vulgar display of power

[Relic]

What I think, however, is that you may be reading something into the Bible which simply isn't there. Perhaps to try and explain away morally dubious material in your scripture?

"isn't there?"

"dubious material?"

First off, please excuse the redundancy of thoughts in my writings and the length of this post. It is a fault of mine that I have not yet conquered but yet, I am working on improving. My most humble apologies for that. :-?

This post is directed towards Divine Names so anyone who is agitated with my long posts can just move on without mean retorts. If you want to comment then please do so without personal insults. Thanks.

And please do excuse the long post, I couldn't relay the message any other way.




Now, for the reply to the above quote:

Please do be more precise in pointing out exactly what you say is dubious and not there.

And I see many loaded questions from you to me. Why not just get to the point?

Are there any Bible verses, which talk about Pharaoh being "hardened", that support your spiritual "cause and effect" theory?

Awe, now you are going to provoke me to explain to you how the spirit of God is operative in observing and acting upon and reacting to the behaviors of man?
Well, If you observe to know God as a close relation to you, instead of some type of tyrant form of a bully, then you would have a personal relationship with the Spirit of God as you would with your best friends spirit. You would understand the wrath of God as you would understand your own reasons for your bouts of wrath/anger with those who oppose you in your reasoning and logical way of thinking. Yes?

And now you are asking me to show you how the scripture reveals cause and effect?
Well, right from the start of it, the book of Genesis reveals cause and effect. and as far as cause and effect in regards to the stubbornness of Pharaoh.... Well, I have to take the time to go over the verses and point out to you in what way the Spirit of God is operating "in this case". Prepositions are always revealed in the scripture, and are clues to what will be in accordance to the blessings of God or not. God uses us for His Glory. meaning no matter what evil comes into the picture, it all turns out for HIS PEOPLE, those that are called according to his purpose.

This is why we pray that God's will be done, not our own. because if our carnal minded will interferes with the heavenly calling of God, then we are fallen from the heavenly will to the earthly carnality, being subject to the whiles of the devil. Not the "good will" of God. There lies the differences of choice. It was clearly shown to us in the first few chapters of Genesis, this fall of the state of man, to being vulnerable to temptation. Free will. God knew how he created us, that once we lost focus on Him that we would be like a child run away from home. Read the above article: Why Was God Sorry He Made Man? Written by Michael Gleghorn. It clearly shows what it is for the spirit of God to be grieved because of our choices. Divine Names, Do you have children?

Yes, God created all things, but it is of our own choice. God said he will harden Pharaohs' heart, but remember, He said that after the fact that he saw Pharaoh being so stubborn. You might want to argue that God knew us even before we were born, but that does not eliminate our freedom of choice, it only states that God knows the carnal and the heavenly natures that are instilled in man according to the choices they make. Even Jesus, as he was in the fleshly body, was tempted. BUT it was his choices that proved the Spirit of God the Father is the power that prevails and it is in those wise Godly choices that we find the everlasting life and light of God. It is in the foolishness of man (carnal ) that we fall to subjection of Demonic influence. Jesus came to show us HOW TO "resist" that temptation, (Adam and Eve's fall) and how to "overcome" (sin) evil.

.


I may be wrong here but, it appears to me that you think God might "perhaps" have something to do with, but you are not quite willing to say that He is indeed, being the One and ONLY ONE who sets all of the Laws or Order into place.
And correct me if I am in error, but it appears to me that you think it is just a matter of fact that is totally outside of some 'Omniscient" Omnipotent" "Omnipresent" Spirit that "we Christians" call God.
Is that right? Hence: Thread titled: Obvious Existence of God
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=11432&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Have you changed your mind since then? I don't know, I haven't had time to go through all your messages. Over 1000 of them. :-?

Are you now trying to prove that God uses us all like puppets on a string? But if you don't beleive in God, (I don't know if you do) the what's your point? If there is not God according to you, then why even bicker about something you don't beleive in? :-?


I happen to believe that God gives freedom as well as taking control of behaviors when need be. All for the interest of our Well Being and for the Glory, from glory to glory. Victorious in overcoming evil.

I remember you telling BibleBerean to stop showing scripture and to just tell you his mind in the matter. And now you are telling me to give you scripture to back up what I am telling you?
Hmmmmm, curious. :roll: :

If you don't believe the first few verses in the bible then how can we even continue on in conversation without butting heads incessantly?
If you are atheist, you wouldn't believe the very first few verses in the bible, and that would be like two aliens trying to speak to each other with different tongues groping to learn each others lanuage from two different platforms. Debates! Oh Lord, why do I even get involved with these threads? :-?

• Genesis 1:1-31
  1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
  
  2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
  
  3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
  
  4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

If you don't believe in the bible as it stating God as being the creator, then where do we have a meeting ground? What foundation do we establish? Some unknown that most atheists cling to or do we go by the truth which all Godly people came to understand? (which is not easily explained in just a few short postings :roll: It takes a lifetime of study and growing in the Spirit of the Lord God, and also through knowing Christ Jesus our Lord and savior. ) So a thread is only a grain of sand in the vast sea shores. If you know what I mean. :bday: (one must be "born again" in the "spirit", the "holy" spirit) If you are not "christian, then you wouldn't grasp this. And I'm assuming you are not because of your accusing God of being a "vulgar display" of Power. :-? I suppose in one sense, if you look at the creation of evil from out of the fallen angel's choices. then yes, that is a vulgar display of contorted, pervertedness of the Will of God in respect to it being in opposition to His Good will for his chosen ones, those that are called according to His purpose.


Is your point being that God creates bad people to prove his goodness comes out from it? What are you getting at?
I stated what I believe about choices, freely choosing.
This is a Christian Forum. And we "Christians" do believe in a Sovereign God, in his "Omniscience, Omnipotence, and Omnipresence".

In my understanding, we are all in process, in the growth stages. Eternity is a course by which we continually grow and change. Yes? If that be true then would it not be that, we would in the course of our eternal journey, in growing to know God, as we are now in bodily form, to experience error?
It is not much different than our own children do and we must then extend our discipline upon them.

How else can we come to know His Goodness if we are not made aware of the opposing forces to his goodness?
That does not necessarily mean that we are all going to be forced to do bad things. The evil that we experience is a matter of choice or out of ignorance, and through those choices, which some of them are of the evil, we suffer the consequences, or we reap the rewards of the goodness from them.

Who are we to say that we should not experience or come to know these things if we are to use our wills as freely as we choose without giving credence to the Good Will of God for us. It is all explained in the beginning books of the bible, that man fell away from God and thereby came to know the forces of evil. Satan the tempter, the one who was once himself, an angel of God is a result of the turning away from our relationship, our intimacy with God.
It is spiritual, One can't understand it if they don't have a spiritual eye to see, and a spiritual ear to hear what is in the message. Would you agree?


I know you are an intelligent person, and I know you can give a good argument about physics and science. But if you don't give credit to God as being the divine source of and in all things, then what have we left but bickering back and forth? :-?

I'm not riled, and I'm not upset or anything to that effect. 8-) :wink: However, I have to tell you, I'm not into playing cat and mouse games. I know well enough from reading some of your previous postings that you can be as precise or as vague as you want in order to get a point across or in order to toy with someone just for the heck of it. :wink:

Please do tell me, exactly what is your point? And tell exactly where have I written things of a dubious nature? Precisely.

Maybe then the obscure matters here will be settled and the playing games will be minimized. Then, we can get down to the meat of the matter. Which is, what I think you are trying to imply.... is that the God in which Christians believe is a God who bullies us into obeying Him and that we have no free choice in any matter, that God controls every move we make as if we are puppets on his strings. As depicted in a very old Star Trek Episode in which the baby giant alien controlled the crew of the ship in holding them hostage to staged shows as if they were nothing but toys for this giant baby alien from another world/universe. Is that what you are trying to prove? If not then what is it you are getting at? Please do tell.

Since I haven't kept up with the whole lot of your previous postings which are well over the 1000 mark and I do know you have been a member of this forum for quite a while, So, I must ask this of you to clear up some things, so as I know who and what I am dealing with so we can carry on without things being unclear and dangling in .

Are you atheistic? Are you muslim or of any other religion than Judeo Christian?


.

.

 

[Atonement]

Vulgar display of power.. Great Pantera LP

 

[Relic]

Vulgar display of power.. Great Pantera LP

Well, howdy there. You came from out of nowhere! :

LP? So, is Divine Names is getting his influences and ideas from off of LP's ? I'll have to check out who Pantera is.

BtW, greetings, and Welcome Back, atonement!


Well, I check out the lyrics to that LP.
all I could say is , Yes, it is vulgar! and it just leaves you dangling like in a state of what the heck was that all about? It leaves you with a sense of futility! A state of frustrated limbo and depression from all of the depressing lyrics to those songs. The whole LP is depression expressed in anger. I wouldn't doubt the music is of the punk heavy metal type. From what I remember seeing them from the tv news report.
I remember seeing on the news, about a year ago, one of the members got shot while they were performing on stage in Columbus Ohio. :o

Gee, Do you think they could have drawn a more positive audience with those kind of lyrics? :o

anyway, thanks for the info.


Now, can we get back to the topic?


.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Vulgar display of power.. Great Pantera LP

Well, howdy there. You came from out of nowhere! :

LP? So, is Divine Names is getting his influences and ideas from off of LP's ? I'll have to check out who Pantera is.

BtW, greetings, and Welcome Back, atonement!


Well, I check out the lyrics to that LP.
all I could say is , Yes, it is vulgar! and it just leaves you dangling like in a state of what the heck was that all about? It leaves you with a sense of futility! A state of frustrated limbo and depression from all of the depressing lyrics to those songs. The whole LP is depression expressed in anger. I wouldn't doubt the music is of the punk heavy metal type. From what I remember seeing them from the tv news report.
I remember seeing on the news, about a year ago, one of the members got shot while they were performing on stage in Columbus Ohio. :o

Gee, Do you think they could have drawn a more positive audience with those kind of lyrics? :o

anyway, thanks for the info.


Now, can we get back to the topic?


.

I have 3 or 4 Pantera CD's in my collection. Well, probably only 1 because I threw the others away. :P

VDOP was my 2nd favorite release by them, with the best being Far Beyond Driven. That was before I was "becoming" a Christian. :wink: (becoming is a Pantera song for those who don't know.)

 

[DivineNames]

Please do be more precise in pointing out exactly what you say is dubious and not there.

Well if God "hardens" Pharaoh, so God can display his power, and then God kills many Egyptians, some people may consider this to be morally questionable behaviour.

I was suggesting that your spiritual cause/effect idea may not be found in Exodus, that you may be reading into the Bible something which isn't there.

And I see many loaded questions from you to me. Why not just get to the point?

I think I do, "get to the point". I don't understand your complaint here.

 

[DivineNames]

You might want to argue that God knew us even before we were born, but that does not eliminate our freedom of choice, it only states that God knows the carnal and the heavenly natures that are instilled in man according to the choices they make. Even Jesus, as he was in the fleshly body, was tempted. BUT it was his choices that proved the Spirit of God the Father is the power that prevails and it is in those wise Godly choices that we find the everlasting life and light of God. It is in the foolishness of man (carnal ) that we fall to subjection of Demonic influence. Jesus came to show us HOW TO "resist" that temptation, (Adam and Eve's fall) and how to "overcome" (sin) evil.

Let me quote a different Christian view-


"Many believe that man, by his free will, by something that resides in him, is completely able to independently accept or reject God. But this belief is not supported in scripture. As I stated above, man's will by nature is sinful. What then will a sinful free will choose? It will choose sin. His free will, then, would never allow Him to reach out to God.
But we must ask, "What is free will?". Generally it is accepted to mean the freedom to choose according to one's desires. This seems true. But someone is only as free as his nature is free. His will is limited to that which is within his nature. The unregenerate can only choose what his nature allows him to choose. Since he is full of sin, not goodness, his choices can only be sinful.
In other words, a person can choose to do only that which his nature allows him to do. He cannot simply will to suddenly vanish into thin air or fly like Superman because he is incapable of such feats; his nature limits him. So too with the nature of fallen man. He is severely limited by what he can and cannot do.
The sinful man:

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

How then can the good desire to want God come out of the unsaved's evil heart? It cannot! How is he able, in his sinful free will, to desire God when his inclinations are always to reject Him? He cannot. How can he, with his blind and sinful will that is deadened, hardened, and enslaved by sin (Rom. 6:20) ever choose God? He cannot! It is impossible. That's why Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26, NIV).
But some still maintain that God works on a person and slowly teaches and guides him or her into believing. Others say that there is something in a person's free will that enables him to choose God. They maintain that everyone is equally able to accept or reject. But if they are equally free and equally able, then why don't they all equally accept God, or why don't they all equally choose to reject Him? Why are there variations in choice? Are the variations a result of a tendency that God gave them? But God made them that way. Is it because of their environment? But God put them there. Is it because of some physical inclination? But God gave them their bodies. Is it because of their parents' influence? But God gave them their parents.
The fact remains, man is not entirely free; he is sinfully free. The unsaved can act freely, but only within the limits of their sinful nature which cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11), hates God, and is in slavery to sin (Rom. 6:17,20), etc. That is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44), and, "No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65). These are not the statements one would hope to find if the sinner were so free to choose to accept or reject God."

http://www.mslick.com/predestination.htm

 

[DivineNames]

I may be wrong here but, it appears to me that you think God might "perhaps" have something to do with, but you are not quite willing to say that He is indeed, being the One and ONLY ONE who sets all of the Laws or Order into place.
And correct me if I am in error, but it appears to me that you think it is just a matter of fact that is totally outside of some 'Omniscient" Omnipotent" "Omnipresent" Spirit that "we Christians" call God.
Is that right?

What?

 

[DivineNames]

Are you now trying to prove that God uses us all like puppets on a string?

Of course not! I have merely suggested that the Bible, or some verses of it, may teach something along those lines.

I remember you telling BibleBerean to stop showing scripture and to just tell you his mind in the matter. And now you are telling me to give you scripture to back up what I am telling you?
Hmmmmm, curious. :roll: :

bibleberean was quoting Bible verses at me, and there was no clear explanation what bb actually believed about them, or how it was answering the point. That is why I asked bb to respond without quoting scripture.

And yes, I am asking you to back up your claims from scripture, I assure you there is nothing "curious" about that.

:D

 

[DivineNames]

However, I have to tell you, I'm not into playing cat and mouse games. I know well enough from reading some of your previous postings that you can be as precise or as vague as you want in order to get a point across or in order to toy with someone just for the heck of it.

If something I say is "vague", then I have failed to clearly express myself, I wouldn't do that to "toy" with someone, "just for the heck of it"!!

Please do tell me, exactly what is your point? And tell exactly where have I written things of a dubious nature? Precisely.

I have not claimed that you have written things of a dubious nature. My claim was that you may be reading your theory into the Bible, perhaps to explain away the bahaviour of Yahweh, which could be considered to be morally dubious.

 

[antitox]

Let me quote a different Christian view-

"Many believe that man, by his free will, by something that resides in him, is completely able to independently accept or reject God. But this belief is not supported in scripture. As I stated above, man's will by nature is sinful. What then will a sinful free will choose? It will choose sin. His free will, then, would never allow Him to reach out to God.
But we must ask, "What is free will?". Generally it is accepted to mean the freedom to choose according to one's desires. This seems true. But someone is only as free as his nature is free. His will is limited to that which is within his nature. The unregenerate can only choose what his nature allows him to choose. Since he is full of sin, not goodness, his choices can only be sinful.
In other words, a person can choose to do only that which his nature allows him to do. He cannot simply will to suddenly vanish into thin air or fly like Superman because he is incapable of such feats; his nature limits him. So too with the nature of fallen man. He is severely limited by what he can and cannot do.

Coming in late here. I can understand your point and I don't deny what you have put forth. We may have inherited this condition because we were born into it, but since that's where we are, God is seeking a freewill decision to choose Him. Now, knowing that we are in this condition, how can we choose freely?

1. The bible says that a man can only come to God if the Holy Spirit draws him.

----True. But when you are drawn you still have to make the decision to accept, and not all have done that.

2. This sinful condition was part of the plan because the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

---This places man in the middle where he has to decide whether he wants God or not. God wants a decision from us.

So, we can say that there is freewill, but it is not on the basis of having the choice of a different set of circumstances. We have been placed between a rock and a hard place (so to speak) for a reason.

The sinful man:

cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23).
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11).
is lawless, rebellious, unholy, and profane (1 Tim. 1:9).

How then can the good desire to want God come out of the unsaved's evil heart? It cannot! How is he able, in his sinful free will, to desire God when his inclinations are always to reject Him? He cannot. How can he, with his blind and sinful will that is deadened, hardened, and enslaved by sin (Rom. 6:20) ever choose God? He cannot! It is impossible. That's why Jesus said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26, NIV).

This is interesting because this whole thing is about God reaching down to us. Man is essentially helpless when you get down to it. And "Impossible" is probably accurate. This sin enslavement is actually perfect for man to say to God, "I can't do this, I can't deal with something beyond my ability to manage."

Perfect. Now man HAS to reach out for God. And God wants man to reach for Him, to need Him, to desire Him, to serve Him. If you don't have this sin-scenario, then it's quite unlikely that anyone would seek God.

God knows this.

How will the Lord find a people who want to serve Him and worship Him if they can manage everything on their own?

Consider Genesis where Adam and Eve both were told that life would be hard. Life is hard so that man has to struggle. Without a struggle we are self-sufficient and have need of no one. Let's take a look at this example of warning from God:

(Deut 8:11) "Take heed lest you forget the Lord your God, by not keeping his commandments and his ordinances and his statutes, which I command you this day; lest when you have eaten and are full, and have built goodly houses and live in them, and when your herds and flocks multiply, and you silver and gold is multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied, then your heart is lifted up, and you forget the Lord your God...."

But some still maintain that God works on a person and slowly teaches and guides him or her into believing. Others say that there is something in a person's free will that enables him to choose God. They maintain that everyone is equally able to accept or reject. But if they are equally free and equally able, then why don't they all equally accept God, or why don't they all equally choose to reject Him? Why are there variations in choice? Are the variations a result of a tendency that God gave them? But God made them that way. Is it because of their environment? But God put them there. Is it because of some physical inclination? But God gave them their bodies. Is it because of their parents' influence? But God gave them their parents.

God knows everything about everyone and because of that, His judgments will be right and more just than any man could ever hope to be. This is something that has to be trusted about God because He is so much greater than the limited scope of man.

When the choice is presented, and a particular person recognizes the opportunity, he has that chance to accept, and that chance may not necessarily be the scenario you would think or expect, because God knows deep down in a person't heart what they have decided and when.

The fact remains, man is not entirely free; he is sinfully free. The unsaved can act freely, but only within the limits of their sinful nature which cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11), hates God, and is in slavery to sin (Rom. 6:17,20), etc. That is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:44), and, "No one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65). These are not the statements one would hope to find if the sinner were so free to choose to accept or reject God."

You can call it "sinfully free" and that isn't altogether incorrect, but the freedom of choice, within the environment we are placed, is there. You can't choose a different environment. We are stuck with this one. I can admit that. But this is where we have to decide and if we don't choose, then we have already made a choice. Because the choice is, "YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE: Door Number 1, or Door Number 2? :-D

 

[DivineNames]

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' " (Exodus 4:21 NIV)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it." (Exodus 7:1-5 NIV)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. (Exodus 9:12 NIV)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials (Exodus 10:1 NIV)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (Exodus 10:20 NIV)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (Exodus 10:27 NIV)

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. (Exodus 11:10 NIV)

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 14:4 NIV)

The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. (Exodus 14:8 NIV)

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. (Exodus 14:17 NIV)



So the Bible claims that God, "hardened the heart of Pharaoh". As far as I can see, there is nothing to suggest that Pharaoh was stubborn and so had "hardened" himself. And the Bible seems to clearly indicate why God hardened the heart of Pharaoh- so that he could perform his "wonders" (including mass murder), show his power, and so everyone would know that he was the LORD!



But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. (Exodus 9:16 NIV)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."(Exodus 10:1-2 NIV)

The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to youâ€â€so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." (Exodus 11:9 NIV)

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this. (Exodus 14:4 NIV)

And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen." (Exodus 14:17-18 NIV)

 

[Solo]

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' " (Exodus 4:21 NIV)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it." (Exodus 7:1-5 NIV)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. (Exodus 9:12 NIV)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials (Exodus 10:1 NIV)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (Exodus 10:20 NIV)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (Exodus 10:27 NIV)

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. (Exodus 11:10 NIV)

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 14:4 NIV)

The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. (Exodus 14:8 NIV)

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. (Exodus 14:17 NIV)



So the Bible claims that God, "hardened the heart of Pharaoh". As far as I can see, there is nothing to suggest that Pharaoh was stubborn and so had "hardened" himself. And the Bible seems to clearly indicate why God hardened the heart of Pharaoh- so that he could perform his "wonders" (including mass murder), show his power, and so everyone would know that he was the LORD!



But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. (Exodus 9:16 NIV)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."(Exodus 10:1-2 NIV)

The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to youâ€â€so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." (Exodus 11:9 NIV)

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this. (Exodus 14:4 NIV)

And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen." (Exodus 14:17-18 NIV)

And because of man's unnatural reaction to the truth of God, God gives them over to their choice of living in darkness. Not only does he allow them to continue in the darkness of their choice because they reject the truth, he gives them over to a complete reprobate life. Pharoah the SUN worshipper was no different in that he would not release the chosen of God.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:19-32

 

[Relic]

How will the Lord find a people who want to serve Him and worship Him if they can manage everything on their own?

Consider Genesis where Adam and Eve both were told that life would be hard. Life is hard so that man has to struggle. Without a struggle we are self-sufficient and have need of no one. Let's take a look at this example of warning from God:

(Deut 8:11) "Take heed lest you forget the Lord your God, by not keeping his commandments and his ordinances and his statutes, which I command you this day; lest when you have eaten and are full, and have built goodly houses and live in them, and when your herds and flocks multiply, and you silver and gold is multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied, then your heart is lifted up, and you forget the Lord your God...."

Yes, and in the case of Pharoah, he was defiant, unwilling to even recognize God. Pharoah worshipped other gods, and was an evil wicked man. He refused God, and afflicted the Hebrews (God's chosen people).

And because of man's unnatural reaction to the truth of God, God gives them over to their choice of living in darkness. Not only does he allow them to continue in the darkness of their choice because they reject the truth, he gives them over to a complete reprobate life. Pharoah the SUN worshipper was no different in that he would not release the chosen of God.

Precisely the point I was trying to convey in an earlier post in which I said, there are "prepositions" in scripture which give notice of the patterns of behavior and how they are predictable such as the hard hearted, stubbornness of a man.

Divine Names,
Of course God knew beforehand, He knew Pharaoh was already hard hearted. It was evident from the very start in chapter 1 of the Book of Exodus. He set out to kill all first born Hebrews and, so, later in scripture God says to Pharaoh that He(the LORD GOD) will kill all of the firstborn in Egypt. Notice that throughout the first few chapters of Exodus, God knew Pharaoh's heart from the start. and if you study the patterns of behaviors as shown in the scripture, you will notice that much of the evil comes back on the person who sets out to do evil to others.
If one doesn't study the patterns of behaviors from start to finish, they will not see this.

God gives us what we want according to our will. If we refuse to look to Him, God "will" make us that which we are already in our hearts. Behavior pre-dicts the end result. The scriptures clearly show the patterns of behavior(causes) and then the resulting "consequences" of them.

Preposition, shows the already evil hard heart of Pharaoh. Notice, this is before God instructed Moses with what words to say and what actions "will" prevail.
Exodus 1:11. Notice that Pharaoh, right from the start, afflicted the Hebrews with burdens.

Again, Preposition shows the already evil hard heart of Pharaoh. Notice, this is before God instructed Moses with what words to say and what actions "will" prevail.
Exodus 1:22. Pharaoh charges all his people saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter you shall save alive.

Again, Preposition shows the already shows the heart of Pharaoh. Notice, this is before God instructed Moses with what words to say and what actions "will" prevail.
Exodus 2:15 Pharaoh sets out to slay Moses.

Notice, The LORD GOD intervened in Exodus 3:7-9
He said to Moses, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry by reason of their taksmasters; for I know their sorrows.

Notice, God intervenes when the people cry out to him in sorrows(pain) resulting from their afllictions.

By his history(the pattern of behavior) God knew Pharoah's heart would not change, therefore, God said "I will " harden Pharaoh's heart hard. God gives us what we are. God did not take Pharoah's freedom of choice away, God knew by the history and UNREPENTANT heart of Pharaoh that his behavior would not change.


Do a study on the stubbornness of men throughout the bible, you will see a pattern of past behavior before God intervenes and offers them a chance to repent. They either repent or the don't. God does not take away their freedom to choose. And when they refuse, it is an example which shows no good comes out of unrepentance. It is a pattern of behavior that only leads to "death" and destruction. It is not God forcing them to not repent, God is gracious, He always offers a way out of the "consequences" of sin. God already knows the heart of man, whether they will repent or not.







.

 

[DivineNames]

If we refuse to look to Him, God "will" make us that which we are already in our hearts. Behavior pre-dicts the end result. The scriptures clearly show the patterns of behavior(causes) and then the resulting "consequences" of them.

I don't think so, I think you are reading your own theory into the Bible.

Pharaoh may have been cruel, and he may have been somewhat "hardened" form the start. It doesn't change the fact, the Bible is clear that God hardened Pharaoh, and the Bible is clear about the reasons it was done. There is overwhelming evidence from the Bible for what I have claimed, I think you are just trying to apologize for it.

God knew Pharoah's heart would not change, therefore, God said "I will " harden Pharaoh's heart hard. God gives us what we are. God did not take Pharoah's freedom of choice away, God knew by the history and UNREPENTANT heart of Pharaoh that his behavior would not change.

Really?

If God knew Pharaoh's heart, and that was all this was about, then it wouldn't say I WILL HARDEN PHARAOH!! It repeatedly says this. Not only that, it explains the reasons why Pharaoh was being "hardened".


Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."(Exodus 10:1-2 NIV)

 

[DivineNames]

Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the LORD your God to take this deadly plague away from me." (Exodus 10:16-17 NIV)

So Pharaoh has admitted that he sinned. He has asked for forgiveness.

What does God do?

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (Exodus 10:20 NIV)

 

[DivineNames]

I may be wrong here but, it appears to me that you think God might "perhaps" have something to do with, but you are not quite willing to say that He is indeed, being the One and ONLY ONE who sets all of the Laws or Order into place.
And correct me if I am in error, but it appears to me that you think it is just a matter of fact that is totally outside of some 'Omniscient" Omnipotent" "Omnipresent" Spirit that "we Christians" call God.
Is that right?

What?

Relic, were you being deliberately vague so as to "toy" with me?

 

[Relic]

Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the LORD your God to take this deadly plague away from me." (Exodus 10:16-17 NIV)

So Pharaoh has admitted that he sinned. He has asked for forgiveness.

What does God do?

[quote:c4b74]But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (Exodus 10:20 NIV)

[/quote:c4b74]



Keep the argument in line with the time-frame of the happenings in the book of Exodus, please.



Pharaoh proved himself being a liar. God took away the plagues each and every time Pharaoh asked Moses to intercede. Until the final one where God knew Pharaoh would not tell the truth even still. Pharaoh lost his own son because of what he did to the babies he cast into the river before.


Just proves Pharaoh to be a liar and deceptive in his words. He would not let the people go in spite of God taking away the plagues. How many times? The point is that God predicted Pharoah's behavior. He knew Pharaoh's heart right from the start. HE did not take Pharaoh freedom away to choose. He made Pharaoh's heart hard as a result of Pharaoh's own stubborn evil heart.




Just shows that God gave Pharaoh what was in his heart to begin with.

Check out the first chapters of Exodus that I provided that shows, the whole start of behavior.


God sees the heart of man right from the start back in Genesis 6:5, the words reveals to us that God sees what is in the heart of man and the pattern of it.

• Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

What makes you think God didn't already know the heart of Pharaoh, and that he wasn't just revealing to Moses this very same pattern of behavior of the people that was in the days of Noah, are also in Pharaoh?

God reveals through that which what was, to that which will be.

God only gives back to you what you show from out of your heart.



See the spiritual lessons of the seed that takes root , it's relative to many parables in the new testament, the patterns, the cycles of behavior past which are definitely predictors of what is to come. The word of God teaches the behavior of and in all things.

The bible is loaded with lessons of the cycles of things past and present and that which is to come. All being reliant on the Laws of Order set in place by God. It is in math, it is in chemistry, it is in the behaviors of man and beast. The principalities of the spirit are all revealed in the Scriptures. All of creation is set on the cycles of life and death, both in the material and the spiritual. If you have not yet seen these patterns, or are unwilling to explore them, then I don't know how else to bring you awareness to some of the many ways in which God reveals the nature of man and things in life; the carnal material vs. the spiritual. The principals that rule them all are predictive. Maybe it's just too much for you right now. I don't know. :-?


Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.


God given wisdom from the words of Jesus, the one who IS - The Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end:
Matthew 6:21-23
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.



Those are just a small portion of the many verses in scripture that give clue to predictors of character/behaviors in man. It all hinges on what principalities man allows/gives his will over to reign in his behavior.
It's a matter of the WILL. We all have freedom to choose which it is that we will. The consequences are not compromised. God's Laws of Order in all things, don't make the consequences of sin disappear unless we pray for a transformation, and that is a mircal in many cases.

God teaches us what "WILL" come from out of what was. It's all based in the seed that is planted in the heart of man. It is what takes root that is made manifest. No one mocks the creator. You get what you ask for. We all need to learn that lesson, in one way or another. Jesus relayed that much to us in many of the parables he taught.




.

 

[DivineNames]

Just proves Pharaoh to be a liar and deceptive in his words. He would not let the people go in spite of God taking away the plagues.

What??

He hasn't exactly "lied" if God hardens him! :D

 

[DivineNames]

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:17-18 NIV)

Even Paul seems to realize that the "hardening" was done so that God could show his power.

 

[DivineNames]

God knew Pharoah's heart would not change, therefore, God said "I will" harden Pharaoh's heart hard. God gives us what we are. God did not take Pharoah's freedom of choice away, God knew by the history and UNREPENTANT heart of Pharaoh that his behavior would not change.

We obviously aren't going to agree on this, but I do wish to make another point against what you are saying.

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden (Romans 9:18 NIV)

So when it says that God hardens people, I think you are saying that he hasn't really done that. What about when God has mercy? Has he really had mercy on people?

If what you want is some kind of spiritual "cause and effect", where the acts of God are the inevitable consequence of our own actions, then wouldn't this equally apply to God's mercy? We do something righteous, and then we inevitably get a certain amount of mercy in return.

It seems to me that you are moving away from the acts of a personal God, and have changed the message to one where it is merely about the workings of impersonal karmic laws.