Vessels of Destruction - Take 2

[MarkT]

All for whom Christ died, will keep His commandments. By the obedience [His death] of one [ That being Christ] shall many be made righteous. rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The word righteous is the greek word

dikaios: and it means many things, which are:

righteous, observing divine laws

a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God

So keeping the commandments of God is a benefit and effect of the obedience of Christ..

All for who He died will be made obedient..

So those who are not, Christ did not die for them..They were always vessels of destruction..

Obedience leads to righteousness. Of course through Jesus Christ. But I wouldn't say keeping the commandments is an effect of the obedience of Christ, because Christ died for all. If it was an effect of Christ's obedience, then everyone would be obedient. But such is not the case. You might say it's an effect of the Holy Spirit. I think in a round about way that's what you are trying to say. It's an effect of our love of God and Jesus. Jesus said, 'if you love me'. If you are born of the Spirit of God, you will keep his commandments.

 

[savedbygrace57]

markt:

But I wouldn't say keeping the commandments is an effect of the obedience of Christ,

Then you deny the Truth of rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you also deny that by the disobedience of one, many were made sinners ?

 

[Drew]

Why does it hardly seem possible? Do you think we are perfect? No. Satan continually accuses us of doing wrong. We do good if we keep the commandments.

This is not the point. Nothing in any of my arguments would lead to the conclusion that we are perfect. My argument was that Paul is not embracing any kind of "spirit" vs "flesh" dualism.

Paul said, Romans 7:15, “I do not understand my own actions.......................25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.â€

I think this is pretty self explanatory. We are weak, and almost as a rule, we crumble in the face of temptation. Not that we cannot resist the devil. We can. But this world isn’t easy. The road is hard, and the gate is narrow. Now, I know exactly what Paul is saying. Sin dwells within us, that is, within our members, and we are almost held captive to the law of sin. We are sinners.

First of all, I have argued that Paul is not really talking about human beings in general here. Why? Because he is talking about, yes, the Law of Moses, and its effect on the "I".

I am quite confident that Paul is talking about non-believing Jews here in Romans 7. I have not reviewed the thread, but I believe I have already argued this point. If not, I am happy to make the case.

The fact that we all struggle with sin does not, by itself, mean that Paul is talking about all people here in Romans 7. For example, if it is otherwise clear that a certain text is describing the struggles of actor X with alchohol, the fact that other people struggle with alchohol does not change the fact that the text is specifically addressing actor X.

Remember - not every Bible text is "about us".

 

[Drew]

.....We are sinners. That doesn’t mean we cannot do good; that’s not what Paul is saying.

No. Paul says what he says!:

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing

Please do not change the text. Paul is clearly saying that the "I" cannot, yes, cannot, do good.

Therefore, since Christians are to be molded into the image of Jesus, Paul cannot be talking about Christians here.

 

[Drew]

Am I to understand that you reject the soul and the spirit?

Well, it depends what you mean. I do indeed reject the notion that the Bilble teaches the existence of a consciousness-bearing immaterial "soul" that "inhabits"
a physical body. That is a greek idea and not part of the mind-set of the Jew (like Paul).

But, of course, I am fully aware that there is this concept of "soul" in the Bible. While it is used to refer to a number of things - sometimes the "whole person" - it is never used as we often use it in the 21st century west, that is, to refer to an immaterial consciousness-bearing "part" of the overall human person.

And, along the lines of what Free has said, I agree entirely that God breathed "spirit" into man.

So I entirely accept the notions of spirit and soul, I just think we have misunderstood them in the west becuase we are so strongly influenced by greek dualism.

Don’t just dismiss the Greek worldview.

I think a good case can be made that while Paul was to some degree "Hellenized", his message is essentially Jewish. And the Jews did not buy into body-soul dualism.

 

[MarkT]

markt:



Then you deny the Truth of rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you also deny that by the disobedience of one, many were made sinners ?

I don't think I'm denying the truth. Paul said by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. We are made righteous or clean by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[MarkT]

Well, it depends what you mean. I do indeed reject the notion that the Bilble teaches the existence of a consciousness-bearing immaterial "soul" that "inhabits"
a physical body. That is a greek idea and not part of the mind-set of the Jew (like Paul).

But, of course, I am fully aware that there is this concept of "soul" in the Bible. While it is used to refer to a number of things - sometimes the "whole person" - it is never used as we often use it in the 21st century west, that is, to refer to an immaterial consciousness-bearing "part" of the overall human person.

And, along the lines of what Free has said, I agree entirely that God breathed "spirit" into man.

So I entirely accept the notions of spirit and soul, I just think we have misunderstood them in the west becuase we are so strongly influenced by greek dualism.


I think a good case can be made that while Paul was to some degree "Hellenized", his message is essentially Jewish. And the Jews did not buy into body-soul dualism.

I don't know what the Jews bought into. I'm not interested. Jesus called the Jewish scholars vipers, and sons of the devil. As you must know by now, I am against your teachers. That's not something I can change. They have no authority over me. The scholars are against me as they were against Jesus, and I am against the scholars. There's a vast gulf between us in our understanding. You are of this world, about studying and philosophy. I am not of this world. I'm as different from you as night and day.

My authority comes from above. Your's comes from below. Christ is my authority and the Holy Spirit is my witness.

Colossians 2:8 RSV
See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

 

[Alabaster]

Well, it depends what you mean. I do indeed reject the notion that the Bilble teaches the existence of a consciousness-bearing immaterial "soul" that "inhabits"
a physical body. That is a greek idea and not part of the mind-set of the Jew (like Paul).

But, of course, I am fully aware that there is this concept of "soul" in the Bible. While it is used to refer to a number of things - sometimes the "whole person" - it is never used as we often use it in the 21st century west, that is, to refer to an immaterial consciousness-bearing "part" of the overall human person.

And, along the lines of what Free has said, I agree entirely that God breathed "spirit" into man.

So I entirely accept the notions of spirit and soul, I just think we have misunderstood them in the west becuase we are so strongly influenced by greek dualism.


I think a good case can be made that while Paul was to some degree "Hellenized", his message is essentially Jewish. And the Jews did not buy into body-soul dualism.

I hope this helps as demonstration of what the sum of the word teaches:

 

[MarkT]

No. Paul says what he says!:

For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing

Please do not change the text. Paul is clearly saying that the "I" cannot, yes, cannot, do good.

Therefore, since Christians are to be molded into the image of Jesus, Paul cannot be talking about Christians here.

Get yourself an RSV.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Paul says he sees in his members another law at war with the law of his mind, making him captive to the law of sin which dwells in his members. Is there a dualism there? The mind and the flesh? Perhaps Paul wanted to preach the gospel but he couldn't do it because he was tired. He could will himself to go on, but he could not do it. Maybe he was stressed. Maybe he was afraid. Maybe he wanted to keep something for himself and he couldn't give it up. Maybe he was hungry so he stole some food. He uses the word carnal so let's assume he had a carnal desire which made him want to do the thing he hated. I think we all know we would rather be comfortable. He could will himself to reject the carnal desire, but he could not do it.

My own experience is this. I like to go to the track. I don't know if it's a sin, but it takes me away from what I want to do which is to preach the gospel. Why do I go? I don't understand my own actions. I don't need the money. I like the rush that comes from winning. So my body produces the chemistry that makes me do what I don't want to do. I can will myself not to go, but I can not do it. Sooner or later I cave in. The law of sin dwells within me, that is, within the flesh. I can will what is right, but I can not do it. How many times have I neglected more important things to go to the track! Today we understand more about the flesh and the truth; the flesh produces chemicals - hormones which act on the flesh which lead to desires and cravings. Paul said it is no longer I that do it, I meaning the thinker and the speaker, but sin, the covetous desire, is doing it.

When we go to Romans 8 we see, 'therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. To set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you.'

 

[Drew]

I don't know what the Jews bought into. I'm not interested. Jesus called the Jewish scholars vipers, and sons of the devil. As you must know by now, I am against your teachers.

First of all, I have no idea exactly who you consider "my teachers" to be. And in any event, merely declaring you are against them is not very convincing - you need to actually engage the arguments.

The fact that Jesus called some Pharisees "vipers" does not change the fact that Jews wrote the Bible - Old and New Testaments. And the Hebrew culture simply had no sense of the kind of Greek "mind-body" dualism you appear to be embracing. So whether you are "not interested" or not, the proper way to read a text is to understand the cultural context from which it emerges. So when we read "soul" in the Bible, we need to ask "what would a Hebrew writer have meant by such a term, and not simply go with Greek notions which did not substantially undergird the Hebrew (Biblical worldview).

You are of this world, about studying and philosophy. I am not of this world. I'm as different from you as night and day.

I agree that there is a big difference between us, but not the kind you imagine.

My authority comes from above. Your's comes from below.

An outrageous, unsubstantiated slur. You are taking the low road - unable or unwilling to engage my arguments, you take the tired, familiar tactic of demonizing those who do not share your position.

Colossians 2:8 RSV
See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

Since you have no actual grounds to support this implication that I am engaging in deceit, I suggest you pay heed to these words of Jesus:

But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.â€

Mark, let's be clear: you are simply demonizing me - you have provided no actual argument that I am mistaken in my position. Its fine to disagree with me, but please do not take the low road of demonizing rhetoric.

 

[Drew]

I hope this helps as demonstration of what the sum of the word teaches:

I would be more than happy to engage the actual Biblical arguments that you believe support this position on the composition of the human person. I do not think it is Biblically correct.

 

[Drew]

Get yourself an RSV.

I am familiar with the RSV - that translation, like the others says that the "I" cannot do good. You posted the very text yourself - note the material rendered in bold:

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

A Christian who cannot do good? How is that possible, Mark?

This text cannot be describing a Christian. In fact, the very text itself clearly states this in verse 24. Summing up what has just been written, the "I" asks the question: Who will deliver me from this body of death? And the answer is Jesus. Clearly the "I" has been describing a state from which he has been delivered by becoming a believer.

And a Christian is not delivered from a state of death by becoming a Christian - it is the non-believer (and in this case, the Jewish non-believer) who is delivered from the state of death.

You have the Christian being in a state of "death" of enslavement to sin - how can this possibly be a state a Christian - a new creation - is in?

 

[Drew]

Paul says he sees in his members another law at war with the law of his mind, making him captive to the law of sin which dwells in his members. Is there a dualism there? The mind and the flesh?

There is no mind-flesh dualism here. The dualism that Paul is describing is the dualism of the Jew wanting to obey the Law of Moses, but overpowered by the "power of sin" that is at work in his body.

My own experience is this. I like to go to the track. I don't know if it's a sin, but it takes me away from what I want to do which is to preach the gospel. Why do I go? I don't understand my own actions. I don't need the money. I like the rush that comes from winning. So my body produces the chemistry that makes me do what I don't want to do.

I do not deny your experience. However, I suspect it would be hard to Biblically make the case that a converted Christian is incapable of avoiding evil - we are new creations, after all, and it is the unbeliever who is trapped in a state where he is unable to do good.

When we go to Romans 8 we see, 'therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Yes, but this is precisely because the Christian has left the Romans 7 state behind. Please look at the start of chapter 8, as appended to the end of chapter 7:

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death? 25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin. Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in (C)Christ Jesus

Paul's meaning is clear: The Christian is delivered from the "wretched man that I am state" as per Romans 7. More evidence that Romans 7 is not describing the experience of a Christian.

 

[Alabaster]

I would be more than happy to engage the actual Biblical arguments that you believe support this position on the composition of the human person. I do not think it is Biblically correct.

I am sorry, but I do believe it is totally biblical. The diagram is a simple overview.

 

[Drew]

I am sorry, but I do believe it is totally biblical. The diagram is a simple overview.

Fair enough. While I do not agree that the model you present is Biblical, I am more or less in the same boat you are in - neither of us has made an actual argument for our respective positions.

I hope to do so, if circumstances permit.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I don't think I'm denying the truth. Paul said by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. We are made righteous or clean by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit works in conjunction with Christ, all for whom He died [ His Obedience] will be made righteous practically by the Sovereign working and renewing of the Spirit.. He only renews them Christ shall make righteous by His obedience..

Titus 3:

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;



rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

So yes, you are denying the Truth..

 

[MarkT]

I am familiar with the RSV - that translation, like the others says that the "I" cannot do good. You posted the very text yourself - note the material rendered in bold:

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. 17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

A Christian who cannot do good? How is that possible, Mark?

This text cannot be describing a Christian. In fact, the very text itself clearly states this in verse 24. Summing up what has just been written, the "I" asks the question: Who will deliver me from this body of death? And the answer is Jesus. Clearly the "I" has been describing a state from which he has been delivered by becoming a believer.

And a Christian is not delivered from a state of death by becoming a Christian - it is the non-believer (and in this case, the Jewish non-believer) who is delivered from the state of death.

You have the Christian being in a state of "death" of enslavement to sin - how can this possibly be a state a Christian - a new creation - is in?

I'll tell you. Consider the law. You don't have to be a Jew to know the law. That's a fact. You know the law, and I'm assuming you're not Jewish. Sure Paul was speaking to those who know the law, but you know the law, and I'm speaking to you. And Paul was a Christian, and he said he could not do the good he wanted to do. By 'the good' I mean 'the good' according to 'the law'. See the word 'the' before the word 'good'? He is not saying he cannot do good, period. He said he could not do what is right according to the law.

You know it is wrong (not good) to covet. You know adultery is a sin. In fact, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Mt. 5:27,28

Can you will yourself to not lust? I can't. What if you saw a gorgeous woman topless? Even if you were to say to yourself, 'don't lust', you have already lusted. Too late! Or if you received a huge sum of money, could you will yourself to not covet? I can't. I would want to keep it. Or if you saw your neighbour had a nice house and a nice car and a beautiful wife, can you will yourself to not covet? But if you do covet, is it your will to covet, or is it automatic; as Paul put it, is the flesh subject to another law at war with the law of our mind? Doesn't it make sense that it is impossible for us mortals to follow the law, and that is why Jesus had to save us?

This is what Paul is talking about. Sin dwells within us, that is, in our flesh. We are carnal. We can not will ourselves to do right according to the law. That's also why we don't judge others. But we don't sin deliberately. The good news is that in Christ there is no sin.

 

[MarkT]

The Holy Spirit works in conjunction with Christ, all for whom He died [ His Obedience] will be made righteous practically by the Sovereign working and renewing of the Spirit.. He only renews them Christ shall make righteous by His obedience..

Titus 3:

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;



rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

So yes, you are denying the Truth..

I think you are confusing 'made' as in 'made' clean and 'made' as in moulded. In the first case the Spirit washes the inside of the cup. We are 'made' clean. The sin is forgiven. Therefore we are 'made' righteous. In the second case, God 'made' man.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

I think you are confusing 'made' as in 'made' clean and 'made' as in moulded.

Thats what you get for thinking and not studying..

 

[MarkT]

First of all, I have no idea exactly who you consider "my teachers" to be. And in any event, merely declaring you are against them is not very convincing - you need to actually engage the arguments.

The fact that Jesus called some Pharisees "vipers" does not change the fact that Jews wrote the Bible - Old and New Testaments. And the Hebrew culture simply had no sense of the kind of Greek "mind-body" dualism you appear to be embracing. So whether you are "not interested" or not, the proper way to read a text is to understand the cultural context from which it emerges. So when we read "soul" in the Bible, we need to ask "what would a Hebrew writer have meant by such a term, and not simply go with Greek notions which did not substantially undergird the Hebrew (Biblical worldview).

How do you know what the Hebrews believed? You were not there. You didn't escape from Egypt. You didn't wander in the desert for forty years. You were not a Jew living in Israel at the time Jesus was with us. What do you know about their world view. I know what David believed from reading David. I know what Soloman believed from reading the Psalms and the Proverbs. I know what the word of God was from reading the prophets. What do you know?

You were not a Jew living in Israel at the time of Jesus. Paul was, and he was blind until God gave him sight. Do you know what some Jews believed? Is their view equal to Moses and the prophets? The scholars base their theology on a consensus of opinion. Maybe you think you can do that and arrive at the truth. It's not obvious to everyone that you can't. But that's what's happening in our society. It's the will of God of course that evil men go from bad to worse, deceived and deceiving others.

I agree that there is a big difference between us, but not the kind you imagine.


An outrageous, unsubstantiated slur. You are taking the low road - unable or unwilling to engage my arguments, you take the tired, familiar tactic of demonizing those who do not share your position.


Since you have no actual grounds to support this implication that I am engaging in deceit, I suggest you pay heed to these words of Jesus:

But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Mark, let's be clear: you are simply demonizing me - you have provided no actual argument that I am mistaken in my position. Its fine to disagree with me, but please do not take the low road of demonizing rhetoric.

By saying the Hebrews did not believe in this dualism, you are making an appeal to a consensus of opinion and a false authority. You mentioned a guy named Wright I believe. Do you know it's a logical fallacy to appeal to a false authority? My standards are not your standards. My thinking is not your thinking.

If men were to look back 2000 years from now, would they conclude that no one believed in this dualism today? Proabably, based on the writings of the scholars. But they would be wrong. How about the translators of the Bible? What did they believe? Did they hold your position? Does it matter? It's what you believe that counts Drew, if you believe in God. As for myself, I believe what the Bible says. If it sounds Greek to you, too bad. Do you have something against the Greeks?