Was education in the Middle Ages sparse? (Church History)

[Catholic Crusader]

...but neither is human administration of that a heirarchy always perfect either....

Unless the Holy Spirit steps in. Lets not forget Him. He stepped in when they canonized the New Testament, and did a bang-up job. He steps in when he needs to, wouldn't you think? I mean, if God was going to hold ANYONE infallible for a couple of seconds so he could say the right thing to the flock, who would it be?

 

[cyberjosh]

I mean, if God was going to hold ANYONE infallible for a couple of seconds so he could say the right thing to the flock, who would it be?

The obedient one? The one that says like Isaiah, "Here I am. Send me!". The one who listens to God when he speaks, and who longs for His Word. And the one who, like the psalmist, delights in God's Word.

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I mean, if God was going to hold ANYONE infallible for a couple of seconds so he could say the right thing to the flock, who would it be?

The obedient one? The one that says like Isaiah, "Here I am. Send me!". The one who listens to God when he speaks, and who longs for His Word. And the one who, like the psalmist, delights in God's Word.

~Josh

Or how about, the one to whom the promise was made:

Luke 22: 31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you (plural in greek) like wheat; but I have prayed for you (singular), that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

 

[cyberjosh]

[quote="Catholic Crusader":a010a]I mean, if God was going to hold ANYONE infallible for a couple of seconds so he could say the right thing to the flock, who would it be?

The obedient one? The one that says like Isaiah, "Here I am. Send me!". The one who listens to God when he speaks, and who longs for His Word. And the one who, like the psalmist, delights in God's Word.

~Josh

Or how about, the one to whom the promise was made:

Luke 22: 31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you (plural in greek) like wheat; but I have prayed for you (singular), that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." [/quote:a010a]

You are killing the passion of what I said. What? You never get excited that God can use you? Or do we just defer all the important stuff off to an abstract concept of "the Church"?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Or how about, the one to whom the promise was made:
Luke 22: 31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you (plural in greek) like wheat; but I have prayed for you (singular), that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

You are killing the passion of what I said. What? You never get excited that God can use you? Or do we just defer all the important stuff off to an abstract concept of "the Church"?

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I was talking in the context of doctrine.

OH NO!!! God has used me before! And Thats why I love people like Mother Theresa: She teaches in a very profound way, by DEEDS and not WORDS. Im sure he's used you too, and Billy Graham - who KNOWS who he has used and how

 

[cyberjosh]

Good to hear.

Well, I'm out for a while. I have a horrible night class which lasts till 9:30PM coming up. :-? I feel sleep deprivation coming on this summer semester...

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, but neither is human administration of that a heirarchy always perfect either. If Wycliffe wants to say that personal confession is not necessary (allowing it as voluntary) since the priest cannot absolve sins, then he has Biblical grounds.

Anyone can invent some theology and find "biblical grounds", Josh. That is why Christ left the heirarchy as the last point of authority. God has placed people in authority over us. If you choose not to follow that authority, what can I say? I suppose Christianity has devolved into thousands of individuals "popes" on your side of the world...

I don't find Biblical grounds for that.

I'll be leaving for awhile, so I won't be responding for at least a week.

Joe

 

[Veritas]

Actually, that is found in the earliest Christian writings. It is not my interpretation. I live by the ancient ways. It isnt until the 16th century that we find a denial of apostolic succession:

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I meant to emphasize the personal element in accepting the interpretations of the Catholic Church and making it your own.

But I do appreciate the quotes you've offered. From other things I've read of the Church Fathers, I think all those men were pointing back to Christ.

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Makes sense. I think the Scriptures could probably be used too.

Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

I think Scripture can be used to rule out bizzare interpretations. Gnosticism is even directly contradicted in the books of John.

(quoted J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant) Thus on the basis of experience the Fathers could be "profoundly convinced of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture. The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field"

See, I think the twisting is unreasonable and that much ground can be covered with reason. Of course I agree there is the Holy Spirit as well working through the individual and the Christian community to keep the Truth.


....But maybe we should be getting back to the education bit. :D Anyone know who Kreeft is? He's written some interesting things regarding this.

 

[Veritas]

Okay Josh, I found some interesting resources on the education in the Middle Ages:

Here are some books that may cover that written by a respected historian named Christopher Dawson (1889-1970):

Understanding Europe,
Religion and the Rise of Western Culture,
Religion and Culture,
Medieval Essays, (particularly the essay - The Scientific Development of Medieval Culture)
Progress and Religion
Dynamics of World History

I also found this bit at http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _jan07.asp

Dawson notes--in Medieval Essays that:

This wholesale condemnation of medieval culture has long since been abandoned by the educated world, and it was the rediscovery of the purely cultural values of the Middle Ages--of medieval literature and medieval art--which was the main factor in bringing about the change, and which contributed very materially to the wider appreciation of the value of medieval religion. [6]

And yet Grayling and others are able to be so unremittingly negative about the history of Christianity in general and the medieval era in particular because there remains, for various reasons, a huge chasm between scholarly research and popular knowledge. As Grayling's column indicates (and as he even tacitly admits), appealing to popular prejudices and longstanding stereotypes about the "dark ages" is often a successful polemical tactic. This is discussed at length by Régine Pernoud, a French medievalist, in her book Those Terrible Middle Ages! Debunking the Myths (first published in French in 1977), who summarizes part of the problem in this way:

The Middle Ages still signifies: a period of ignorance, mindlessness, or generalized underdevelopment, even if this the only period of underdevelopment during which cathedrals were built! That is because the scholarly research done for the past fifty years and more has not yet, as a whole, reached the public at large. ... It is so easy, in fact, to manipulate history consciously or unconsciously, for a public that is not knowledgeable about it ... The Middle Ages is privileged material: one can say what one wants about it with the quasi-certainty of never being contradicted. [7]

Sociologist Rodney Stark, professor at Baylor University, goes even further in his recently published book, The Victory of Reason:

For the past two or three centuries, every educated person has known that from the fall of Rome until about the fifteenth century Europe was submerged in the "Dark Ages"--centuries of ignorance, superstition, and misery--from which it was suddenly, almost miraculously rescued, first by the Renaissance and then by the Enlightenment. But it didn't happen that way. Instead, during the so-called Dark Ages, European technology and science overtook and surpassed the rest of the world! [8]

Stark describes the "Dark Ages" narrative as "a hoax originated by antireligious, and bitterly anti-Catholic (anti-Christian), eighteenth-century intellectuals who were determined to assert the culturally superiority of their own times and who boosted their claim by denigrating previous centuries ..." He goes on to provide a provocative and well-documented summary of the many scientific, technical, economic, and artistic innovations and advances of the medieval era, ranging from water-powered mills to chimneys to the harnessing of horses. [9]

Which is not to suggest that the history of Christianity from the fourth century until the twelfth century was one of steady and unhampered progress and success. Not at all. As Dawson and other historians readily point out, there were difficult, even dark, moments throughout, including the fall of Rome, disease and famine, various assaults by barbarians and, later, by Muslims. Nor is it to deny that there have been Christian despots, corrupt clergy, and lax laity. ....

....Some of those books seem very interesting to me

 

[cyberjosh]

Interesting, thanks Veritas! I'm so interested in Church history that I'm thinking of going to seminary (a Divinity School - if God leads me there) and when I get there take as much Church History as I can. The Middle ages especially interest me.

Thanks again.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Veritas]

Glad to be of some help! I'm waiting for Joe (francisdesales) to get back because I suspect he probably has some really good resources to look at as well.

....for some reason I've been getting really interested in history too.... although I'll probably just stick to reading books.