Was "all Israel" gathered & saved?

[Lehigh3]

Preterists believe "all Israel" was gathered & raised by God. Their reasoning not only comes from the N.T., with Paul & James 1:1 (addressing the "remnant" scattered abroad) - But squarely from the O.T. prophecies as well.
Very enlightening article I have in my notes by Sam Frost for anyone interested in Preterist eschatology:
"Paul alludes and quotes many Scriptures from the Hebrew in I Cor 15. It has been our focus to stay within the Hosean content and note if we can find any parallels there from possible allusions or "echoes." I have noted the Greek terms from the LXX above since we find those same terms in Paul's "seed analogy" in 15.36-50. Included in those verses is a mention of "Adam", who, like Israel, broke a covenant with God. This was taken up by Paul in Rom 5.12-ff. It is because Israel is like Adam, the "natural body" that she is "corrupt," "weak," and "without honor." Yet, being in this state does not deny the fact that the promise made to her is of no effect or annulled. All die in Adam. Those "in Christ" were once in the same wretched condition as Israel, yet that did not prohibit God from saving them. Therefore, so Paul reasoned, why should it prohibit the dead ones who were promised resurrection and died hearing the word of the Lord through Hosea that one day, "in the last days", they would be raised from the dead? Was the hope "of the twelve tribes of Israel" a lost hope (Acts 26.7)? "
Hosean Allusions In I Cor 15 - Preterism.com -- English

 

[warhorse]

Preterists believe "all Israel" was gathered & raised by God. Their reasoning not only comes from the N.T., with Paul & James 1:1 (addressing the "remnant" scattered abroad) - But squarely from the O.T. prophecies as well.
Very enlightening article I have in my notes by Sam Frost for anyone interested in Preterist eschatology:
"Paul alludes and quotes many Scriptures from the Hebrew in I Cor 15. It has been our focus to stay within the Hosean content and note if we can find any parallels there from possible allusions or "echoes." I have noted the Greek terms from the LXX above since we find those same terms in Paul's "seed analogy" in 15.36-50. Included in those verses is a mention of "Adam", who, like Israel, broke a covenant with God. This was taken up by Paul in Rom 5.12-ff. It is because Israel is like Adam, the "natural body" that she is "corrupt," "weak," and "without honor." Yet, being in this state does not deny the fact that the promise made to her is of no effect or annulled. All die in Adam. Those "in Christ" were once in the same wretched condition as Israel, yet that did not prohibit God from saving them. Therefore, so Paul reasoned, why should it prohibit the dead ones who were promised resurrection and died hearing the word of the Lord through Hosea that one day, "in the last days", they would be raised from the dead? Was the hope "of the twelve tribes of Israel" a lost hope (Acts 26.7)? "
Hosean Allusions In I Cor 15 - Preterism.com -- English

I would disagree with that. The promise to israel was always by faith, remember those lead out of egypt over the age of 20 (except Joshua and Caleb) all died in the wilderness of sin, because they lacked faith. Yet Rahab (who was not a Jew) recieved the promise because of her faith. God destroyed israel time and again, preserving the faithful and destroying the wicked from among his own peaple. The promise was never to national israel.

 

[Lehigh3]

The article is from a Preterist. It would NEVER say the promise was to "national Israel" Only the REMNANT. Read it again. Thank you.

 

[Elijah674]

Preterists believe "all Israel" was gathered & raised by God. Their reasoning not only comes from the N.T., with Paul & James 1:1 (addressing the "remnant" scattered abroad) - But squarely from the O.T. prophecies as well.
Very enlightening article I have in my notes by Sam Frost for anyone interested in Preterist eschatology:
"Paul alludes and quotes many Scriptures from the Hebrew in I Cor 15. It has been our focus to stay within the Hosean content and note if we can find any parallels there from possible allusions or "echoes." I have noted the Greek terms from the LXX above since we find those same terms in Paul's "seed analogy" in 15.36-50. Included in those verses is a mention of "Adam", who, like Israel, broke a covenant with God. This was taken up by Paul in Rom 5.12-ff. It is because Israel is like Adam, the "natural body" that she is "corrupt," "weak," and "without honor." Yet, being in this state does not deny the fact that the promise made to her is of no effect or annulled. All die in Adam. Those "in Christ" were once in the same wretched condition as Israel, yet that did not prohibit God from saving them. Therefore, so Paul reasoned, why should it prohibit the dead ones who were promised resurrection and died hearing the word of the Lord through Hosea that one day, "in the last days", they would be raised from the dead? Was the hope "of the twelve tribes of Israel" a lost hope (Acts 26.7)? "
Hosean Allusions In I Cor 15 - Preterism.com -- English

It had been hard for me at the start of my Born Again walk with My Lord Jesus, many years ago to think of Matt. 24:23 on to come to pass. (to verse 26) But as 'i' see Verse 21-22 being fullfilled right before ones eyes, I also now understand that these very false deluded preterist ones had to come, & have NOW ARRIVED!

And as these Matt. 24:24-26 Truths are now upon us as well, satan will surely DECEIVE the Very Elect if they could be deceived, with these false miracles being allowed by God to do satans deceptional work. And according to 'It Is Written' we have not seen anthing much yet! Just think of what would happen when the false tongues + miracles of zap zap garbage are united by satan??

And from ibid. 27 on? THIS MUST BE SECURED in the Very Elect Matured Mind!

 

[Lehigh3]

well, give my regards to "satan!" bc you seem to think he has some power to delude Christians today like he did for Israel of the 1st century (Babylon became that habitat for demons & the leader of the demons too) Satan fathered the national Jews.

Satan has no power for the Christian today. His "works" were destroyed & he is in the Lake of fire.

Satan is no longer a spiritual being outside of ourselves. He is just an influence to the world at large. He's not in the heavenlies & demons are gone. The last angel poured his vial into the "air" Air is prophetic for the heavenlies where in "that age" as Paul said- satan & his cronies lurked.

The devil, satan, the serpent, etc. is used in different ways in scripture.

You give something more power when you believe in it. And I don't. Satan is just an influence today- a memory of the source of evil. But we are sure capable of creating our own evil as satan did.

 

[warhorse]

well, give my regards to "satan!" bc you seem to think he has some power to delude Christians today like he did for Israel of the 1st century (Babylon became that habitat for demons & the leader of the demons too) Satan fathered the national Jews.

Satan has no power for the Christian today. His "works" were destroyed & he is in the Lake of fire.

Satan is no longer a spiritual being outside of ourselves. He is just an influence to the world at large. He's not in the heavenlies & demons are gone. The last angel poured his vial into the "air" Air is prophetic for the heavenlies where in "that age" as Paul said- satan & his cronies lurked.

The devil, satan, the serpent, etc. is used in different ways in scripture.

You give something more power when you believe in it. And I don't. Satan is just an influence today- a memory of the source of evil. But we are sure capable of creating our own evil as satan did.

Wow!!! that must be a new flavored kool aid.

 

[Who Says]

I would disagree with that. The promise to israel was always by faith, remember those lead out of egypt over the age of 20 (except Joshua and Caleb) all died in the wilderness of sin, because they lacked faith. Yet Rahab (who was not a Jew) recieved the promise because of her faith. God destroyed israel time and again, preserving the faithful and destroying the wicked from among his own peaple. The promise was never to national israel.

That's right. This can be shown in many different ways. Properly laying out what Paul said at Romans chapter 11 is absolutely necessary as it is one of the main references that those who support the idea of all natural Israel being saved allude to for support of their idea. (I did not say it is the only one. Just one of their main ones.)

All flesh was bound under sin in Adam. The Hebrews were no exception. Their flesh was born spiritually dead, confined under sin along with everyone elses. None of God's promises pass by means of the flesh. The only place the flesh gets used is in the body of Christ. And that is because in Christ God's spirit quickens it. Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you." That is so the sinful flesh of the body members does not corrupt the holiness of Christ's body.

Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."

Romans 5:16 "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."

The ASV Bible has the correct rendering of Romans 11:32 "For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all."

The KJV and many other Bibles swayed were by the idea that they thought Paul to be saying all (as in the natural) Israel would be saved, added the word "them".

The designation <9999> in the following reference means: "(an inserted English word)
This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text here. The word may be displayed in italics, in parentheses, or in brackets to indicate that it is NOT in the original text."

Romans 11:32 For <G1063> God <G2316> hath concluded <G4788> them <G9999> all <G3956> in <G1519> unbelief <G0543>, that <G2443> he might have mercy <G1653> upon all <G3956>.

So we already get a clue that what Paul said there is really no different than what he said at Galatians 3:22. And we can learn more to help us be sure.

This is a difficult chapter for many. And it is an emotional subject for many, but I have gone through it many times with many people, and if you would like I will go through it here.

I myself used to think that it showed the natural Israel would be brought out of its slumber. Now I know I was wrong.

I will clip a shortcut to this thread and check back to see how you answer.

 

[reba]

I have asked many times, many forums, Bible studies etc.

Will some one define "all Israel"

I would imagine for every different view there would be a different definition. That would be great at least i could connect the poster with definition.

We dont use the word Israelite to day so will all Israelis be saved?

Would a child of an Israeli mother and a Spanish father be saved?

Would a child of an Israeli father and a Spanish mother be saved?

How far back do you go to claim a person to be an Israelite?

Were the Israelites who died in the wilderness part of all Israel?

How about the Israelites in the wilderness that God killed?

 

[Sam21]

I have asked many times, many forums, Bible studies etc.

Will some one define "all Israel"

I would imagine for every different view there would be a different definition. That would be great at least i could connect the poster with definition.

We dont use the word Israelite to day so will all Israelis be saved?

Would a child of an Israeli mother and a Spanish father be saved?

Would a child of an Israeli father and a Spanish mother be saved?

How far back do you go to claim a person to be an Israelite?

Were the Israelites who died in the wilderness part of all Israel?

How about the Israelites in the wilderness that God killed?

Good questions of which I know of no one who has any good answers.

 

[reba]

Good questions of which I know of no one who has any good answers.

Sam Thanks that is about the most straight forward honest answer i have even gotten!

I dont see a right or wrong answer just different views.


I see "all Israel" as all of Gods people, from Adam to today, tomorrow etc.

 

[Eventide]

Satan has no power for the Christian today. His "works" were destroyed & he is in the Lake of fire.

Exactly what the god of this present evil world would like you to believe..

wow...

 

[jasoncran]

Sam Thanks that is about the most straight forward honest answer i have even gotten!

I dont see a right or wrong answer just different views.


I see "all Israel" as all of Gods people, from Adam to today, tomorrow etc.

that is because the promise to abraham rests not on flesh ,but of faith of the person and also whom that faith is recieved. ot read it learn it. this doesnt negate that prophecy. its says that some of the genetic seed of abraham come back to serve the lord. it doesnt mean we all return the law. only that those that never knew him in the 1000yrs are under the law to learn.

we are going to be the judges in that time reigning with christ etc.
is it fair by god to say well this person died not hearing the gospel and couldnt reject me or accept me and i'm going to give him eternal life and yet those that hear must choose?

 

[Lehigh3]

I see "all Israel" as all of Gods people, from Adam to today, tomorrow etc.

I tend to agree with that statement & the Christian Universalists, in that Israel represents "mankind" in general in the Bible. I'll come back to that.
However, Paul does say in Romans 9 that "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (Ro 9:7) Paul says that the Israel of God (the children of God) are those of the promise & not just the flesh.
Paul also repeats this concept itionn Timothy & Titus. 1Tim1:4:, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
Titus 3:9,
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

History records that the "genealogies" of "Israel" were all destroyed in Herod's temple in AD70.

So from Paul's epistles one can deduce that the Judaizers were not circumcized in their hearts towards God's Son, the Messiah, the Christ- & they were not in "the faith" - as the REMNANT of Israel (of Jacob- the 12 tribes) whether still scattered & didn't return to Jerusalem after the exile (from Babylon or Egypt or the other nations) Paul said there was at his present time a remnant of Israel elected by "grace."

So, when Christ came, those who "missed His visitation" of Israel (Luke 19:40)
Those would lose their soul (life) in the time of God's wrath. That was their great tribulation. Was that "eternal torment" annihilation or just a purification by fire for a limited time? (as some Jews believe) I go with #3.

I don't say Christian Universalism has much Biblical support or is it something to preach to unbelievers- only that it is just as possible as annihilation. Perhaps makes more sense too, considering my vision of hell & someone I loved being raised from fire. I cannot deny the Spirit showing me that when I inquired of God.

Also, Paul suggests some salvation post-mortem for national Israel (which may represent those who denied Christ)-
Romans 9:19-24 NKJV,
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 2324 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

So the "genealogies" of Israel are useless after Christ came. Salvation IN THIS LIFE is definitely for those in the Faith.
Whether the faithless are "saved" eventually , after some purification time in "hell" post-mortem....I think so .....but one would still want to avoid any time "without God."

 

[Lehigh3]

Exactly what the god of this present evil world would like you to believe..

wow...

Well, Paul wasn't referring to "the age to come" or the Church age that came.

The "evil age" he spoke of was the millennium (26-66 AD) Christ said while He was in Israel the all the blood from Abel to Zech. would be required from that wicked generation. That generation was "the mother of harlots" And had become a habitat of demons.
But wait, Paul clarifies "this evil age" in Galatians & Ephesians. The end of the Jewish age was marked by increased demonic activity. Satan was the father of the Jews bc they didn't believe God had sent His Son.

Gal.1:4 NKJV,
4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Remember, the harvest (for the first resurrection ) was at the "end of the age"- Mt 13:39) & the disciples were to look for the accompanying "signs" (Mt.24:1)
And in Isaiah 64-65, the Lord said when Messiah came, He would rid the land of prophets & the "unclean spirits." That occurred at the end of the Jewish age also.
Sin & evil still exists but Satan is no longer the "god of THIS WORLD) "world" is used interchangeably with "age"

God has defeated Satan for the Christian. Yet for the world, his influence is still there. We have been freed from the law of sin & death - in Adam. We're covered by His blood to step on our enemies. James says we are tempted by our own lusts. Not by "satan."

We are capable of creating our own evil we don't even need Satan! But we shun evil (or should)

 

[Who Says]

that is because the promise to abraham rests not on flesh ,but of faith of the person and also whom that faith is recieved. ot read it learn it. this doesnt negate that prophecy. its says that some of the genetic seed of abraham come back to serve the lord. it doesnt mean we all return the law. only that those that never knew him in the 1000yrs are under the law to learn.

we are going to be the judges in that time reigning with christ etc.
is it fair by god to say well this person died not hearing the gospel and couldnt reject me or accept me and i'm going to give him eternal life and yet those that hear must choose?

That is the most common belief right there. But it can be clearly shown that Paul did not even believe that.

It is amazing how scripture can so often appear so clearly to be saying something totally different than what it really is saying all for the lack of one little other piece of scripture to act as a key for unlocking the true statement that it might be seen.

In fact I will go as far as to say that these days if a deeper subject of belief is too common, that in itself is a good indication it is wrong.

 

[Who Says]

Sam Thanks that is about the most straight forward honest answer i have even gotten!

I dont see a right or wrong answer just different views.


I see "all Israel" as all of Gods people, from Adam to today, tomorrow etc.

You seem on the right track. We do not want to forget that all flesh was confined under sin in Adam and sentenced to die. The name given to Jacob after he demonstrated faith by wrestling with the angel of God to receive the blessing was Israel, meaning "prevailer (a contender in a good sense) with God". And this was the name given unto Jacob's spirit of faith that he showed. Any therefore who are a true Israelites must also have that same spirit of faith that prevails until it receives God's blessing. For without it a man gives out under trial.

Romans 9:6 ¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[jasoncran]

That is the most common belief right there. But it can be clearly shown that Paul did not even believe that.

It is amazing how scripture can so often appear so clearly to be saying something totally different than what it really is saying all for the lack of one little other piece of scripture to act as a key for unlocking the true statement that it might be seen.

In fact I will go as far as to say that these days if a deeper subject of belief is too common, that in itself is a good indication it is wrong.

really? why then is the jewish(isreal) nation still around? why do the jews want a temple?

the spaniards took the aztecs. and incans culture out, but the people lived they dont try to take back their cities or try to reinstate the original faith.

what about the greeks? koine greek is dead. hebrew isnt. greeks dont speak ancient greek, koine greek is related but not som much that the average greek will understand you.

hmm romans( dead, though italian when written is latin).


when you can answer that then you have my full attention. the jews want to rebuild their temple big time.do all of them no, but alot do.

 

[Who Says]

I made a very bold statement. I said that Paul himself did not even believe that "All Israel" as in the natural Israel of flesh would be saved in any way different than any other nation of men.

I will prepare that proof for you and present it shortly.

Then I will go through a line by line discussion of Romans chapter 11, unlocking each verse to show its true statement.

But I want it understood up front that I love the fleshly Israelite people as deeply as I love all men and especially those who seek God regardless that they have not yet found him.

I love anyone who cares to try.

 

[Who Says]

really? why then is the jewish(isreal) nation still around? why do the jews want a temple?

the spaniards took the aztecs. and incans culture out, but the people lived they dont try to take back their cities or try to reinstate the original faith.

what about the greeks? koine greek is dead. hebrew isnt. greeks dont speak ancient greek, koine greek is related but not som much that the average greek will understand you.

hmm romans( dead, though italian when written is latin).

when you can answer that then you have my full attention. the jews want to rebuild their temple big time.do all of them no, but alot do.

I will get around to all of that in an orderly fashion that will be easier for all to understand. Please bear with me.

I will say just one thing for you to think about as I am preparing my next post. The reason that God allowed a Muslim Temple to be built on the site of the original Jerusalem Temple is to give us an obvious sign that the rebuilding of that physical prototype temple is men dreaming. We will have no excuse in the end not to have known.

I will add further to this first. The woman Paul refers to at Galatians 1:15 is the Hagar he also speaks of Galatians chapter 4.

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

What Paul spoke of at Galatians 1:15 is the same late birth he spoke to the Corinthian congregation about at 1 Corinthians 15: 1-10.

Notice how after all those he first mentioned he said: 1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

The Jews viewed that fleshly Jerusalem as their mother nurturing them to God in her womb. And if you look before and after Galatians 1:15 in that same chapter you can see that he is there also speaking about his conversion while on the road to Damascus. I believe there may be a more detailed post that I made on the Bible study Law thread.

But my point is Paul said that the fleshly earthly Jerusalem was pictured by Hagar.

Who are the Muslims who have built their temple on the site of the original temple in Jerusalem? They are Hagar's flesh and blood descendants.

That is why I say that God allowing them to build their temple there is a sure sign to us and we will in the end have no excuse not to have known.

 

[Who Says]

Part One:

Did Paul believe that the natural nation of Israel, his brother’s as to the flesh, would be restored as God’s special possession among the nations of this earth?

It has been construed from much of what he said in Romans chapter 11 that he did. But let’s examine this closer.

Romans 11: 13-14 “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.”

We see two things there. Paul did not entertain any false hope of saving all his fleshly Israelite brothers but did hope that he “might save some of them”. And we see that this saving of them was dependent upon “If by any means I may provoke to emulation”.

The word “emulation” communicates to us that Paul hoped to get them to follow after the example he was setting for them as one of their fellow Israelites. And Paul was counting on the enthusiastic support of the Gentile Christians to help him in the preaching of Christ to his fleshly brothers for that purpose. Romans 11: 30-31 “For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.”

Notice how Paul there told the Gentiles that it was for his fellow Israelites of the flesh just as it had been for them, just “as ye in times past”. So what we see here is but a complete role reversal. Where formerly the Gentiles were without God and living in sin but a remnant, a small number as compared to the whole of them was now being saved, the exact reversal had happened to his fleshly Israelite brothers. They now were without God and living in sin awaiting God’s mercy in Christ just as these Gentiles had been, so that a remnant of them might yet be saved.

And Paul was dependent on these Gentiles to support him in offering God’s mercy to his fleshly brothers. That is why he primed them as he did in chapter 10 before he told them all of this.

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

(To be continued)