Bible Study Unlocking yourself from "James".

[Kidron]

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I find that a lot of good and honest believer's are mentally locked inside ONE VERSE found in James, and they are so completely locked by it, that all the words of Paul are like contradictions to them.

So, lets get you unlocked, if you are locked, and you'll recognize yourself as locked by what im about to write to you.

First of all.
Will you agree that if you dont know something, then you cant teach it?
I'll ask you again...
If you dont know something, then you cant teach it. ?????
Does this make sense to you?
Then if it does, then lets look at >one verse< in one early letter, by James..

This....

"we see, maintain, then that a person is justified-considered righteous, by > works"..

Now, here is how a "james-locked" person reads this...

"we are saved by works and faith, and we are kept saved by works and faith, and if we dont keep working righteous works then we have lost our salvation and die and go to hell in the end because our faith is dead".

So, thats a problem.......its a problem for those people who are locked, and its a problem found on forums where these "james-locked" people continually preach one scripture in James, one scripture out of the entire new testament, as their proof, that salvation is a works based situation that WE have to maintain, or WE lose our salvation.
This is their favorite universal Pet verse to try to prove that your behavior keeps you saved or it keeps you lost.

Now here is what Paul says.

"We concluded that a person is justified by FAITH".
"faith"
"faith"
"faith"

This is understood like this......"you take Jesus and God takes you".
You give God faith in the Gospel, faith in the Son, and God accepts your faith and gives you Salvation, <> Righteousness<> eternal life with Him.

Now, why does Paul preach faith, and James teach works.?????

Its very simple.

Paul was a "later' Apostle who was personally taken aside by Jesus, and given the "revelation of the Grace of God"......to be given to the gentiles, by the "apostle to the Gentiles". = Paul.....in the "time of the gentiles". Romans 11:13 .... Luke 21:24
And while this is going on, Jesus is having to teach Peter in Acts 10 that the gentiles were to be saved, as he didnt even know this, and neither did James, AT THAT TIME.
= At the time Paul is being prepared with this new revelation of the Grace of God, the "gift of righteousness".
So, the whole (seeming) salvation twisted distinction between the epistle of James, vs, Galatians, and Romans, and Titus, and Ephesians, and Colossians, that were written by Paul to teach us the revelation that Jesus gave to Paul concerning SALVATION......is nothing more then a timing issue.

So, the timing issue...= the EARLY epistle of James was written before he understood the revelation that Jesus gave to Paul LATER.
And this is why James is talking about Works, while Paul is taking about "Faith" alone, to be saved, justified, redeemed, sanctified....ect.

So, James cant teach what he does not know yet, and we shouldn't teach what James didn't know about, taken from a single and early letter, as Salvation.
If we do that, then we are teaching heresy, as we are denying the Cross and the blood atonement as ONLY what SAVES us and keeps us saved, without any works.
We dont want to be found doing that, as that is as anti the Gospel as could be preached.
That is anathema according to Paul in Galatians 1:8
So, dont do that.

 

[Edward]

Hmmm. I'm not a professor of works based salvation, but I do have a question...

Is it possible that there's more to it?
I cringed just little when you said, don't teach James, that's wrong...

Other scriptures are coming to mind, like, my Word will never pass away,
I think if it was wrong that it wouldn't be in scripture...??
And another one, the one that says,something like I'll show you my faith by my works...

That wouldn't mean that salvation is works based but rather that real faith produces action in the believer...like a cause/effect which just happens and always will produce good works as a result of real faith, as a fruit..??

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

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I find that a lot of good and honest believer's are mentally locked inside ONE VERSE found in James, and they are so completely locked by it, that all the words of Paul are like contradictions to them.

So, lets get you unlocked, if you are locked, and you'll recognize yourself as locked by what im about to write to you.

First of all.
Will you agree that if you dont know something, then you cant teach it?
I'll ask you again...
If you dont know something, then you cant teach it. ?????
Does this make sense to you?
Then if it does, then lets look at >one verse< in one early letter, by James..

This....

"we see, maintain, then that a person is justified-considered righteous, by > works"..

Now, here is how a "james-locked" person reads this...

"we are saved by works and faith, and we are kept saved by works and faith, and if we dont keep working righteous works then we have lost our salvation and die and go to hell in the end because our faith is dead".

So, thats a problem.......its a problem for those people who are locked, and its a problem found on forums where these "james-locked" people continually preach one scripture in James, one scripture out of the entire new testament, as their proof, that salvation is a works based situation that WE have to maintain, or WE lose our salvation.
This is their favorite universal Pet verse to try to prove that your behavior keeps you saved or it keeps you lost.

Now here is what Paul says.

"We concluded that a person is justified by FAITH".
"faith"
"faith"
"faith"

This is understood like this......"you take Jesus and God takes you".
You give God faith in the Gospel, faith in the Son, and God accepts your faith and gives you Salvation, <> Righteousness<> eternal life with Him.

Now, why does Paul preach faith, and James teach works.?????

Its very simple.

Paul was a "later' Apostle who was personally taken aside by Jesus, and given the "revelation of the Grace of God"......to be given to the gentiles, by the "apostle to the Gentiles". = Paul.....in the "time of the gentiles". Romans 11:13 .... Luke 21:24
And while this is going on, Jesus is having to teach Peter in Acts 10 that the gentiles were to be saved, as he didnt even know this, and neither did James, AT THAT TIME.
= At the time Paul is being prepared with this new revelation of the Grace of God, the "gift of righteousness".
So, the whole (seeming) salvation twisted distinction between the epistle of James, vs, Galatians, and Romans, and Titus, and Ephesians, and Colossians, that were written by Paul to teach us the revelation that Jesus gave to Paul concerning SALVATION......is nothing more then a timing issue.

So, the timing issue...= the EARLY epistle of James was written before he understood the revelation that Jesus gave to Paul LATER.
And this is why James is talking about Works, while Paul is taking about "Faith" alone, to be saved, justified, redeemed, sanctified....ect.

So, James cant teach what he does not know yet, and we shouldn't teach what James didn't know about, taken from a single and early letter, as Salvation.
If we do that, then we are teaching heresy, as we are denying the Cross and the blood atonement as ONLY what SAVES us and keeps us saved, without any works.
We dont want to be found doing that, as that is as anti the Gospel as could be preached.
That is anathema according to Paul in Galatians 1:8
So, dont do that.

So the question becomes, why does God allow a verse to be in his Bible that does not agree with Paul?
If it's a timing issue, then maybe God was out to lunch for a few years.
How else can you explain it?

 

[reba]

I do not trust a teaching that teaches something to this effect .. This verse/Book of God's Word doesn't suit my thoughts so lets say it does not belong ... Some folks would have division, teach division. .. Dividing the Jew from God's family. Gods Word say this.. Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

We concluded that a person is justified by FAITH".
"faith"
"faith"

Yes.

Now all you have to do is understand the principle of faith that causes faith to produce a divine result.

It's called obedience.

Without you doing what you hear God speak to you, which is HOW faith comes, then your faith is dead, just like a body without the spirit is dead.

Go and study faith, and the principles that Govern the law of faith, and then you will be approved and not be a workman who is ashamed.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15

Please take your own advice and study what faith is, and what makes faith work, and what it means to have something by faith, and have something in reality.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I do not trust a teaching that teaches something to this effect .. This verse/Book of God's Word doesn't suit my thoughts so lets say it does not belong ... Some folks would have division, teach division. .. Dividing the Jew from God's family. Gods Word say this.. Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The voice of Wisdom!

 

[Kidron]

So the question becomes, why does God allow a verse to be in his Bible that does not agree with Paul?
If it's a timing issue, then maybe God was out to lunch for a few years.
How else can you explain it?

The verse is in the bible because its what James wrote.
So, the issue isn't that its in the bible, or that James said it, the issue is that we are instructed to "rightly divided the word of God"....and this means to not misapply scriptures so that false understanding (heresy) is created.
So, JAMES is not contradicting Paul's revelation of the Grace of God...but rather its a believer who has not spent 5 seconds of their entire Christian life, "rightly dividing the word", who does nothing more with a New Testament then just jam every scripture into every other scripture as if there are no distinctions or separations.
The only separation they have understood is.....Old Testament <> New Testament.
This is why if you show them something like what Peter is preaching in Acts 2:38, vs, what Paul preaches in Galatians 1:8, they will say...."oh, its all the same".......when it fact its NOT the same, at all.
And often if you show them what is going on, and how there are lots of divisions in the bible, even withn the NT, they will just say...."well, scripture is scripture, and its all the same, and is it noon yet so that we can get out of here and go get that Sunday brunch...".
But thats not the truth, and we as believer's have to be about the Truth, exactly as the Bible has to be about the business of leading us into the Truth.
So, its up to each of us not to be scripturally illiterate and lost in heresy.
Its our job, its a huge part of our spiritual vocation as a disciple of Jesus to know a LOT about the NT, and not just John 3:16, or one verse in James or a Psalm.
A born again believer should know that Paul is the gentile apostle, Romans 11:13 and NOT the others, and that we are in the "time of the gentiles" Luke 21:24 , and from that they should have been immersing themselves in Paul's letters much more then the other letters during their baby christian years, so that they are grounded and grown and matured regarding how God has revealed Salvation through Grace (through PAUL)..
This is baby christian 101.
Baby christian 101 is to go and study ....Romans 3: 21-26 , Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians...

And the reason a believer gets so screwed up in their head, in their theology, is because they are getting lost in James and Matthew and the very advanced HEBREWS by Paul, instead of getting SOLID in their salvation theology FIRST, by studying the Gentile Apostle's epistles, that i listed.
This is why Paul tells us to ""be imitators-follows of Him"""....and no other apostle tells you this specific instruction.
This is why Peter, in 2nd Peter , states that Paul's letters, are EQUAL to the TORAH.....that is PETER the apostle = describing Paul's letters as SCRIPTURE long before they were ever put in a Bible.
So, Paul is the Apostle that God chose to write most of the NT, and if a believer is not aware of this and the reason for it, then this explains why they are weak or backwards regarding their salvation theology and usually found completely lost within James or Hebrews or Matthew.

 

[Sinthesis]

Jhn 14:12 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Rev 2:26 - And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

1Co 13:13 - And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1Co 13:2 - And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.​

Clearly Jesus expects work from His followers. James' teaching that one's faith is made complete by how it informs our actions, is supported by Paul's teaching that charity is the worldly fruit of faith in Jesus Christ. There is no contradiction between James and Paul if you understand the correct context.

 

[Kidron]

Yes.

Now all you have to do is understand the principle of faith that causes faith to produce a divine result.

It's called obedience.

JLB

The only "obedience" that God will accept on your behalf to save you, is when you believe the gospel and trust Christ.
And what you are confusing with this that saves, is, you are confusing what comes after you are saved, and are trying to combine them as one.
What you are doing is committing the common error of confusing Salvation, that God does for you, without your works, .... you are confusing the free gift of Salvation with discipleship, which is what you do, AFTER you are saved, and not to become saved.

So, her is how you can use this in a sentence... as maybe this will help you.

""Now that im saved, i'll go and be a good disciple, understanding that what i do as a disciple AFTER im saved has NOTHING TO DO with God saving me which then created me to be a disciple.""

You do understand that its Salvation that has happened to you, that creates you to be a disciple?

Because what you write is saying....."by my discipleship im saving myself".
And that is not possible as you cant save yourself.
God saves you, and then you are saved.
Works has nothing to do with this, at all.

I think what will help you, is to study Romans 3:21- 26 for a while so that you can free yourself from the idea that your righteous works play any part in your becoming a Christian.

 

[Kidron]

. James' teaching that one's faith is made complete by how it informs our actions, is supported by Paul's teaching that charity is the worldly fruit of faith in Jesus Christ. There is no contradiction between James and Paul if you understand the correct context.​

There is no contradiction between an early epistle of James and the later revelation of the Grace of God as taught by Paul, unless someone is trying to teach that the blood atonement is not completed unless you go about doing righteous works.
However, as soon as that heresy is taught, then the person becomes Galatians 1:8.
Usually, a person who is trying to say..."yes, Christ saves me as long as i go and do the good works", is simply not understanding anything that Paul wrote here........ Romans 3:21-26.

More simply stated, is that a person who is teaching Faith + Works, = salvation, is simply not understanding the distinction between Salvation that God freely gives which SaveD us, and Discipleship that we do, after we are saved, that cant save us or keep us saved.​

 

[smaller]

Many similar arguments are made with Paul in the law vs. grace camps.

At some point a few might realize that Paul taught both, and people who can't understand pick sides when there is no side to pick.

There are other ways to get through both sides of the ledgers, that Paul taught. So did James. So did John. So did Peter.

and so did Jesus.

 

[smaller]

I'll give a small(er) example of this seeming dilemma. There is in fact "NO" dilemma.

IN law vs. grace it is the same basic dispute as grace vs. works.

Here Paul gives us an intimate look at his own construction. And what we should find is not just Paul, in the flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Now, any "christian" might perceive this same matter when they engage internal temptations, those being of the tempter. In the same scenario, they too are constructed just as Paul shows for himself.

There was Paul, a child of God saved by faith.

and

There was a messenger of Satan in his flesh aka temptations of the tempter (or his own, as in 'the messenger of' same)

How then might this matter be construed?

The law is against the devil and his messengers. It is used to both expose and convict THEM.

Nevertheless the Spiritual Intentions of the law is to "love our neighbors as ourselves." (Romans 13:8-10)

The messenger of Satan in the flesh CAN NOT do that, and can only "resist" the LAW. The messenger of Satan in the flesh can not perceive or DO the Spiritual Quotient/Commandment of the LAW. It will see the law in any other ways but that way.

There is certainly a carnal or fleshly aspect to the law, but Paul quite clearly says the law is spiritual, upholds same on that basis, and even "commands" works of love be shown in those who believe.

Did Paul then DENY the law or the Spiritual workings of the law in believers? Never. Nor did any of the other Apostles, nor did Jesus.

But we should realize that the law contains the elements whereby RESISTANCE of the RESISTORS are shown in our own hearts.

Jesus shows us clearly that Satan is motivated into adverse resisting actions IN MAN, where the Word is sown in all the seed parables, particularly in Mark 4:15. So it is not just dealing with "man" alone no more than Paul was "alone" in his flesh.

Jesus said that this is "how" we are to understand "all parables" and in fact THE WORD is A PARABLE of this same matter.

Where Jesus is, resistance to Jesus always follows after, by Satan in people's hearts. Yes, even in believers hearts.

The law then is not only our Ally, to reveal lawlessness in ourselves, in the "end game" it is also our ALLY to inflame the devil and his messengers, to "reveal" and "expose" them.

When Jesus in Rev. 2 said that "we" have power over the nations, He Speaks of the nations of DEVILS. And yes, they do have nations and they do have "a generation" that has not ever been destroyed.

There are two parties to the drama's of scripture. Man and devils. Will OSAS or "grace alone" understandings or "atonement" apply to devils, even devils/temptations/the tempter?

NEVER! It can not be so and it won't be so.

No work and no grace and no atonement will avail the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh.

This understanding is also how Paul derived that the flesh is VILE, because it is subject to "intrusions" by the other parties. The flesh itself is just flesh, BUT it is also WEAK and subject to such incursions by other parties. This same aspect is how Paul derived he was 'the chief of sinners' POST salvation, because it's not just about PAUL. It's also about Paul wrestling with the TEMPTER in his own heart.

Now, you have heard THE GOSPEL. Right here, in this post.

Jesus was, in the flesh, a walking talking Parable/Word of God:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

 

[Kidron]

Now, you have heard THE GOSPEL. Right here, in this post.

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Actually you didnt post the gospel that Paul teaches or preaches.
And certainly the Gospel has nothing to do with you having, "power over nations'.
Thats the weirdest idea of presenting a false gospel, that ive ever heard.

Now here is the Gospel., and note that nothing you posted, that you call the "gospel", is similar.

Here is the Gospel as preached by Paul, and nothing else is the "Gospel".
2nd Corinthians 15:3-4

3....For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4.....And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[smaller]

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Actually you didnt post the gospel that Paul teaches or preaches.
And certainly the Gospel has nothing to do with you having, "power over nations'.
Thats the weirdest idea of presenting a false gospel, that ive ever heard.

And that's what I expect to hear from those who don't perceive these matters. We are to "resist" the devil and his INTERNAL temptations. That means, it's more than just "us" internally, in these struggles. This is about as basic of an understanding as is available.

Does your "grace alone" construct address this? Uh, no. It, like all other OSAS constructs, completely ignores the "resistance" parties, which are in fact also "internal."

There is no doctrine that will avail the tempter in the flesh, anything.

 

[reba]

Hold the lines guys between debate and discussion .. do not descend into personal battles.. Admin
Bible Study
A forum for Bible study discussions.
This is not a debate forum.
Moderated by:
Reba,
AirDdancer

 

[JLB]

The only "obedience" that God will accept on your behalf to save you, is when you believe the gospel and trust Christ.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The scripture says confession is made unto salvation.

this initial act of faith, is the act of obedience that activates faith, showing that you have turned from Satan as your lord, and turned to Jesus as Lord.

That is the meaning of Repent;
To turn to God.


JLB

 

[Kidron]

There is no doctrine that will avail the tempter in the flesh, anything.

Im not certain why you are talking about the "tempter of the flesh", on a Thread that is addressing the epistle of James.
edited reba

 

[smaller]

Im not certain why you are talking about the "tempter of the flesh", on a Thread that is addressing the epistle of James.
edited reba

All the Apostles wrote "firmly" against the working of the tempter in anyone.

Therefore any "doctrinal position" that does not take this into account is automatically false.

Conversely, any doctrinal position that denies we have this internal battle, and seeks to justify the entirety of ourselves "inclusive" of the tempter in the flesh, is also, equally automatically false.

James and Paul taught identically in this regards, as do all the other writers.

If you think Paul provided "us" positions that justified the "messenger of Satan" in his own flesh, he didn't. Nor do any of the other writers.

 

[Kidron]

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The scripture says confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

Yes, "confession" is made, once you hear and then believe the "Gospel."
"Faith cometh by HEARING".. Romans 10:17
So, you have to hear the truth, and then believe it and THEN you confess what you have BELIEVED.
Faith, <> Belief <> Confession.
And the bible teaches us that its "faith" that pleases God, and not works.
"for without FAITH, its is IMPOSSIBLE to please God". Hebrews 11:6
Notice how it does not say....works please God, or doing good deeds pleases God, or obeying the commandments PLEASES God???
There is a reason for this, and this is why its so very important to know what the truth is, regarding the Gospel., which shows us why we dont use the epistle of James to try to teach what isn't in it......and what isn't in it, is the Gospel.
You wont find James talking about Jesus shedding his blood for anyone's sins.
You wont find James talking about the Cross.
You wont find James talking about being reconciled back to God.
So, the epistle of James, is not an epistle that tries to teach anything about the atonement, but it does speak in quite a few verses about what a disciple should be doing, = after they are saved.

 

[Kidron]

All the Apostles wrote "firmly" against the working of the tempter in anyone.
Therefore any "doctrinal position" that does not take this into account is automatically false.
Conversely, any doctrinal position that denies we have this internal battle, and seeks to justify the entirety of ourselves "inclusive" of the tempter in the flesh, is also, equally automatically false.
James and Paul taught identically in this regards, as do all the other writers.
If you think Paul provided "us" positions that justified the "messenger of Satan" in his own flesh, he didn't. Nor do any of the other writers.

Let me try again.

This thread is not involved in a discussion of the "tempter".
Ok?
This thread is a discussion about a verse in James that speaks about faith alone not justifying a believer, and how this verse is misunderstood and then based on the misunderstanding is then used to try to contradict the revelation of the Grace of God as taught by Paul.
So, lets stay on topic.