Was "all Israel" gathered & saved?

[Who Says]

Part Two:

Romans 9:3 “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:”

If Paul believed that this was God’s temporary purpose for that fleshly nation as a whole to merely be blinded until the full number of the Gentiles came in he would not have had such despair as we see there at Romans 9: 3 as that would have been a lack of faith. And Paul was certainly not short on faith.

How did he comfort himself concerning it? While at the same time revealing truth to the Gentiles? Romans 9:6 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:”

Romans 9:8 “That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 9:14-16 “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Then Paul compares his unrepentant fleshly Israelite brothers to Pharaoh of all men!

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And look what Paul calls the unrepentant stubborn hearted ones who among his fellow Israelites are Israelites only as to the flesh:

Romans 9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And why does Paul say God refuses to show mercy on these “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”?

Romans 9: 23-24 “And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles”

But we know Paul yet knew that a remnant out of that fleshly nation remained to yet be saved. For he went on to tell us the conclusion of how God would finish all of this:

Romans 9:25 “As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.”

To provoke that remnant to jealousy and thus get them to emulate Paul and the saved Gentiles this is how Paul said it would be done:

Romans 10:19-21 “But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

That remnant would then enter Christ where: Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

(To be continued)

 

[Who Says]

Part Three:

Here in verse one the thought is whether or not God had thrust off the nation in its entirety. The Greek word “laos” (here used for “people”) means “the populous in general”. This differs from the Greek word “demos” which would have been used if Paul meant that God has not cast off the nation of people as a whole. Both of those words are translated by the one word “people”, but “laos” is in the general sense denoting that Paul was asking “has God cast of his people in general” or in other words, “he has not cast off his people all of them together in their entirety”.

Romans 11:1 “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”

Paul used himself being a Jew and a late birthed Christian from out of that nation as proof that there yet is a remnant among that nation. Remember the Galatians post (March 7 at 10:59PM #19) earlier in this thread?
*****************

That is why Paul proceeds to talk only about the evidence that a remnant would be yet saved. And his concern is “then at this present time also” because it was then at that present time (not totally in the future as many apply it) that Paul was concerned about getting the cooperation of the Gentiles to preach to them. Again using the Greek word "laos" for "people" Paul says:

Romans 11: 2-5 “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

But of course it still applies today that God is gathering a remnant from them as he is all of the nations. We see though from this that this has long been being done, ever since that day Paul spoke it.
*****************

And now Paul proceeds to show that it is the same “election of grace” saving that remnant as is saving the Gentiles, even as he point to in verse 5 calling them “a remnant according to the election of grace”.

Romans 11: 6 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
*******************

Next we see that Paul groups both the remnant from out of that natural nation together with the Gentiles referring to them both together as “the election”, saying:

Romans 11: 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
*******************

And now as to why that remnant yet remained therein that fleshly nation caught blinded, Paul says:

Romans 11: 8-10 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.”
*******************

Referring to that remnant of the elect which is yet in that nation Paul now asks:

Romans 11: 11-12 “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?”
********************

And now Paul focuses on his hope that he might save some of that nation’s people (that remnant according to election) and how he will do this by provoking that remnant that yet remains blindly among that blind nation with the help of the Gentiles to preach to them.

Romans 11: 13-14 “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.”
*****************
Here he tells the Gentiles the value of this which puts us in mind that of the whole of the Israelite and Gentile saints Lamentations 4:2 says, “The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!”

Romans 11: 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
********************
(To be continued)

 

[Who Says]

Part Four:

Paul here in verse 16-20 scolds the Gentiles for their high-mindedness in thinking they were more special than that nation God had not spared and be speaking abusively of those discarded branches as they were. The branches are the Twelve Tribes of Israel, and these Gentiles being grafted into the tree to replace the natural Tribes or branches of Israel were as spiritual Tribes of Israel. The individual people are the olives that grow on these branches. Paul tells them that they ought to not think that those natural Tribes could not be grafted back in and they took back out of that tree for it is the root (the firstfruit Jesus Christ) that makes them holy and not anything special about they themselves.

Romans 11: 16-20 “For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:”

It should be noted that Paul never said there that those natural branches would be grafted back in but only that God could. This is good evidence they won’t be, for Paul would have made it clear they were going to be if they were.
*******************

Next, Paul clearly says the natural branches were not spared. Those natural branches were the Twelve Tribes of natural Israel and the people like olives that grow on those branches.

Romans 11: 21 “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.”
**********************

And what Paul says next also shows the permanence of that cutting off as Paul contrasts it to them being permanently cut off, basically like telling “the situation can be reversed as it is not impossible for God.

Romans 11: 22 “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
*********************

Paul only said they could be grafted back in if they repent. Paul did not say they would but only that they could be. And again, these branches that could be if they repent grafted back in are the natural Twelve tribes of Israel.
Romans 11: 23 “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.”
******************

Here in verse 24 Paul concludes that comparison with a bit more convincing to the Gentiles and yet does not say they will be grafted back in. His point is to convince these high-minded Gentiles to start walking in love toward all instead of pride toward some.

Romans 11: 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
****************

Here it gets real interesting. That phrase “blindness in part” means “part of the reason” but not all of the reason. It is only part of the reason because it is only true in connection with the part of that natural Israel who also are true Israelites by the spirit of faith necessary to election. Paul had faith yet he was a late birth due to blindness. That obviously served God’s purpose to allow Paul to remain blind a bit longer so that he would be able to understand why a part of the natural remnant would remain blind for a period of time. And in view of all of the evidence we have discussed to this point that ought to now be clear.

Romans 11: 25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”
********************

That is why, speaking of the spiritual elect Israel that are also of the natural Israel, Paul says:

Romans 11: 26-27 “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”
This was said not of the entire nation but of that remnant of true Israelites by the spirit of faith like that of Abraham.
*******************


Now again speaking of that remnant of spiritual Israelites yet among those natural branches still blind, and adding counsel to it to gain the help of the gentiles in zealously preaching to his fleshly brothers, Paul adds:

Romans 11: 28-31 “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.”
******************

In verse 32 Paul tells the Gentiles that God has concluded that entire nation in unbelief just as he had them and still has their entire Gentile nations, “that he might have mercy upon them all”, that is to say, upon all that would receive the word of God’s grace through preaching and repent.

Romans 11: 32 “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.”
*****************

Paul concludes:

Romans 11: 33-36 “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[Who Says]

I worked very hard on this all night long and thoroughly enjoyed the review.

I most likely have a few brain scrambled points in it as I became very tired but kept trucking.

I want to re-emphasize that this is not anti-semitic or hate in any way. One of the chief reasons that the larger part of the natural Israelite family remains blind is the pride they have in believing the promise passed to them through their flesh and blood ties.

When we don't teach this correctly we only bolster that pride and contribute to the position they are in. It is not an easy thing and in fact can be a dangerous thing to speak boldly out of love and tell the truth concerning this. No one ought try who cannot do it in the tenderest and most loving way.

This very subject is what caused the group at the last Bible chat site to stone me, falsely outright calling me a Jew hater and anti-semitic.

But I speak God's truth anyway because I love God and I love my neighbor. What men wish to do to me for loving them I cannot control. But neither will I let them stop me from doing the work of my Lord in a loving way.

 

[warhorse]

Preterists believe "all Israel" was gathered & raised by God. Their reasoning not only comes from the N.T., with Paul & James 1:1 (addressing the "remnant" scattered abroad) - But squarely from the O.T. prophecies as well.
Very enlightening article I have in my notes by Sam Frost for anyone interested in Preterist eschatology:
"Paul alludes and quotes many Scriptures from the Hebrew in I Cor 15. It has been our focus to stay within the Hosean content and note if we can find any parallels there from possible allusions or "echoes." I have noted the Greek terms from the LXX above since we find those same terms in Paul's "seed analogy" in 15.36-50. Included in those verses is a mention of "Adam", who, like Israel, broke a covenant with God. This was taken up by Paul in Rom 5.12-ff. It is because Israel is like Adam, the "natural body" that she is "corrupt," "weak," and "without honor." Yet, being in this state does not deny the fact that the promise made to her is of no effect or annulled. All die in Adam. Those "in Christ" were once in the same wretched condition as Israel, yet that did not prohibit God from saving them. Therefore, so Paul reasoned, why should it prohibit the dead ones who were promised resurrection and died hearing the word of the Lord through Hosea that one day, "in the last days", they would be raised from the dead? Was the hope "of the twelve tribes of Israel" a lost hope (Acts 26.7)? "
Hosean Allusions In I Cor 15 - Preterism.com -- English

Israel is a nation, Judiesm is the faith. All of israel have not been gathered at all.

 

[jasoncran]

I worked very hard on this all night long and thoroughly enjoyed the review.

I most likely have a few brain scrambled points in it as I became very tired but kept trucking.

I want to re-emphasize that this is not anti-semitic or hate in any way. One of the chief reasons that the larger part of the natural Israelite family remains blind is the pride they have in believing the promise passed to them through their flesh and blood ties.

When we don't teach this correctly we only bolster that pride and contribute to the position they are in. It is not an easy thing and in fact can be a dangerous thing to speak boldly out of love and tell the truth concerning this. No one ought try who cannot do it it in the tenderest and most loving way.

This very subject is what caused the group at the last Bible chat site to stone me, falsely outright calling me a Jew hater and anti-semitic.

But I speak God's truth anyway because I love God and I love my neighbor. What men wish to do to me for loving them I cannot control. But neither will I let them stop me from doing the work of my Lord in a loving way.

what you are saying isnt anti-semitic. you aren saying in your post that the jews deserve the holocaust or the state of isreal must be eliminated. i know you argument. i will tell when theres some here that do hate jews.we have had them.

 

[Lehigh3]

who says,
Yes, Paul is speaking about the Jews & Gentiles in the New Covenant (of grace)

I agree almost except that Paul & James were referring to "the present time" as far as God's faithful REMNANT. James wrote to them abroad [Jam.1:1] This was discussed in the OP article in Hosea. God would bring back the Northern & Southern tribes as one in the spiritual realm, FOR HIS NAMES SAKE.

by Ward Fenley/eschatology.com:

"Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?​

Paul was not addressing physically dead people here but the living remnant which had not yet believed on Christ. Their fullness would soon come. And that fullness would be, life from the dead (plural). What is this fullness and life from the dead?

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. {26} And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: {27} For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

It is all about the New Covenant, not an imaginary blessing brought about by physical death. And what is the fullness? "When I shall take
away their sins."

1 Corinthians 15:15-16 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not rising (present tense). 16 For if the dead are not rising (present tense), then is not Christ raised (perfect tense or past tense):​

Here is an exceedinly powerful testimony for this risingz from the dead:

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.​

Certainly Paul is not commanding physically dead people to arise from the dead (nekrown). Paul is commanding unbelievers to trust Christ and arise from the dead ones.
Likewise the plural nekrown is used here:

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

It is clear that Paul was commanding the unbeliever to believe and partake in this rising from the dead to be united to the body which was being raised from the dead."

 

[Who Says]

who says,
Yes, Paul is speaking about the Jews & Gentiles in the New Covenant (of grace)

I agree almost except that Paul & James were referring to "the present time" as far as God's faithful REMNANT. James wrote to them abroad [Jam.1:1] This was discussed in the OP article in Hosea. God would bring back the Northern & Southern tribes as one in the spiritual realm, FOR HIS NAMES SAKE.

by Ward Fenley/eschatology.com:

"Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
​

Paul was not addressing physically dead people here but the living remnant which had not yet believed on Christ. Their fullness would soon come. And that fullness would be, life from the dead (plural). What is this fullness and life from the dead?

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. {26} And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: {27} For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
​

It is all about the New Covenant, not an imaginary blessing brought about by physical death. And what is the fullness? "When I shall take
away their sins."

1 Corinthians 15:15-16 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not rising (present tense). 16 For if the dead are not rising (present tense), then is not Christ raised (perfect tense or past tense):
​

Here is an exceedinly powerful testimony for this risingz from the dead:

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
​

Certainly Paul is not commanding physically dead people to arise from the dead (nekrown). Paul is commanding unbelievers to trust Christ and arise from the dead ones.
Likewise the plural nekrown is used here:

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
​

It is clear that Paul was commanding the unbeliever to believe and partake in this rising from the dead to be united to the body which was being raised from the dead."

You seem to think I said something about raising the physical? I do not see how you get that idea?

Of course we know (or at least I assume that WE, or most of us know) that these blind ones are only spiritually dead and that is why Paul seeks to in that present time and in this present time (until the full number come in) call them to raise up to life in Christ.

But to use a better term for describing the condition of the portion of the fleshly nation who are the true Israelites by the spirit of the faith that Abraham had (which Paul being a late birth was for a time) I feel more comfortable saying they are spiritually asleep (that spirit of slumber), whereas the part of natural Israel that do not have that spirit of the faith like Abraham our spiritually dead. That spiritually dead part of the natural nation Paul referred to as "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction". But the remnant just sleep.

What James said and what Hosea prophecies concerning has nothing to do with restoring any part of the flesh nation. Paul began those spiritual Israleites that had already come in both of Jews and of Gentiles, working their faith through love in the present work of both gathering in other sheep to the fold and to the provoking the remaining remnant (from both Jews and Gentiles) to come into the New Covenant.

Paul's entire point is just as Peter's, that the Gentiles were acting as a respecter of men (acting with partiality) but God is not partial (not a respecter of men as those Gentiles were acting).

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)"

 

[Who Says]

Preterists believe "all Israel" was gathered & raised by God. Their reasoning not only comes from the N.T., with Paul & James 1:1 (addressing the "remnant" scattered abroad) - But squarely from the O.T. prophecies as well.
Very enlightening article I have in my notes by Sam Frost for anyone interested in Preterist eschatology:
"Paul alludes and quotes many Scriptures from the Hebrew in I Cor 15. It has been our focus to stay within the Hosean content and note if we can find any parallels there from possible allusions or "echoes." I have noted the Greek terms from the LXX above since we find those same terms in Paul's "seed analogy" in 15.36-50. Included in those verses is a mention of "Adam", who, like Israel, broke a covenant with God. This was taken up by Paul in Rom 5.12-ff. It is because Israel is like Adam, the "natural body" that she is "corrupt," "weak," and "without honor." Yet, being in this state does not deny the fact that the promise made to her is of no effect or annulled. All die in Adam. Those "in Christ" were once in the same wretched condition as Israel, yet that did not prohibit God from saving them. Therefore, so Paul reasoned, why should it prohibit the dead ones who were promised resurrection and died hearing the word of the Lord through Hosea that one day, "in the last days", they would be raised from the dead? Was the hope "of the twelve tribes of Israel" a lost hope (Acts 26.7)? "
Hosean Allusions In I Cor 15 - Preterism.com -- English

The main problem with this as I see it is not so much in that everything he said is true or untrue, (though much of it as I see it is untrue) but in that he has a wrong focus. As a result the underlaying spirit of what he says is to support his belief that the physical fleshly Israel is to whom the promises were given. Therefore his logic supports his agenda, though that is a subtle thing I am sure he does not realize.

Past Israelites who are by Paul's time physically dead are yet only true Israelites by the spirit of the faith of Abraham while Romans 9:8 "... They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God".

He has made some fancy arguments which when one has a limited knowledge of scripture could be very enticing. And sadly many are not so equipped to see their way through what he says. This is because they have an erroneous idea that all of God's chosen were sealed and sanctified in Christ from before the founding of the world. (The world's founding correctly beginning with the birth of Adam's first child.) Before that founding was when Adam sinned and all were bound up to sin in him as God sentenced Adams flesh to die and return to the ground from which it came.

Those that believe this sanctified and saved "before the founding of the world" idea, let go unnoticed that the names did not even begin being written into the book of life until "FROM the founding of the world".

And they let go unnoticed all the scripture that shows us this is because these men must first be born, second demonstrate a spirit of faith like Abraham's, and be examined by God as he inspects the ways of their heart just as those who he rewards according to their works.

No elect is called by name until they have lived and proved to have a basic spirit of faith which God then credits to them as righteousness and calls them into Christ where the ransom maintains that imputation of righteousness. And this is for a specific purpose, that they have time and freedom to grow to the image of Christ while cooperating with the Holy Spirit and bath in the water of the word.

And they have not won that race until they have achieved holiness on their own merit. For that is its purpose, to bring all things back to God's holiness, beginning with them as firstfruits with the firstfruit (one in his body), so that they can serve as kings/priests with Christ to assist the rest of us to also do that.

 

[Lehigh3]

who says,
The article already noted that the Hebrews of faith were of the promise. God gathering Judah & Israel as one stick meant the 12 tribes. You just repeat what we are saying about national Israel being the objects of His wrath. But it is the timing that you miss. This is history & has been fulfilled. And that wrath was fulfilled in Luke 21:20-22.

He has made some fancy arguments which when one has a limited knowledge of scripture could be very enticing. And sadly many are not so equipped to see their way through what he says. This is because they have an erroneous idea that all of God's chosen were sealed and sanctified in Christ from before the founding of the world. (The world's founding correctly beginning with the birth of Adam's first child.) Before that founding was when Adam sinned and all were bound up to sin in him as God sentenced Adams flesh to die and return to the ground from which it came.

He made an excellent theological observation BASED on scripture. You seem to go off on a tangent here into blending this & me with some kind of Calvinist doctrine. I don't follow you at all there.
But lastly, God did not condemn Adam's flesh to die that day. Adam did not physically die that day - so the serpent deceived them in that the "sin" or enmity brought another kind of death. Spiritual death. God pronounced spiritual death that day & from God bc of the 1st "sin."
We are all "dead" in Adam" until we are made alive in Christ. This is speaking of the spirit.
Mankind would have died physically anyway had they not sinned & kept eating from the tree of spiritual life. Only difference is that they would have spent a more blessed & innocent time with God. God had to have planned or known to make provision for mankind's sins bc the knowledge of good & evil was inevitable for His creation. (Were we to continue to talk with snakes too?!)
I think we agree halfway- National Israel today was not God ordained. [God left the building in AD70.] But you still cannot see in scripture that God gathered Israel (the 12 tribes) in the spiritual realm - at the end of the Jewish age.

 

[tim-from-pa]

The title of this thread is tempting that I contribute in that my whole theology and intense study of the whole bible involves the Lord, His Kingdom and Israel.

However, I see that this is a Preterist article and for that reason I have refrained from stating my opinion because the purpose of this thread is not to convert people to one way or the other (futurist) way. I respect that position.

That being said, for some of us futurists I would expect the same courtesy especially if we start our own thread dealing with futurist positions. I'm bookmarking this comment for future reference.

 

[Who Says]

who says,
The article already noted that the Hebrews of faith were of the promise. God gathering Judah & Israel as one stick meant the 12 tribes. You just repeat what we are saying about national Israel being the objects of His wrath. But it is the timing that you miss. This is history & has been fulfilled. And that wrath was fulfilled in Luke 21:20-22.

He made an excellent theological observation BASED on scripture. You seem to go off on a tangent here into blending this & me with some kind of Calvinist doctrine. I don't follow you at all there.
But lastly, God did not condemn Adam's flesh to die that day. Adam did not physically die that day - so the serpent deceived them in that the "sin" or enmity brought another kind of death. Spiritual death. God pronounced spiritual death that day & from God bc of the 1st "sin."
We are all "dead" in Adam" until we are made alive in Christ. This is speaking of the spirit.
Mankind would have died physically anyway had they not sinned & kept eating from the tree of spiritual life. Only difference is that they would have spent a more blessed & innocent time with God. God had to have planned or known to make provision for mankind's sins bc the knowledge of good & evil was inevitable for His creation. (Were we to continue to talk with snakes too?!)
I think we agree halfway- National Israel today was not God ordained. [God left the building in AD70.] But you still cannot see in scripture that God gathered Israel (the 12 tribes) in the spiritual realm - at the end of the Jewish age.

You said, "that wrath was fulfilled in Luke 21:20-22". And from that point forward the natural Israel has been like any other nation of this world, right? But I do not aquaint that wrath and promises together. The promises were never made to the flesh in the first place. They were punished for being unfaithful to a covenant agreement. That is not a promise unless a promise has conditions.

The only promise God gave the flesh (if you want to call it that) is that if they would faithfully keep their covenant, THEN, God would make direct payment of those promises to them instead of their having to go through faith in Christ to get them.

That is what Jesus was talking about at John 10:1 when he said that, Anyone that "climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber". He had earned the right to the payment of the Law'a promises by fulfilling that Law. They did not. Therefore they would be as a theif and a robber to try to enter God's fold (to be shepherds in it) any way but through Jesus. The covenants are all about shepherding God's sheep with Christ. This is a key understanding I just gave here.

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.



You are right that I did misunderstand what that writer said. But I yet see things about his statement I do not agree with. I am just trying to understand the points both you and he are making. Nothing else.

As far as this Calvinist stuff, I know nothing about him and do not care to know anything about him. For decades I have been led only by God's spirit and my own copy of the Bible plus a few basic dictionaries. I studied translation on my own.

I do not trust men at all. Not even my own self. Never have and will not until the revealing of the true "sons of God".

I will listen to them only to compare what they say to how I myself see things. I am humbly aware that I am a man, too, with an even greater capacity to deceive my self than they.

If I do not run this race to victory, they will be guilt free of having caused it.

 

[Lehigh3]

who says,
I did say some things you attest to I agree with.
But it seems where we don't agree is the prophecy in the Bible about the "thousand years"
The "millennium" is a prophetic term used by God to represent the thousand years from David's fallen tent until Jesus & the apostles. The Lord was rebuilding David tabernacle through the remnant Jews who were supposed to be a light to the Gentiles in the 1st century AD.
The "thousand years" is an elastic term- but its use in only Revelation renders it prophetic symbolism. It was once again a 40 yr. period when Israel (as a covenant nation) was in the wilderness & God gave them 40 yrs. to merge with the New Covenant or Christianity.
The New Heavens & earth are present right now. The spiritual city is as on earth as it is in heaven.

Who & also what was thrown into the Lake of Fire? Gog & Magog, God's enemies who were trying to oppress & eliminate the "kingdom of God" from the true Israel of God- Abraham's Seed.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of Fire. Now you need to inquire about Israel's "book of lfe" There is the "Lamb's book of life" But there was also Israel & her "books."

Many Jews do don't believe in an "eternal" hell. Eternal is more of an "age long" punishment (aion) But many believe 1 yr. max. for a soul to be purified in hell by fire.

But my point is that the "thousand years" will never be literal. You shouldn't make the same mistake the Jews of that generation did- looking for a material kingdom.

Rev.20 is reflective of the 40 yr. period when the martyrs did reign with Christ. AD26-66) approx. Satan was bound at the cross so that the gospel could be received by all the nations (which Paul says was preached to every creature under heaven) Then after the "millennium" we have the father of the Jews (Satan) gather GOg & MAGOG to battle at Armegeddon, of course.Satan's short time for the "great tribulation 3 1/2 yrs.- Down goes the literal earthly "temple" (God 's theocratic relationship with Israel ends). Then the resurrection of the dead of Israel & the sea were raised & judged.

Those vessels of wrath" for "dishonor" if they are not in Israel's "book of life." Notice "death & Hades" (which Christ had the keys of) is thrown into the L.O.F.

So we have "no more death" as in eternal life. And Hades was destroyed & the O.T. patriarchs were raised to their heavenly abode. We have the spiritual counterpart on earth with the New Jerusalem. They have theirs in the kingdom of heaven. That's the 3rd heaven- where God's throne is.

We go directly to our "mansion" when we physically die.

 

[Who Says]

who says,
I did say some things you attest to I agree with.
But it seems where we don't agree is the prophecy in the Bible about the "thousand years"
The "millennium" is a prophetic term used by God to represent the thousand years from David's fallen tent until Jesus & the apostles. The Lord was rebuilding David tabernacle through the remnant Jews who were supposed to be a light to the Gentiles in the 1st century AD.
The "thousand years" is an elastic term- but its use in only Revelation renders it prophetic symbolism. It was once again a 40 yr. period when Israel (as a covenant nation) was in the wilderness & God gave them 40 yrs. to merge with the New Covenant or Christianity.
The New Heavens & earth are present right now. The spiritual city is as on earth as it is in heaven.

Who & also what was thrown into the Lake of Fire? Gog & Magog, God's enemies who were trying to oppress & eliminate the "kingdom of God" from the true Israel of God- Abraham's Seed.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of Fire. Now you need to inquire about Israel's "book of lfe" There is the "Lamb's book of life" But there was also Israel & her "books."

Many Jews do don't believe in an "eternal" hell. Eternal is more of an "age long" punishment (aion) But many believe 1 yr. max. for a soul to be purified in hell by fire.

But my point is that the "thousand years" will never be literal. You shouldn't make the same mistake the Jews of that generation did- looking for a material kingdom.

Rev.20 is reflective of the 40 yr. period when the martyrs did reign with Christ. AD26-66) approx. Satan was bound at the cross so that the gospel could be received by all the nations (which Paul says was preached to every creature under heaven) Then after the "millennium" we have the father of the Jews (Satan) gather GOg & MAGOG to battle at Armegeddon, of course.Satan's short time for the "great tribulation 3 1/2 yrs.- Down goes the literal earthly "temple" (God 's theocratic relationship with Israel ends). Then the resurrection of the dead of Israel & the sea were raised & judged.

Those vessels of wrath" for "dishonor" if they are not in Israel's "book of life." Notice "death & Hades" (which Christ had the keys of) is thrown into the L.O.F.

So we have "no more death" as in eternal life. And Hades was destroyed & the O.T. patriarchs were raised to their heavenly abode. We have the spiritual counterpart on earth with the New Jerusalem. They have theirs in the kingdom of heaven. That's the 3rd heaven- where God's throne is.

We go directly to our "mansion" when we physically die.

Those things that happened there in relation to Israel's history are prophetic shadows which have a greater fulfillment, also.

 

[Lehigh3]

Those things that happened there in relation to Israel's history are prophetic shadows which have a greater fulfillment, also.

And they are written, where? !
What could be more fulfilling than going to one's own "mansion" when they die & are resurrected/ raptured/ returned to Christ?

The 3rd heaven is it. And no one has returned to tell you any differently.;)

 

[warhorse]

And they are written, where? !
What could be more fulfilling than going to one's own "mansion" when they die & are resurrected/ raptured/ returned to Christ?

The 3rd heaven is it. And no one has returned to tell you any differently.;)

Eternity with christ, a servant to him in his mansion.

 

[Who Says]

Preterists believe "all Israel" was gathered & raised by God. Their reasoning not only comes from the N.T., with Paul & James 1:1 (addressing the "remnant" scattered abroad) - But squarely from the O.T. prophecies as well.
Very enlightening article I have in my notes by Sam Frost for anyone interested in Preterist eschatology:
"Paul alludes and quotes many Scriptures from the Hebrew in I Cor 15. It has been our focus to stay within the Hosean content and note if we can find any parallels there from possible allusions or "echoes." I have noted the Greek terms from the LXX above since we find those same terms in Paul's "seed analogy" in 15.36-50. Included in those verses is a mention of "Adam", who, like Israel, broke a covenant with God. This was taken up by Paul in Rom 5.12-ff. It is because Israel is like Adam, the "natural body" that she is "corrupt," "weak," and "without honor." Yet, being in this state does not deny the fact that the promise made to her is of no effect or annulled. All die in Adam. Those "in Christ" were once in the same wretched condition as Israel, yet that did not prohibit God from saving them. Therefore, so Paul reasoned, why should it prohibit the dead ones who were promised resurrection and died hearing the word of the Lord through Hosea that one day, "in the last days", they would be raised from the dead? Was the hope "of the twelve tribes of Israel" a lost hope (Acts 26.7)? "
Hosean Allusions In I Cor 15 - Preterism.com -- English

If what you mean is that he has already turned away all of the ungodliness from physical Israel that he is going to, then, that we are in agreement concerning as it relates to the physical Israel. That was done by transferring all who were really Israel into the spiritual Israel. The physical Israel we see today is not really Israel, just as Paul said at Romans chapter 9. God works with them as he does any other nation of men. God now works to turn ungodliness away from spiritual Israel.

We need understand that Jacob was the figure of Christ. Just as Jacob was the father of the children of physical Israel, so Jesus became the father of spiritual Israel. That is why Jacob is not called by the name Israel there. Jesus is now that Israel he typified. Jesus, on that fleshly Jacob's behalf, and on all true Israelites of faith's behalf, became the one that "prevails with God" for them.

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

It would be an understatement to call Jesus, "The mighty God" if he were in fact "the almighty God". The first five verses of Isaiah chapter 11 tell us how Jesus is called "Wonderful" and "Counselor". Further, a prince is the Son of a higher up king.

So also when it calls Jesus "everlasting father" there it is talking about how Jesus corresponds to Jacob being the father of Israel. Jesus has become the "everlasting father" of spiritual Israel (all men of faith in this earth). And that is yet being completed as new men of faith gather to him.

The spiritual fulfillment of turning away ungodliness from Jacob is said to be the cleansing and refining of the church, which is true in part. But it is also in these following prophecies:

Psalms 2:8 "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."

Psalms 59:2 “Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men."

Psalms 110:1 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

So the spiritual fulfillment of this yet has not been completed.

 

[Lehigh3]

If what you mean is that he has already turned away all of the ungodliness from physical Israel that he is going to, then, that we are in agreement concerning as it relates to the physical Israel. That was done by transferring all who were really Israel into the spiritual Israel. The physical Israel we see today is not really Israel, just as Paul said at Romans chapter 9. God works with them as he does any other nation of men. God now works to turn ungodliness away from spiritual Israel.

We need understand that Jacob was the figure of Christ. Just as Jacob was the father of the children of physical Israel, so Jesus became the father of spiritual Israel. That is why Jacob is not called by the name Israel there. Jesus is now that Israel he typified. Jesus, on that fleshly Jacob's behalf, and on all true Israelites of faith's behalf, became the one that "prevails with God" for them.

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.â€

It would be an understatement to call Jesus, "The mighty God" if he were in fact "the almighty God". The first five verses of Isaiah chapter 11 tell us how Jesus is called "Wonderful" and "Counselor". Further, a prince is the Son of a higher up king.

So also when it calls Jesus "everlasting father" there it is talking about how Jesus corresponds to Jacob being the father of Israel. Jesus has become the "everlasting father" of spiritual Israel (all men of faith in this earth). And that is yet being completed as new men of faith gather to him.

The spiritual fulfillment of turning away ungodliness from Jacob is said to be the cleansing and refining of the church, which is true in part. But it is also in these following prophecies:

Psalms 2:8 "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."

Psalms 59:2 “Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men."

Psalms 110:1 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

So the spiritual fulfillment of this yet has not been completed.

God would make Jesus' enemies his footstool after His ascension. The apostles were to sit on thrones & judge the 12 tribes during this 40 yr. wilderness period again. Read 1 Chronicles 28 for an understanding of Christ as the "lion of Judah" fulfillment.
This happened during Israel's great tribulation period. And of course His kingdom has no end & more men come to Christ. (Eph 3:21)


Psalm 110 NKJV


–A Psalm of David.

1 The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.â€
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.â€

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

This is history during "the thousand years" Not a reality or spiritual reality when Christ returns for "US"

 

[Who Says]

God would make Jesus' enemies his footstool after His ascension. The apostles were to sit on thrones & judge the 12 tribes during this 40 yr. wilderness period again. Read 1 Chronicles 28 for an understanding of Christ as the "lion of Judah" fulfillment.
This happened during Israel's great tribulation period. And of course His kingdom has no end & more men come to Christ. (Eph 3:21)


Psalm 110 NKJV


–A Psalm of David.

1 The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!

3 Your people shall be volunteers
In the day of Your power;
In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning,
You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He shall lift up the head.

This is history during "the thousand years" Not a reality or spiritual reality when Christ returns for "US"

We are very close to agreement but for one small thing. In what you refer to there in the OT, Moses and the Law of God as given through he and Aaron did begin judging them there in the wilderness.

Where I see the confusion is that you are viewing the entirety of God's harvest as first fruits with the principal first fruit Christ. And that just is not so. Where there are first fruits there is also the late harvest.

The first fruits in Christ are one body with Christ in that they too correspond to Moses and Aaron through who judging was done.

In fact, the entire purpose of giving the law through Moses and Aaron in the flesh was to judge men. And that Law was given while they were yet in the wilderness. And throgh Moses and Aaron they were judged by for a while by it yet in that wilderness.

I think you know that but have just not yet connected all of the dots.

This statement of Jesus applies only to those first fruits:

Matthew 18:18 "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

 

[Lehigh3]

who says,
Yes the dots have to be connected. Like in chess, you can't move until you "see" the right move.
Jesus was the greater David. But God's temple was assigned to Solomon bc David was a "man of war" (see 1Chr.28).

The temple building (the type in the OT) was sown in "peace" through Solomon.

The anti-type fulfilment in the NT is our salvation in Christ & His peace, So the lion of Judah (Christ) was only effective for the judgment. The father of the unbelievers was Satan, & Satan represented sin & death in Adam. Christ atoned for this "sin"
We are with the commonwealth of Israel in God's eyes. Spiritual Israel, that is, & not from the synagogue of Satan.(sin & death=the law)