vulgar display of power

[DivineNames]

(14) What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (19) One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" (21) Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (22) What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? (23) What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (24) even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24 NIV)


Could someone explain these verses?

 

[DivineNames]

What the verses seem to suggest, is that God makes people evil, so he can punish them and show off his power.

Do you disagree?

I disagree...


[quote:b308e]Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Why is God longsuffering?


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

God knows the beginning and the end. He knows what choices we will make before we make them.

He uses all things for his glory. Our good choices and our evil choices.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

This is not on topic. I am willing to discuss the verses and what they mean but not in this thread.

Start a new thread on this topic.

Jonathan Edward's sermon is supposed to be the topic here.[/quote:b308e]

 

[DivineNames]

Why is God longsuffering?


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You haven't explained the verses, you have just quoted a different book of the Bible.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Again, this doesn't explain the verses in question.

God knows the beginning and the end. He knows what choices we will make before we make them.

OK, but those verses say that God, "hardens whom he wants to harden", and that, "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?". This does not seem to suggest free choices.

 

[DivineNames]

(19) One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

So some people would object to what is being claimed, on the grounds that God couldn't then hold people accountable for what they do.

This certainly makes sense if what is being claimed is that God causes people to be evil.

How else would it make sense?

 

[Khristeeanos]

Romans 9
1I speak the truth in Christâ€â€I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel.


30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."


The entire context of Romans 9 is Israel as you can see from the first few verses and the last few verses.

And the conclusion is that of human choice as evident in verse 33.

 

[DivineNames]

And the conclusion is that of human choice as evident in verse 33.

"As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

This shows that the verses in question don't deny free choice? Please explain.

 

[DivineNames]

And Bonsai, could you answer the point that is just above your own post?

 

[bibleberean]

Romans 9:15-16 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God is saying though the apostle Paul that a man must come to God on His terms.

Man cannot choose to come to God on his own terms.

Paul continues to explain this in the following verses...

Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

God is talking about the contrast between Israel and the church as he goes on to explain in Romans 12 the verses in question apply to election and not necessarily to salvation.

Any individual Jew can be saved.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


The terms of salvation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The context of Romans is about Israel being hardened and being broken off.

The Jews become "hardened" through rejection. They close their eyes and God honours their choice.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The bible is a complete book including the Old and New Testaments they can not be separated.

The problem with many is that they don't understand the context of scripture and it's meanings because they take a verse or chapter out of the setting it was intended.

Peter explains...

2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

God will harden the hearts of the wicked if they refuse to hear Him.

Paul writes all of these verses.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

This is speaking about whom He will have mercy or harden. It doesn't mean He forced them to become evil or to repent.

This Paul writes about how to become a vessel of honour.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

The bible explains the bible.

Note:

The following verses concern election not salvation.

Romans 9:11-12 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

The line of Israel comes through Jacob not Esau. God made that decision.

It does not mean that Esau could not be saved and that He created Esau for hell.

 

[Khristeeanos]

And the conclusion is that of human choice as evident in verse 33.

"As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

This shows that the verses in question don't deny free choice? Please explain.

The verse says "the one who trusts in Him..." and clearly shows that anybody who chooses to put their trust in God (condition) will realize the effect (promise of God).

 

[Khristeeanos]

(19) One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

So some people would object to what is being claimed, on the grounds that God couldn't then hold people accountable for what they do.

This certainly makes sense if what is being claimed is that God causes people to be evil.

How else would it make sense?

I will be happy to try to answer this, but I really don't understand it.

God doesn't cause evil, he gave Adam and Eve a choice and they choose poorly. And today we suffer from the ramifications of their choice. We are born with an inclination to sin.

Is that what you are talking about?

 

[wavy]

RGod is talking about the contrast between Israel and the church as he goes on to explain in Romans 12 the verses in question apply to election and not necessarily to salvation.

Contrast between Israel and the "church"?

Anyway, to give my opinion to the original poster on Romans 9, it is about Paul's heart for Jewish Israel. They should be bron in the manner that Isaac was (by promise, through the Spirit) and not because they are of the seed of Abraham.

The nations (seed of Ephraim Israel as witnessed by Paul's quote of Hosea chapter 1) attained the goal of Torah by faith. Jewish Israel stumbled at this. However, of both houses, both Ephraim Israel and Jewish Israel, a remnant will be saved. In the end, both houses see clearly.

Judah's (those in Jerusalem and in all Judea) fall (not a fall from being elect or not being Yahweh's people but a fall because they tripped over the Rock) brought salvation to the nations (Ephraim and their non-Israelite companions of the faith). So when the two sticks of Judah and Ephraim Israel become one according to Ezekiel 37:16-28 (after the "fullness of the nations"; Genesis 48:19, Romans 11:25), all Israel will be saved.

This is not a passage about all Israel (both houses) being unbelieving and so Yahweh has a new "church" of "gentiles" called "Christians" who when they all become saved who will be saved, then Israel will come to Messiah (as this passage is commonly interpreted to mean). Paul identifies the Roman congregation as Israel by quoting Hosea and Isaiah in Romans 9 (indentifying the "nations" as the same people of Hosea chapter one who were called Lo-Ami/Not My people).

 

[bibleberean]

And the conclusion is that of human choice as evident in verse 33.

"As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

This shows that the verses in question don't deny free choice? Please explain.

The verse says "the one who trusts in Him..." and clearly shows that anybody who chooses to put their trust in God (condition) will realize the effect (promise of God).

Clear enough. 8-)

 

[Relic]

.


Why is it that when it comes down to the laws of cause and effect in nature, people have no qualms with it, but when it comes down to the laws of cause and effect in the spiritual, in that, how they are related to the human emotion and behavior, they have no idea as to the workings of them. And thereby, they act as if God doesn't know what the heck He is saying in the bible about it all, and they act as if God has nothing to do with "the laws of consequences" and has nothing to do with describing "cause and effect" which just happen to be in and of "the laws of order" in human behavior and nature? :-?

Why is it that some people just don't see the relationship, the connection between "the truth in the word" with "the absolute truth of consequences in all things"?



They just don't get it, that there are rules of order in all things, and if you go against them you will get the result of going against them. If you go with them, you will get the result of going with them. They just don't see the loving hand of a father showing his child the dangers and the precautions of what happens when you do this or that. They just see it as God the one who has nothing to do with being the "creator of all things" They just see God as some mythical figure they don't take seriously enough as being the "CREATOR" and the one who sets the world and all the universe in ORDER! And that is so sad.


Plain and simple. They just don't want to be subject to any type of absolute set laws of order. They just don't get it, God shows us plain and clear the workings of human nature when it is "out of the order of his "good" will for us. They just don't see that God created both good and the evil and if we don't wise up and learn of the laws that pertain to His goodness, we will be like drift wood, unsure, unstable, much like the ignorant heathens who would rather glitz themselves up with useless, meaningless, destructive confused behavior, and the hoarding of material posessions rather than follow the uplifting, "good will" of God's laws pertainig to human behavior. They just don't get it. And that is so sad. :-?


Maybe it's just too heavy of a subject for them to grasp or understand :-?

It just amazes me how some people just don't see the connections.

How much more clear does it have to be?
Instead of them seeing man as being the one in opposition to, the one who transgresses these "laws of order", they blame God as being the one who is the heavy handed one who slaps them silly by taking away freedom or being of a brute force of which they are prisoners without choice.


.

 

[DivineNames]

(19) One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

So some people would object to what is being claimed, on the grounds that God couldn't then hold people accountable for what they do.

This certainly makes sense if what is being claimed is that God causes people to be evil.

How else would it make sense?

I will be happy to try to answer this, but I really don't understand it.

God doesn't cause evil, he gave Adam and Eve a choice and they choose poorly. And today we suffer from the ramifications of their choice. We are born with an inclination to sin.

Is that what you are talking about?

How does the objection which Paul considers make sense-

"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

if the claim is not that God causes evil?

bb, can you answer this?

 

[DivineNames]

And the conclusion is that of human choice as evident in verse 33.

"As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

This shows that the verses in question don't deny free choice? Please explain.

The verse says "the one who trusts in Him..." and clearly shows that anybody who chooses to put their trust in God (condition) will realize the effect (promise of God).

It does not "clearly show" at all. It doesn't say the "condition" is a matter of free choice. You can assume that, but it doesn't say that.

 

[bibleberean]

(19) One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

So some people would object to what is being claimed, on the grounds that God couldn't then hold people accountable for what they do.

This certainly makes sense if what is being claimed is that God causes people to be evil.

How else would it make sense?

I will be happy to try to answer this, but I really don't understand it.

God doesn't cause evil, he gave Adam and Eve a choice and they choose poorly. And today we suffer from the ramifications of their choice. We are born with an inclination to sin.

Is that what you are talking about?

How does the objection which Paul considers make sense-

"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

if the claim is not that God causes evil?

bb, can you answer this?

Paul is saying that no one can resist God's will because He has laid the terms for us to come to Him.

The answer was given.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Those who don't want to come to God on His terms are made vessels of dishonour.

God will harden or confirm the choice made.

2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Choice...

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Rebellious children say these words all the time.

"I didn't ask to be born". They are telling their parents if they don't like their behaviour or attitude too bad. It's not their fault.

Paul is quoting Jeremiah 18

Jeremiah 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jeremiah 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jeremiah 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;


Jeremiah 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jeremiah 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jeremiah 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jeremiah 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Jeremiah 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Choice return everyone from evil. If not face the consequences.

If not God does harden hearts and confirms their choice.


Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

 

[DivineNames]

The Jews become "hardened" through rejection. They close their eyes and God honours their choice.

Why is it that when it comes down to the laws of cause and effect in nature, people have no qualms with it, but when it comes down to the laws of cause and effect in the spiritual, in that, how they are related to the human emotion and behavior, they have no idea as to the workings of them.


They just don't get it, that there are rules of order in all things, and if you go against them you will get the result of going against them. If you go with them, you will get the result of going with them.

OK, Romans 9:17-

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

How is this about the consequence of actions? Spiritual cause and effect? This seems to be about God showing off his power.


(1) Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. (2) You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. (3) But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, (4) he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. (5) And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it." (Exodus 7:1-5 NIV)

 

[DivineNames]

Paul is saying that no one can resist God's will because He has laid the terms for us to come to Him.

The answer was given.

Could you expand on this?

 

[bibleberean]

Did God force Pharaoh to sin?


Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

God did not cause him to sin but would not let him let the people go to demonstrate His power.

God also knew that Pharaoh would not want to do His will and this was a prophecy of his rebellion.

Exodus 5:1-2 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness. And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

God raised up Pharaoh knowing that he would choose evil over good. It does not mean God created Pharaoh and forced him to be evil.

 

[bibleberean]

Paul is saying that no one can resist God's will because He has laid the terms for us to come to Him.

The answer was given.

Could you expand on this?

I already have but I will do it again.

John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God's terms,

John 3:14-19 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.