Two questions for biblical literalists

[logical bob]

Hello all. I've been trying to better understand the belief that the Bible is literally true. These discussions always seem to focus on Genesis; creation and the flood have been endlessly debated. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two questions about different books. I'm addressing these questions to the people who believe in the flood and the creation of a young earth in 6 days.

1. Is the book of Job literally true? Was there an actual guy to whom bad things happened to settle an argument between God and the devil?

2. What do you make of the Song of Solomon?

I won't argue with anyone who responds. I'm just trying to understand the belief. Thanks for your time.

 

[ivdavid]

Hi logical bob.... again,

I'm addressing these questions to the people who believe in the flood and the creation of a young earth in 6 days.

Well Bob, you've titled this thread - 'two questions for biblical literalists' and then you ask whether we believe literally in these 2 books in the Bible. I know it's too obvious for you to actually stop there...

I won't argue with anyone who responds. I'm just trying to understand the belief. Thanks for your time.

That's why I find this disclaimer hard to believe - I see it more as a seemingly innocuous statement on the surface that seems to convey genuine curiosity while actually slipping in some discriminating points that you've found in those 2 books.( I'm just joking)

So, yeah - shoot your other questions....I might take some time to reply, (getting a feverish headache) but there'll be someone to keep this discussion going....

 

[WordSwordsman]

I've read of and heard testimonies of some people who have possibly suffered longer and harder than Job until saved and delivered. Some suffered too much, living in an induced coma, waking up to find their limbs gone, family dead, with no hope, and not restored as was Job. For me there is no problem believing a real Job is the subject of the Book of Job. I think lots of folks totally misunderstand Job because it is used often, in error, to teach that God uses Satan to test us or teach us lessons. Job was a man subject to the covenants prior to the Mosaic Covenant, chiefly the Noahic Covenant. Christians are subject to the New Covenant, not under domination of sin or the Devil, but to Christ and His righteousness. Most of the advice given Job was not our example even though some true factual statements were made, until the end when he finally heard from God. To best appreciate the end one needs to read the whole thing.

The Song of Solomon is probably the last to be understood, most readers never getting past the literal materialistic perspective because of our cultural values. The book deserves it's place in canon, but must be understood spiritually with the aid of the rest of the Bible. The New Testament is not necessary for help in comprehending it, but that one does illuminate the New Covenant. If anyone has trouble dealing with the woman of Luke 7:36-50 that poured the precious oil on Jesus' feet, showing profound love, then Song of Solomon will be hard to handle. I sense the woman fully held the spiritual intent of the writing and applied it properly to Jesus, even though called a sinner and supposedly not capable of such knowledge. It was that depth of love Jesus deserves from all of us, but most people never get around to such love expression. What she did is the essence of Song of Solomon. The natural man might be offended with it, as was Simon the Pharisee witnessing the above event.

The best exposition I have read for Song of Solomon is "Christ and the Bride" by Cora Harris Mc Ilravy (1916), a copy of it at http://joannareyburn.com/files/ChristHisBridechap1-10.pdf It will take you on quite a journey of the scriptures and perhaps help the Spirit open eyes to a depth of love from and toward Jesus such as few realize until late in a lifetime of Bible study otherwise.

Keep in mind the true but for some hard to accept 1 Cor. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Maybe the popular understanding of "literal" concerning use of the Bible is a great misunderstanding. The Bible should be taken literally on face value whenever it is obviously not using symbols or otherwise couching a teaching in some other style of literature than the surrounding context. The Bible contains a huge amount of typos, shadows, forms, allegories, parables, figures, symbols, signs, etc. such that of course not all sayings are to be taken in a literal sense on their face value alone, but should be accepted as true sayings maybe hard to understand initially. By faith you wait for the spiritual understanding, which when it comes, makes a confusing face-value statement make more sense taken literally. They are true because all of them are different ways of describing spiritual truths from God, sometimes using seemingly fantastic examples. It would not make sense for God to inspire any saying that is based on a lie or unrealistic fable, so in fact all the mysteries are revealed somewhere in the canonized scriptures.

 

[dan p]

Hello all. I've been trying to better understand the belief that the Bible is literally true. These discussions always seem to focus on Genesis; creation and the flood have been endlessly debated. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two questions about different books. I'm addressing these questions to the people who believe in the flood and the creation of a young earth in 6 days.

1. Is the book of Job literally true? Was there an actual guy to whom bad things happened to settle an argument between God and the devil?

2. What do you make of the Song of Solomon?

I won't argue with anyone who responds. I'm just trying to understand the belief. Thanks for your time.

Hi logical bob , and I will only comment on the Song 0f Solomon . The Song of Solomon DESCRIBES what the First 3 chapters of the book of the Revealation is written to the 7 Churches in Asia . It reads from and describes why Israel is in the MESS and How they got into that position . You can google the following site and read the 9 pages that reveal the S O S . http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org , and look for 2008 issues in Feb , Mar, and Apr , written by Steve Shobar , and you will not be disappointed . The book of the Revelation HAS NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ or the Dispensation of the Grace of God .
I do have and OP , on the END TIMES section , second page tited , The Revelations first 3 chapters .

 

[watchman F]

Hello all. I've been trying to better understand the belief that the Bible is literally true. These discussions always seem to focus on Genesis; creation and the flood have been endlessly debated. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two questions about different books. I'm addressing these questions to the people who believe in the flood and the creation of a young earth in 6 days.

1. Is the book of Job literally true? Was there an actual guy to whom bad things happened to settle an argument between God and the devil?

2. What do you make of the Song of Solomon?

I won't argue with anyone who responds. I'm just trying to understand the belief. Thanks for your time.

1. Is the book of Job literally true? Was there an actual guy to whom bad things happened to settle an argument between God and the devil? Yes

2. What do you make of the Song of Solomon? This is a peace of poetic literature Solomon literally wrote.

 

[elijah23]

Hello all. I've been trying to better understand the belief that the Bible is literally true. These discussions always seem to focus on Genesis; creation and the flood have been endlessly debated. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two questions about different books. I'm addressing these questions to the people who believe in the flood and the creation of a young earth in 6 days.

1. Is the book of Job literally true? Was there an actual guy to whom bad things happened to settle an argument between God and the devil?

2. What do you make of the Song of Solomon?

I won't argue with anyone who responds. I'm just trying to understand the belief. Thanks for your time.

As far as I know, the book of Job is literally true.

As far as the Song of Solomon goes, I am not married, so I don’t pay much attention to it.

 

[DarcyLu]

As far as the Song of Solomon goes, I am not married, so I don’t pay much attention to it.

the Song of Solomon is the relationship between Christ and the Church.

 

[DarcyLu]

Hello all. I've been trying to better understand the belief that the Bible is literally true. These discussions always seem to focus on Genesis; creation and the flood have been endlessly debated. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two questions about different books. I'm addressing these questions to the people who believe in the flood and the creation of a young earth in 6 days.

1. Is the book of Job literally true? Was there an actual guy to whom bad things happened to settle an argument between God and the devil?

2. What do you make of the Song of Solomon?

I won't argue with anyone who responds. I'm just trying to understand the belief. Thanks for your time.

1). yes, Job is real, all that is written really happened and there is WAY more to the story than simply to "settle an argument between God and the devil".

2). it's an allegory of Christ and the Church

 

[watchman F]

As far as the Song of Solomon goes, I am not married, so I don’t pay much attention to it.

the Song of Solomon is the relationship between Christ and the Church.

Exactly DarcyLu. I have a teaching on the Bridal Paradigm. When people get a hold of this revelation we would need to discuss OSAS, or carnal Christians. We will be so in love with Jesus, sin would no longer be a option.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Hello all. I've been trying to better understand the belief that the Bible is literally true. These discussions always seem to focus on Genesis; creation and the flood have been endlessly debated. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two questions about different books. I'm addressing these questions to the people who believe in the flood and the creation of a young earth in 6 days.

1. Is the book of Job literally true? Was there an actual guy to whom bad things happened to settle an argument between God and the devil?

2. What do you make of the Song of Solomon?

I won't argue with anyone who responds. I'm just trying to understand the belief. Thanks for your time.

- The bible is both literally and spiritually true.
1) Yes the book of job is literal and teaches us spiritual truth and lessons at the same time. However it is not about settling an arguement between God and satan. God does not argue with Satan, God has full and total reign on satan and in this case God used satan to try and prove Job. It was GOD who pointed out Job to satan, which THEN caused satan to ask to do the things to Job that he did and GOD gave the permission.- God uses all things for the good of those who love him and fiery trials are good for us. So YES it literally happened AND it LITERALLY happens NOW also.

2)Song of Solomon is written by Solomon about one of his wives but is meant to be a prophetic parrell poem about Christ and us His bride.

 

[WordSwordsman]

1) Yes the book of job is literal and teaches us spiritual truth and lessons at the same time. However it is not about settling an arguement between God and satan. God does not argue with Satan, God has full and total reign on satan and in this case God used satan to try and prove Job. It was GOD who pointed out Job to satan, which THEN caused satan to ask to do the things to Job that he did and GOD gave the permission.- God uses all things for the good of those who love him and fiery trials are good for us. So YES it literally happened AND it LITERALLY happens NOW also.

:crazy I totally disagree. I'll point out that a huge portion of Job is dialogue from Job's friends whose advice is bad. Job 42:7 "And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

God did not choose to test Job. God's word says Job was already "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". Satan was the one wanting to test God's faith in Job. Job 1:11 "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face."

God is big enough to allow such a challenge that one time, but had no part in affecting Job. He already knew Job's end because he knew those facts about Job.

Job 1:12 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord."

Never again will God do such a thing, certainly not to a just man. Jesus promised abundant life, which is not what Job endured. Jesus defeated Satan, removed his authority, stripped him of power. Satan poured out his wrath, but now the wrath of God is set to come over the children of disobedience.

The New Testament doesn't have God testing anyone like He allowed Satan to do. There is no New Testament teaching that God uses Satan as His "whipping boy" against the Church, certainly not bringing curses on His children.

Most totally miss the main lesson of Job, which teaches what Jesus put in a nutshell. John 10:10 "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Rather than accept that Satan might come doing to me what he did to Job, I believe this applies to the Church today if any will hold to it:
Luke 10:17-20 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. [18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. [19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. [20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

 

[logical bob]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I follow up the links to further reading over the next few days.

(Just as a PS, I realise I was grossly simplifying Job when I refered to it as an argument between God and the devil.)

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

1) Yes the book of job is literal and teaches us spiritual truth and lessons at the same time. However it is not about settling an arguement between God and satan. God does not argue with Satan, God has full and total reign on satan and in this case God used satan to try and prove Job. It was GOD who pointed out Job to satan, which THEN caused satan to ask to do the things to Job that he did and GOD gave the permission.- God uses all things for the good of those who love him and fiery trials are good for us. So YES it literally happened AND it LITERALLY happens NOW also.

:crazy I totally disagree. I'll point out that a huge portion of Job is dialogue from Job's friends whose advice is bad. Job 42:7 "And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

God did not choose to test Job. God's word says Job was already "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil". Satan was the one wanting to test God's faith in Job. Job 1:11 "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face."

God is big enough to allow such a challenge that one time, but had no part in affecting Job. He already knew Job's end because he knew those facts about Job.

Job 1:12 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord."

Never again will God do such a thing, certainly not to a just man. Jesus promised abundant life, which is not what Job endured. Jesus defeated Satan, removed his authority, stripped him of power. Satan poured out his wrath, but now the wrath of God is set to come over the children of disobedience.

The New Testament doesn't have God testing anyone like He allowed Satan to do. There is no New Testament teaching that God uses Satan as His "whipping boy" against the Church, certainly not bringing curses on His children.

Most totally miss the main lesson of Job, which teaches what Jesus put in a nutshell. John 10:10 "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Rather than accept that Satan might come doing to me what he did to Job, I believe this applies to the Church today if any will hold to it:
Luke 10:17-20 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. [18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. [19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. [20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

It is true that much of what job's friends said was wrong, that doesnt change that it was Gods purpose to try Him and that God used Satan to do it as God does not try anyone but satan does but that God has our good in mind for it.And we do see it in the NT layed out clearly. God has always done this.

Luk 22:31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

the NT is full of how we will have fiery trials for our good, how we will be tried, tempted, proved just as Jesus was in the wilderness. It is true that we are given dominion over the enemy because of Jesus if we are in Jesus becuase He is in us however that does not stop him from being given permission to try and tempt us as Job for our good. and we have the power in Christ to remain faithful and resist him.

 

[Mike]

I absolutely LOVE Job chapters 38 and beyond in the book. When God unleashes on Job:

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

and the verses to follow. He really puts us in our place. I understand when people get upset with Him and question things going on before. But in the end, we have to come to an understanding that He is and always was. We can not fathom His purposes. These chapters are among my favorites in the OT. My signature speaks to my response to them. I trust the Lord.