Bible Study Unlocking yourself from "James".

[smaller]

I've about had it with your slants on denying James and any other writer of the Gospels/N.T. who disagree with your slants.

 

[Kidron]

Stop trolling James.

You have not even been able to have a conversation that has anything to do with the Thread's topic, James 2:24 ect..... so, no wonder you think i'm trolling the epistle.
Look, if you want to rant about the "tempter", and how he temps, and why he tempts, and when, and how..... then post a Thread about that separate topic, and i'll be happy to meet you there.
Happy to do it for you.


K

 

[smaller]

You have not even been able to have a conversation that has anything to do with the Thread's topic, so, no wonder you think i'm trolling the epistle.
Look, if you want to rant about the "tempter", and how he temps, then post a Thread about that separate topic, and i'll be happy to meet you there.

K

I think we can be relatively assured that James and Paul were on the same page.

 

[Kidron]

I think we can be relatively assured that James and Paul were on the same page.

James, when he wrote his early epistle, was not on the same page as Paul, regarding the Gospel of the Grace of God that Paul wrote about in many of his epistles that make up about 2/3rd of the NT.
This is why Paul the "apostle to the gentiles" wrote most of the NT to the gentiles, in the "time of the gentiles', .
The reason James in his early epistle wasn't on the same page with Paul, is the same reason that Peter in Acts 2 and in Acts 10, also wasn't on the same page as Paul, regarding "grace through faith".
That is to say....they didnt know yet, what Paul was YET to bringing to the church.
So, as i asked you in my thread....."can a person teach what they dont know"?
Now, you seem to think that James can teach in his early epistle what he does not yet even know ,...however, its impossible for him to teach what he does not yet know.

 

[smaller]

James, [snipped] was not on the same page as Paul, regarding the Gospel

I think that sight is severely misguided and has no place in christian theology.

 

[reba]

closed for review ...

 

[reba]

a couple notes before i re-open this thread..
TOS
2.6: A member may not impose additional rules upon threads by claiming on/off topic or by other means. Moderators will enforce only the rules as included in the ToS and are not obligated to enforce regulations promoted by a member. . . .
Threads started by members become the property of christianforums.net as cited in ToS 1:11 and are not to be considered as a member's thread or otherwise "owned".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

Please leave the moderating to the moderators... Once a member has retaliated both are in error.. Between discussion and debate is a tight fence please learn to walk it..

Most likely i will be cleaning up these 2 pages
reba

 

[Kidron]

I think that sight is severely misguided and has no place in christian theology.

Actually,
the history of the church, and the letters written by the Apostles, are all the NT historical significant data we use to understand how God is dealing with His Body of Christ in the "time of the gentiles".
So, its very important that we understand that there is a "time" history of the Acts of the Apostles which we have to acknowledge in our study of the word to genuinely understand how to "rightly divided" it.

Consider that the phrase "study to show thyself approved", is an Apostle <> New Testament" scripture, so, when Paul said this, there was no New Testament to study......However, the case has changed, and now, we as a New Testament Christ centered church are living in a dispensation, that the NT labels as the "time of the Gentiles".
And, Jesus has given us a specific Apostle , Paul, who has been designated by the other apostles in the book of Acts, as the gentile Apostle, and Paul himself has proclaimed himself as the "apostle to the gentiles". Romans 11:13
So, as he is that particular apostle, and no other, and as we are living in the "time of the gentiles", then we conclude that what he teaches is going to be the reveal, the revelation, of the NT doctrines that will govern the body of Christ, in the age of the gentile church that we live in.
This is why most of the NT was written by Paul, and this is why Jesus choose Paul, when He already had 11 others He could have shown, but instead He chose Paul LATER for a specific JOB, and that is to instruct the NT church in the revelation <> doctrine thats entitled the "Pauline Doctrine", and that is, the doctrine of "Justification by Faith". "imputed righteousness" "free gift of righteousness".
This didnt come to you from any other apostle, and that is why you study the epistles of Paul to get the revelation of the Grace of God through Faith.
And once you come to understand this, then you can become unlocked from the early epistle of James, who didnt know at that time he wrote his early letter anything about "justification by Faith", as given by Jesus, to Paul, to us.

 

[smaller]

This is probably not the section to discuss this matter, but, for informational purposes, postures that pit Apostles against each other OR prioritize Paul over the O.T. or even pit Paul against other Apostles is generally termed as a form of Marcionism, a fairly common form of heresy today, with some several different forms of mutations that bear remarkably similar postures to what you're trying.

 

[smaller]

I'd also submit that you can arrive at "your intended conclusions" and not have to denigrate or deride James' writings in the process.

 

[JLB]

Actually,
the history of the church, and the letters written by the Apostles, are all the NT historical significant data we use to understand how God is dealing with His Body of Christ in the "time of the gentiles".
So, its very important that we understand that there is a "time" history of the Acts of the Apostles which we have to acknowledge in our study of the word to genuinely understand how to "rightly divided" it.

Consider that the phrase "study to show thyself approved", is an Apostle <> New Testament" scripture, so, when Paul said this, there was no New Testament to study......However, the case has changed, and now, we as a New Testament Christ centered church are living in a dispensation, that the NT labels as the "time of the Gentiles".
And, Jesus has given us a specific Apostle , Paul, who has been designated by the other apostles in the book of Acts, as the gentile Apostle, and Paul himself has proclaimed himself as the "apostle to the gentiles". Romans 11:13
So, as he is that particular apostle, and no other, and as we are living in the "time of the gentiles", then we conclude that what he teaches is going to be the reveal, the revelation, of the NT doctrines that will govern the body of Christ, in the age of the gentile church that we live in.
This is why most of the NT was written by Paul, and this is why Jesus choose Paul, when He already had 11 others He could have shown, but instead He chose Paul LATER for a specific JOB, and that is to instruct the NT church in the revelation <> doctrine thats entitled the "Pauline Doctrine", and that is, the doctrine of "Justification by Faith". "imputed righteousness" "free gift of righteousness".
This didnt come to you from any other apostle, and that is why you study the epistles of Paul to get the revelation of the Grace of God through Faith.
And once you come to understand this, then you can become unlocked from the early epistle of James, who didnt know at that time he wrote his early letter anything about "justification by Faith", as given by Jesus, to Paul, to us.

Here is what Paul wrote to Timothy.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16

...Instruction in righteousness.
...Doctrine

that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:17


By your reasoning, we should ignore Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, because they only addressed Jews.


JLB

 

[Corn Pop]

I just figured it out while study. Pauls a stumbling block.

Someone is lying. Its either Paul, or christianity.

Im taking Pauls word when he was in the judgement seat.

No wonder everything has been taken out of context.

 

[younglite]

When you read that "it's not of works," in Eph 2:8-9, it means dead works, not good works. Paul makes a distinction between the two. Read Hebrews 6:1 and 9:14, and read Rev 3:1. These are dead works. So Paul meant the same in Ephesians when he said it is not of works, meaning dead works of the law. He clearly says in the next verse (Eph 2:10) that we were created for good works (as opposed to the dead works he just spoke of).

This is not contradictory with what James said. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is dead. God said they honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me (Isaiah 29:13). Romans 1:5 says we have received grace for the obedience of faith. At the end of the day, your primary sign of salvation is the heart that is bent toward God, and pleasing Him through obedience. That is faith. And good works will be the overflow - the evidence - of that faith. Since no one can see a man's heart, we can only see their works (fruit) to see what kind of tree they are. James knows that it's only by faith - and the accompanying evidence of works that comprises a Christian's life.

I think it's good that you are trying to guard against works-based salvation. Matt. 7:21 is certainly one of the scariest verses in all of Scripture, and refers to dead works. But be careful to not swing the pendulum too far, and make the distinction between earning salvation (dead works) and having the evidence of it (good works flowing from faith).

 

[jocor]

When you read that "it's not of works," in Eph 2:8-9, it means dead works, not good works. Paul makes a distinction between the two. Read Hebrews 6:1 and 9:14, and read Rev 3:1. These are dead works. So Paul meant the same in Ephesians when he said it is not of works, meaning dead works of the law. He clearly says in the next verse (Eph 2:10) that we were created for good works (as opposed to the dead works he just spoke of).

Where do you get the phrase "dead works of the law" from? Can you provide an example of that? For example, is it a "dead work of the law" to honor your father and mother, or to love thy neighbor or to love Yahweh, or to not steal, etc.? I would say those are all good works that we were ordained to walk in.

 

[younglite]

"Dead works of the law" is my phrase for clarification. Paul calls it the "works of the law" or the "law of works." (see Romans 3:20-28 and Galatians 3:1-10). This doesn't mean it's wrong to do these laws. He just means that trying to earn salvation via these works is known as "dead works."

Put yourself in Paul's shoes. He was trained that following the rules was the end game, not faith. As a result, he emphasizes faith in these passages. that it is by faith you are saved. He is also clear that we are created for "good works," as opposed to earning salvation via your own effort of following the law. Good works are works done in faith. It is the evidence of - not the earning of - your salvation. Apart from the evidence, he and other believers in the NT didn't believe you could have faith inwardly, thus James' penned words.

I agree with you. We should obey all moral laws in the 10 commandments and the great commandments. But it should be done out of our faith in Christ, not wishing that our own efforts will save us.

 

[jocor]

"Dead works of the law" is my phrase for clarification. Paul calls it the "works of the law" or the "law of works." (see Romans 3:20-28 and Galatians 3:1-10). This doesn't mean it's wrong to do these laws. He just means that trying to earn salvation via these works is known as "dead works."

Put yourself in Paul's shoes. He was trained that following the rules was the end game, not faith. As a result, he emphasizes faith in these passages. that it is by faith you are saved. He is also clear that we are created for "good works," as opposed to earning salvation via your own effort of following the law. Good works are works done in faith. It is the evidence of - not the earning of - your salvation. Apart from the evidence, he and other believers in the NT didn't believe you could have faith inwardly, thus James' penned words.

I agree with you. We should obey all moral laws in the 10 commandments and the great commandments. But it should be done out of our faith in Christ, not wishing that our own efforts will save us.