Vessels of Destruction - Take 2

[Drew]

There’s nothing dark about it Drew. The trespass increases if you know the law. It’s worse if you break the law knowing it is the law than if you break the law not knowing it is the law. If you trespass knowing the law says it is an offence, it is a greater offence or trespass than if you trespass not knowing you are trespassing. If you know the law says don’t do it, and you do it, it’s a greater offence, a 1st degree trespass or offence.

But this analysis is simply not true to what Paul actually wrote.

He wrote that the Law was given so that the transgression would abound, or increase. This is decidedly not the same idea as saying that the Law was given to reveal sin, or make us aware of it.

I suggest that we need to take Paul at his word, and not bend what he says into something else.

Besides, here in Romans 7, Paul says something similarly "dark" about the Law of Moses:

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful

Now it is true that this text does say that the law functions to reveal sin, but it goes beyond this to assert that the commandment functions to make sin worse - sin becoming utterly sinful.

And then we also have this from 1 Corinthians 15:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

We need to take such a statement seriously and dismissively conclude that Paul really means something other than what he says. Here, as in Romans 5 and 7, he asserts that sin gets its power from the law - the law functions to energize sin and bring it to its full hideous flower of expression.

 

[Drew]

It ain't just the JEW, it's YOU.

And if you don't believe Jesus, what can I say? Look out below. The ten plagues may be headed yer way.

enjoy!

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As has been pointed out to you many times, the fact that the scriptures do indeed teach about how hearts in general can and are hardened does not preclude Paul from making a case about a specific hardening of Jews at a specific point in history, and for a specific purpose.

The context of Romans 9 is clear - Paul is making an argument about Israel, not humanity in general. And his argument is that she, like a vessel, has been hardened.

Now, of course, there is a "universality" to the argument in the specific sense that what has happened to Israel has indeed had universal implications. But chapter 9 is fundamentally a re-telling of the covnenant history of Israel. The kind of general statement you see Paul making here has no place in such a context.

 

[MarkT]

Compare Adam's trespass to our trespasses. Adam was given a single commandment and he trespassed. Moses was given ten commandments. That gave sin greater opportunity to work death. Our trespasses are many compared to Adam's single trespass. Our trespasses amount to a greater trespass than Adam`s trespass but where there is more to forgive grace abounds even more.

 

[smaller]

Well you're not telling us how he hardens the heart. Isaiah tells us the LORD shut their eyes and their minds.

Isaiah 44:18 RSV
They know not, nor do they discern; for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their minds, so that they cannot understand.

Actually God can harden the heart because his spirit is in man, and it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand. Job 32:8

So it has nothing to do with devils or devils entering people. People get tired of hearing. Their hearts get dull, unreceptive to the word of God. They become stupid. But it's God' s will.

Jesus taught HOW it happens. We also know that the 'god of this world' blinds the minds of unbelievers. When you SEE what Jesus taught it's math simple enough for a child to understand.

The devil is the 'god of this world' and ENTERS where the Word is sown.

The BLINDER is THE DEVIL...the 'spirit of STUPOR.' That entity is who is WITH Israel that is NOT Israel.

And it was certainly GODS INTENTIONS to blind them exactly in the fashion that JESUS TAUGHT. All one has to do is READ and understand 'what happens.' Understanding of this matter IS INTENTIONALLY BLOCKED to people, so if you don't 'get it' I certainly understand WHY. No offense to you of course.

s

 

[smaller]

As has been pointed out to you many times, the fact that the scriptures do indeed teach about how hearts in general can and are hardened does not preclude Paul from making a case about a specific hardening of Jews at a specific point in history, and for a specific purpose.

We've already done this drill and the hardening happens to ANY UNBELIEVER, not just JEWS, as clearly shown in the text.

The context of Romans 9 is clear - Paul is making an argument about Israel, not humanity in general. And his argument is that she, like a vessel, has been hardened.

We ALL were 'likewise' blinded by the 'god of this world' prior to GODS LIFTING us up from that BLINDER in order to BELIEVE. You may deny that happens, but that IS how it works. God ELECTS some to hear in this present life. Such are the 'present elect.' This does NOT preclude God from saving ALL OF ISRAEL, even the ENEMIES of the Gospel as Paul taught us in Romans 11:25-32 for those who GOD ALLOWS to see this matter. Otherwise THEY TOO remain BLOCKED and BLINDED by that same 'god of this world' by GODS INTENTIONS to blind such.

Now, of course, there is a "universality" to the argument in the specific sense

OF COURSE there is. I believe what Paul was teaching in Romans 9-11 is an extension easily seen as applied to HIMSELF in Romans 7. Paul had evil present/A DEVIL. He did NOT claim those things were simply himself. This again clearly shows the VESSEL OF DISHONOUR is in fact the 'god of this world' or his family of DEVILS upon people. All have sin and ALL SIN is connected to the DEVIL in believer or unbeliever.

IF you are allowed to 'get' this fact, it even applies to ADAM and EVE in the Garden of Eden. The Word was sown in them and SATAN entered them IMMEDIATELY to SIN. Jesus taught this principle multiple times as I've previously cited in this and other threads.

that what has happened to Israel has indeed had universal implications. But chapter 9 is fundamentally a re-telling of the covnenant history of Israel. The kind of general statement you see Paul making here has no place in such a context.

Your "Jew only" position is patently false by the term ONLY. And further, for the believers who BOAST against the BLINDED JEW there is a CLEAR WARNING that God can in fact DO THE SAME TO YOU. In actuality God is allowing the BOASTER to 'come forth' which same is THE DEVIL in those who BOAST against BLINDED people. Sorry to have to tell ya.

enjoy!

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[MarkT]

As has been pointed out to you many times, the fact that the scriptures do indeed teach about how hearts in general can and are hardened does not preclude Paul from making a case about a specific hardening of Jews at a specific point in history, and for a specific purpose.

The context of Romans 9 is clear - Paul is making an argument about Israel, not humanity in general. And his argument is that she, like a vessel, has been hardened.

Now, of course, there is a "universality" to the argument in the specific sense that what has happened to Israel has indeed had universal implications. But chapter 9 is fundamentally a re-telling of the covnenant history of Israel. The kind of general statement you see Paul making here has no place in such a context.

Paul was an Israelite. Obviously he was not hardened. Neither were the Israelites who believed. A part of Israel was hardened, however, - those who did not believe. That would make Israel the clay. The sons of Israel would be the vessels.

Paul counts himself a vessel when he says, `even us whom he has called`. Again, `us` indicates he is talking about more than one vessel, plural. So Paul is talking about the sons of Israel and all men, Jew and Gentile.

Man is the vessel. God has the right to make men for himself and to call men to himself. He also has the right to make men to show his wrath. He made Pharoah to keep the Israelites in bondage until he made Moses to free them.

 

[Drew]

We've already done this drill and the hardening happens to ANY UNBELIEVER, not just JEWS, as clearly shown in the text.

You are making the following error: You assume that because hardening is described in the Bible in various places as something that can happen to anyone, that any and all discussion of hardening must be "universal" in this same sense.

The reason why this is an error can be seen by the fact that someone can assert that anyone can get cancer, and yet still otherwise describe a scenario where a particular class of persons got cancer.

You seem to think that any discussion of hardening must be universal. This is simply not the case.

 

[Drew]

Your "Jew only" position is patently false by the term ONLY. And further, for the believers who BOAST against the BLINDED JEW there is a CLEAR WARNING that God can in fact DO THE SAME TO YOU. In actuality God is allowing the BOASTER to 'come forth' which same is THE DEVIL in those who BOAST against BLINDED people. Sorry to have to tell ya.

I am sorry but the error is yours - as I have repeatedly pointed out, the fact that hardening can happen to anybody does not preclude from writing a treatment about a specific hardening that happened to Jews only.

And the warning you speak of supports my point, ironically. If Paul had been describing a hardening that happened to both Jew and Gentile, he would not be in a position to make this warning: it is only if Paul had been making an argument about a "Jew-only" hardening that he would be placed in the position where he has to say "You Gentiles too can suffer the same fate as these Jews did".

 

[Drew]

Paul was an Israelite. Obviously he was not hardened. Neither were the Israelites who believed. A part of Israel was hardened, however, - those who did not believe. That would make Israel the clay. The sons of Israel would be the vessels.

I am not sure I understand this Israel vs sons of Israel distinction. But in any event, I am aware that Paul was an Israelite. If I have not made it clear in my posts - but I think I have - I am not saying that Paul is saying that all Jews were hardened. But in Romans 9 to 11, he makes an argument that some Jews were hardened.

Paul counts himself a vessel when he says, `even us whom he has called`. Again, `us` indicates he is talking about more than one vessel, plural. So Paul is talking about the sons of Israel and all men, Jew and Gentile.

Well yes, Paul does indeed say that both Jew and Gentile are vessels of glory - I have never denied this. But it is the vessels of destruction I am referring to. And the evidence is compelling that these vessels of destruction are Jews only.

 

[Drew]

It says everyone, not just the Jew. Everyone who relies on the works of the law is under a curse if he doesn’t abide by everything that is written in the book of the law. I don’t understanding the connection here.

The Law of Moses was given to Jews only. Consequently, a statement about anyone who relies on the works of the Law of Moses is really a statement limited to Jews.

Pharaoh was ready to let the Israelites go a number of times and God hardened his heart each time so that he changed his mind. What’s the law got to do with it? The law didn’t cause Pharaoh to harden his heart.

My position is that Pharaoh is being used as an example of the general principle that God can harden whomever He wants to harden. And this leads to the climax of his argument, which is that God has hardened Jews. I am not suggesting you are doing this, but some make the clearly incorrect argument that because Paul writes of a Gentile being hardened, that this means that any statement he goes on to make about "vessels of destruction" must include Gentiles. I have already shown this to be an error in the very first post of this thread.

 

[Drew]

Compare Adam's trespass to our trespasses. Adam was given a single commandment and he trespassed. Moses was given ten commandments. That gave sin greater opportunity to work death. Our trespasses are many compared to Adam's single trespass. Our trespasses amount to a greater trespass than Adam`s trespass but where there is more to forgive grace abounds even more.

I am not sure what this argument is directed at. In Romans 5:20 Paul makes a specific reference to the Law of Moses being added so that the trespass might about. The Law of Moses was not given to Adam, it was given to Moses as leader of the Jews.

 

[Drew]

Well again Paul did not say anything about the law hardening Israel.

I agree that Paul never explicitly says this in Romans 9. But, in Romans 5, he says that the Law of Moses, which was for Jews only, was added to make transgression increase or abound. And in Romans 7, he says that the Law of Moses, again for Jews only, makes sin "utterly sinful". And since Romans 9 is clearly an explanation of the sad state of, yes, Israel - look at the intro - it is entirely reasonable to assume that the "vessels of destruction" are Jews hardened by the Law.

Remember, using your line of argument, Paul never says that the "vessels of destruction" is a group containing both Jew and Gentile.

Paul is talking about God’s right to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use. The same lump refers to our ancestor, whether Abraham or Adam, being the ancestor of us all.

You need to defend this, not simply assert it. How do you know that the lump of clay refers to our "ancestors in general". In keeping with repeated Old Testament precedent of use of this metaphor, I suggest that he is talking about the clay as Israel in particular.

Do you want me to make the case in full? - In this very thread, I have already given one example of an Old Testament passage where it is clear that the clay is Israel in particular.

 

[MarkT]

Well again Paul did not say anything about the law hardening Israel.

I agree that Paul never explicitly says this in Romans 9. But, in Romans 5, he says that the Law of Moses, which was for Jews only, was added to make transgression increase or abound.

Romans covers a lot of things from Adam’s trespass to the law which increased the trespass. But all men are under the power of sin, both Jews and Greeks. Paul said whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, which means, if you know what the law says, you are under the law. So every mouth will be stopped. The whole world will be held accountable to God. Romans 3:19 So even though Paul is talking to his people, he is not preaching a different gospel to them. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. I agree the Jews were entrusted with the law but the law has nothing to do with understanding and belief, which is what hardening is about.

And in Romans 7, he says that the Law of Moses, again for Jews only, makes sin "utterly sinful". And since Romans 9 is clearly an explanation of the sad state of, yes, Israel - look at the intro - it is entirely reasonable to assume that the "vessels of destruction" are Jews hardened by the Law.

Not really. I’m pretty sure Paul is talking about the ungodly in Romans 1:18-32 where he says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. They may be Jews. Paul calls them vessels of wrath made for destruction.

 

[MarkT]

I agree that Paul never explicitly says this in Romans 9. But, in Romans 5, he says that the Law of Moses, which was for Jews only, was added to make transgression increase or abound. And in Romans 7, he says that the Law of Moses, again for Jews only, makes sin "utterly sinful". And since Romans 9 is clearly an explanation of the sad state of, yes, Israel - look at the intro - it is entirely reasonable to assume that the "vessels of destruction" are Jews hardened by the Law.

Remember, using your line of argument, Paul never says that the "vessels of destruction" is a group containing both Jew and Gentile.


You need to defend this, not simply assert it. How do you know that the lump of clay refers to our "ancestors in general". In keeping with repeated Old Testament precedent of use of this metaphor, I suggest that he is talking about the clay as Israel in particular.

Do you want me to make the case in full? - In this very thread, I have already given one example of an Old Testament passage where it is clear that the clay is Israel in particular.

Well actually if you look at Isaiah, you will see men will regard their Maker, and man is called an earthen vessel - unless the LORD only made Jews. I will concede that as an example of making one vessel for beauty and one vessel for menial use from one lump, Paul was refering to Jacob and Esau. But that is just an example. The same principle applies to all men - Pharoah, the wicked, the ungodly, the godless, the godly, the believer, the unbeliever - everyone.

Isaiah 17:7 RSV
In that day men will regard their Maker, and their eyes will look to the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 29:16 RSV
You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of its maker, "He did not make me"; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?

Isaiah 45:9 RSV
"Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to him who fashions it, 'What are you making'? or 'Your work has no handles'?

 

[smaller]

I am sorry but the error is yours - as I have repeatedly pointed out, the fact that hardening can happen to anybody does not preclude from writing a treatment about a specific hardening that happened to Jews only.

Well, we certainly don't want to observe a logical fallacy.

The fact is that it did and still does happen to 'anybody' regardless of their state of national origin.

The WORD of God was sown in Egypt. Pharaoh was hardened. The Word of God was sown in Jacob. Esau was hardened.

And the warning you speak of supports my point, ironically. If Paul had been describing a hardening that happened to both Jew and Gentile, he would not be in a position to make this warning: it is only if Paul had been making an argument about a "Jew-only" hardening that he would be placed in the position where he has to say "You Gentiles too can suffer the same fate as these Jews did".

Absolutly gentiles not only can be hardened, but did get hardened, and such were used as an example in Romans 9 just as unbelieving Jews were (and believing Gentiles were warned of) in Romans 11.

God can place and raise up a vessel of dishonour in any LUMP of man. Paul showed 'how' this happened in relationship to the LAW in Romans 7 and it's WORKINGS WITH INDWELLING SIN and EVIL PRESENT within himself.

The HARDENING is 'caused' BY the entry of Satan just as Jesus taught happens where the Word is sown.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans is not a 'Jews only' matter as it pertains to sin and it's workings, UNIVERSAL in all mankind.

Paul tells how THE LAW reacted with sin, how the SPIRIT OF LIFE in Christ freed him from that working and THEN what happened to Israel, Pharoah and Esau.

God ELECTED some to see and MOST to not understand by BLINDING their spiritual vision and deafening their spiritual ears. It is THE DEVIL who is His Instrument of BLINDING.

The spirit of stupor is the devil who enters MENS HEARTS where THE WORD is sown.

There is another principle in play on these matters as well. NO person who has had this happen to them can SPEAK THE TRUTH of it because THE DEVIL cannot speak the TRUTH and the DEVIL holds their own tongue making them UNable to come to grips with these matters personally, and instead they BLAME AND ACCUSE other people.

I thank God for Paul's honesty in these matters for himself. Paul admitted that he had evil present AND a DEVIL. That DEVIL was clearly a VESSEL OF DISHONOUR in the LUMP OF PAUL.

Paul in Romans was in fact speaking about the 'construction' of ALL MANKIND. All have SIN. Sin is OF THE DEVIL. There are the TWO VESSELS--->

MANKIND

DEVILS

Both of these identities are in EVERY LUMP. And God can and does raise EITHER vessel as HE SEES FIT to raise. Paul even tells us the purpose of God in this BINDING:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God will have MERCY upon EVERY VESSEL OF HONOUR.
God will UTTERLY DESTROY every VESSEL OF DISHONOUR.

This is the essence of THE GOSPEL.

Blessed are those whom He leads to understanding.

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[Drew]

Well again Paul did not say anything about the law hardening Israel.

I trust you understand that a point need not be made explicitly to still be made.

The book "Animal Farm" never explicitly declares that it is an allegory about Soviet politics, yet it clearly is.

In Roman 5 Paul says what he says - the Law of Moses was added to make transgression increase, not to reveal it, even though it does that as well.

In Romans 7, Paul says that through the commandment, sin becomes utterly sinful. And note what else Paul writes in Romans 7:

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Again, this is about taking Paul seriously in the details - this is clearly a picture not of sin being "revealed" by the Law, but of sin beging actually empowered, enabled, and energized by the Law.

The text is what it is.

Same thing with 1 Cor 15 - the Law is described as the power of sin. This is not a statement about revealing sin, it is a statemen about empowering sin.

I am only taking Paul at his word. You are free to say "Well Paul says this, but I think he means this other things". But that is not a path I am willing to take.

Paul is clear, even though somewhat cryptic - the Law of Moses has this strange effect of energizing and empowering sin.

 

[Drew]

Romans covers a lot of things from Adam’s trespass to the law which increased the trespass. But all men are under the power of sin, both Jews and Greeks.

Not the point. Paul wrote what he wrote - the Law, that is the Law of Moses, was added, that is given to Moses, to increase the trespass.

No one is saying that all men are not under sin. But it is only the Jew who is under the Law of Moses, and so if the Law functions to energize and empower sin, it does so for those who are under it.

That is, Jews.

Paul said whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, which means, if you know what the law says, you are under the law.

Incorrect. I trust you are familiar with the Old Testament. It is clear that the Law of Moses was given to Jews and was for them alone. This really should not be something that is under dispute - it was given to them and was for them to follow. Leviticus even says that the law separates the Jew from the Gentile.

So only Jews are under the Law. Paul, at least, cleary believes precisely this. The following statement from Romans 3 makes it clear that Paul believes that the Law of Moses is for Jews only:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too

Besides, your argument above is like arguing that since I, a Canadian, know about American law, I am therefore under it. That is simply not the case.

So every mouth will be stopped. The whole world will be held accountable to God. Romans 3:19

But this does not mean that Paul is overturning Biblcal history and saying that, despite what the Old Testament says, the Law of Moses applies to all humans.

He is summarizing his argument of the first half of Romans 3 here. He has told us that the Gentile is under sin, and he has told us that the Jew is under sin, and reminded us that the Jew is under the Law of Moses. So his overall conclusion - the entire world is accountable. He is not saying that the Gentile is under the Law - how could he say such a thing?

 

[Drew]

I agree the Jews were entrusted with the law but the law has nothing to do with understanding and belief, which is what hardening is about.

How do you defend this broad statement Biblically? How do you know that the Law of Moses cannot be a means of hardening? This statement "the law has nothing to do with understanding and belief" is quite the statement - can you defend it Biblically?

Not really. I’m pretty sure Paul is talking about the ungodly in Romans 1:18-32 where he says the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. They may be Jews. Paul calls them vessels of wrath made for destruction.

This is not an argument - it is a statement that needs to be justified. Yes, Paul is talking about all the ungodly in Romans 1:18-32. But its quite a leap to connect the vessels of destruction to these people. Can you defend this? That would be a tall order because, as I am sure you know, Romans 9 is specifically a treatment of the nation of Israel. So why is Paul suddenly veering off into a treatment of vessels of destruction that has no Israel - specificity?

 

[Drew]

Well, we certainly don't want to observe a logical fallacy.

The fact is that it did and still does happen to 'anybody' regardless of their state of national origin.

The WORD of God was sown in Egypt. Pharaoh was hardened. The Word of God was sown in Jacob. Esau was hardened.

You are making the same error. We all know that God has hardened some Gentiles and some Jews in the histoty of the world.

But this does not, of course, mean that Paul cannot make a very focused treatment of a particular hardening that happened to Jews.

I am not sure why you do not understand this.

We all agree that history shows us that people of all nations can, and have been buried in volcanic eruptions.

Does that mean that I am not pemitted to speak of the specific burying that occurred in Pompei? Am I not permitted to speak of those Italian people, in particular, being "vessels of destruction" in a volcanic eruption?

I hope the problem has been solved, but I expect you will continue to pursue a line of argument that insists that Paul is magically prohibited from a treating a specific hardening.

 

[Drew]

God can place and raise up a vessel of dishonour in any LUMP of man. Paul showed 'how' this happened in relationship to the LAW in Romans 7 and it's WORKINGS WITH INDWELLING SIN and EVIL PRESENT within himself.

Bringing up Romans 7 strengthens my argument. In fact, it is a re-statement of part of my argument.

What is the Law in Romans 7 that worked on indwelling sin in Paul?

It is, of course, the Law of Moses, given to Jews only.

By the way, no one is denying that sin and evil indwells all men, regardless of ethnicity. But this does not mean that the Law of Moses, given to Jews only, does not function to make matters worse for that Jew.

Which is what I have been arguing.