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Bible Study Was Jesus A Man Before the Incarnation?

Atonement

Atonement

Member
I do not think that Jesus was a man before the incarnation. The incarnation was all about Jesus becoming human, which is the same as becoming a man.
Some believe that Jesus always had a glorified body and left Heaven to be born of the virgin birth and to reunite with his earthly body. What do you think?
 
The same here Gabby, but does that mean Christ always had a body? For the OT and NT tell us God is a spirit and that we are to worship Him in Spirit and truth.. So I'm at a lost end (sorta speak)..
 
Thread subject

Hi guys,

Jesus was the firstborn over all creation, Col.1:15, in confirmation of Pr.8:22-36 when God brought him forth as the first of His works, before the world began, the craftsman at His side, the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus.

Until He was incarnated by the Holy spirit in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, and Heb.10:5, He was spirit. After which He became the man/God Jesus from heaven, as in Jn.1:14. See also Jn.17:5.

Blessings,

Quasar
 
Jesus was the Eternal Son of God before His incarnation. Hebrews 1, and John 3:16
Jesus was the Word of God before His incarnation. John 1
Jesus was God befor His incarnation. John 1

The Word became flesh, Immanuel, God with Us.

The Lord bless all of you.
 
Hi atonement,

I would say that Christ, being God, was a Spirit (John 4:24) that became flesh. (2 Corinthians 3:17) Christ, the specific person in the Trinity, as the Son of God is the Word (John 1:1), the messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1) The Lord bless you.
 
lovely said:
Hi atonement,

I would say that Christ, being God, was a Spirit (John 4:24) that became flesh. (2 Corinthians 3:17) Christ, the specific person in the Trinity, as the Son of God is the Word (John 1:1), the messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1) The Lord bless you.
Click to expand...

As the Jews hold that the Spirit of Messiah was created and hidden by God, I would say that the physical body of Messiah wasn't created until the conception...This also is in agreement with Christ as the Memra (John 1:1).

Here are the thoughts on Messianic pre-existence.....from the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on pre-existence.

Preexistence of the Messiah:


This includes his existence before Creation; the existence of his name; his existence after the creation of the world. Two Biblical passages favor the view of the preexistence of the Messiah: Micah v. 1 (A. V. 2), speaking of the Bethlehemite ruler, says that his "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting"; Dan. vii. 13 speaks of "one like the Son of man," who "came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days." In the Messianic similitudes of Enoch (xxxvii.-lxxi.) the three preexistences are spoken of: "The Messiah was chosen of God before the creation of the world, and he shall be before Him to eternity" (xlviii. 6). Before the sun and the signs of the zodiac were created, or ever the stars of heaven were formed his name was uttered in the presence of the Lord of Spirits (= God; xlviii. 3). Apart from these passages, there are only general statements that the Messiah was hidden and preserved by God (lxii. 6-7, xlvi. 1-3), without any declaration as to when he began to be. His preexistence is affirmed also in II Esdras (about 90 C.E.), according to which he has been preserved and hidden by God "a great season"; nor shall mankind see him save at the hour of his appointed day (xii. 32; xiii. 26, 52; xiv. 9), although no mention is made of the antemundane existence either of his person or of his name (comp. Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 3).

Thus also the Rabbis. Of the seven things fashioned before the creation of the world, the last was the name of the Messiah (comp. Ps. lxxii. 17; Pes. 54a; Tan., Naso, ed. Buber, No. 19; and parallels); and the Targum regards the preexistence of the Messiah's name as implied in Micah v. 1 (A. V. 2), Zech. iv. 7, and Ps. lxxii. 17.

The "Spirit of God" which "moved upon the face of the waters" (Gen. i. 2) is the spirit of the Messiah (Gen. R. viii. 1; comp. Pesiḳ. R. 152b, which reads as follows, alluding to Isa. xi. 2: "The Messiah was born [created] when the world was made, although his existence had been contemplated before the Creation"). Referring to Ps. xxxvi. 10 and Gen. i. 4, Pesiḳta Rabba declares (161b): "God beheld the Messiah and his deeds before the Creation, but He hid him and his generation under His throne of glory." Seeing him, Satan said, "That is the Messiah who will dethrone me." God said to the Messiah, "Ephraim, anointed of My righteousness, thou hast taken upon thee the sufferings of the six days of Creation" (162a; comp. Yalḳ., Isa. 499). The preexistence of the Messiah in heaven and his high station there are often mentioned. Akiba interprets Dan. vii. 9 as referring to two heavenly thronesâ€â€the one occupied by God and the other by the Messiah (Ḥag. 14a; comp. Enoch, lv. 4, lxix. 29), with whom God converses (Pes. 118b; Suk. 52a).
Abode in Heaven.


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... %20messiah

another good article on the preexistence of Messiah from Hebraic liturature...

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=Messiah
 
Hi George,

I am afraid we will have to continue on in disagreement concerning this particular point.

George wrote:
This also is in agreement with Christ as the Memra (John 1:1).
Click to expand...

I'm sure that you knew that, though. :wink:

I pray the Lord bless you today, George.
 
lovely said:
Hi George,

I am afraid we will have to continue on in disagreement concerning this particular point.

Yeh...your're probably right, who would know better than the collective minds of Judaism (at least 3500 years worth) concerning the thing they look forward to the most....I'm beginning to see it your way, I'm begining to think the best minds of gentile Christianity (who have no clue concerning anything in Judaism) have it figured out.

Sure...they do.... :-D

George wrote:
This also is in agreement with Christ as the Memra (John 1:1).
Click to expand...

I'm sure that you knew that, though. :wink:

Hey...there's always hope the light bulb will shine.... :smt005

I pray the Lord bless you today, George.

Bakacha...... :smt058
Click to expand...

Hey....did ya read the paste on pre-existence? It didn't give you pause to think?
 
lovely said:
Hi atonement,

I would say that Christ, being God, was a Spirit (John 4:24) that became flesh. (2 Corinthians 3:17) Christ, the specific person in the Trinity, as the Son of God is the Word (John 1:1), the messenger of the covenant (Malachi 3:1) The Lord bless you.
Click to expand...

I would say this is perfect and says it all.
 
Re: Thread subject

Quasar said:
Hi guys,

Jesus was the firstborn over all creation, Col.1:15, in confirmation of Pr.8:22-36 when God brought him forth as the first of His works, before the world began, the craftsman at His side, the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus.

Until He was incarnated by the Holy spirit in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, and Heb.10:5, He was spirit. After which He became the man/God Jesus from heaven, as in Jn.1:14. See also Jn.17:5.

Blessings,

Quasar
Click to expand...

This is insinuating that Jesus was created and he was not.
Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.

(col 1:15) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

OR ( Col 1:18 ) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God. See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28

But Paul seems to say that Christ was only a creature, the fisrt Born (created) in the universe..

How do we answer this? The above two references show how Cults take single verses out of contex and make a case for what they beleive.

Now lets take a look at the scripture in contex and see what it really says.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

The New King James Version. 1982 (Col 1:15-18). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The answer to this riddle is simple.

Paul clearly declares Christ to be God in this very letter by saying he ''created all things'' (verse 1:16 one of the vesses they leave out) and has ''the fullness of the Godhead'' (see verse col 2:9 where Paul also affirms the deity of CHrist) the referance to ''first born'' does not mean he is the referance to fisrt born in creation, but the first born over creation (vese 15), since '' he is before all things'' ( verse 17) '' First'' born in this contex does not mean the first one to be born, but the heir of all, the creator and owner of ''all things''

Bottom line is he could not have been a created thing.



A simple rule of thumb or hermenutics is to remember that first pauls epistles are letters and should be read as letters and that none of the original scriptures have verse numbers or chapters. They were not there.

Its important to grab the complete thought.
My 2 cents worth.
Javier
 
Thread subject

Hi guys,

Quote by Georges:

>>>As the Jews hold that the Spirit of Messiah was created and hidden by God, I would say that the physical body of Messiah wasn't created until the conception...This also is in agreement with Christ as the Memra (John 1:1).<<<


Q: We're completely on the same page and I compliment you on the Jewish info you shared with us. Yes, our Bibles as well as the Jewish Tanakh share the same insight to the origins of the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus in the Proverbs of Solomon, found in 8:22-36, where through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the WHO OF THE WISDOM OF GOD APPEARS, as clearly revealed in 1 Cor.1:24 and in Col.2:2-3.

Pr.8:22-25 [NIV] states the following: "The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans I WAS GIVEN BIRTH, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH," [And much more, through vs 36]. In vs 30, "THEN I WAS THE CRAFTSMAN AT HIS SIDE. In complete harmony with Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION." As well as with Jn.1:1-3.

The KJV renders Pr.8:22 as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED ME in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." The term possessed/possessor in that passage has the same meaning as it does in Gen.14:19 and 22, where it means CREATED. Which is exactly how it is rendered in the NIV.


Quote by Jgredline:

>>>This is insinuating that Jesus was created and he was not.
Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.<<<


Q: According to the above Scriptures, it is no insinuation, is it! Don't start attacking with your mouth and ending up with egg on face or shooting yourself in the foot!

The pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus DID NOT BECOME GOD, until He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, fulfilling the propheciew of God, in Ps.2:7, 45:6-7 and Isa.7:14, repeated again after fulfillment in Heb.1:5, 8-9.

If as all trinitarians believe, if the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus received His deity when God Created it, it would break the Scriptures in Isa.43:10 and 44:6, as well as the previously quoted prophecies.

From Pr.8:22-36, it is abundantly clear there are two [Spirits] persons involved, not just one as trinitarians assume the case is with the Father and the Son. The latter did not exist as the Son of God/God the Son until He was incarnated in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

Nor is the presumption Jesus is co-eternal with the Father, as the Scriptures clearly reveal. As for the term used by Paul in the Scriptures as quoted by Jgredline:

>>>The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God. See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28<<<


Q: There is no argument as to Jesus being eternal, from the moment He was born. [God provided His Spirit a body, as in Heb.10:5 - a unique one of a kind for all of history]. Once we have been created [born], we too are eternal beings, as in Ecc.12:7; 2 Cor.5:6-8; Phil.1:21-23; 1 Pet.3:18-20 or Mk.9:48. Prior to that, His spirit was the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, as spelled out above.

Listen carefully: My Scriptural posts do not question the Deity of Jesus Christ for one nano second. Your problem with it is the fact that His Spirit was created and failing to recognize when He received His deity, from the Holy Spirit, by the virgin Mary, as prophecied in the Scriptures, as in Isa.7:14.

The message here is to read your Bible and forget what you have heard from the teachings that come from the minds of man.

Blessings,

Quasar
 
Thread subject

Hi guys,

Quote by Georges:

>>>As the Jews hold that the Spirit of Messiah was created and hidden by God, I would say that the physical body of Messiah wasn't created until the conception...This also is in agreement with Christ as the Memra (John 1:1).<<<


Q: We're completely on the same page and I compliment you on the Jewish info you shared with us. Yes, our Bibles as well as the Jewish Tanakh share the same insight to the origins of the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus in the Proverbs of Solomon, found in 8:22-36, where through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the WHO OF THE WISDOM OF GOD APPEARS, as clearly revealed in 1 Cor.1:24 and in Col.2:2-3.

Would you let me use what you have posted on other Christian web sites I post on for their edification as well? I would sure appreciate it.

Pr.8:22-25 [NIV] states the following: "The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans I WAS GIVEN BIRTH, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I WAS GIVEN BIRTH," [And much more, through vs 36]. In vs 30, "THEN I WAS THE CRAFTSMAN AT HIS SIDE. In complete harmony with Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION." As well as with Jn.1:1-3.

The KJV renders Pr.8:22 as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED ME in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." The term possessed/possessor in that passage has the same meaning as it does in Gen.14:19 and 22, where it means CREATED. Which is exactly how it is rendered in the NIV.


Quote by Jgredline:

>>>This is insinuating that Jesus was created and he was not.
Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.<<<


Q: According to the above Scriptures, it is no insinuation, is it! Don't start attacking with your mouth and ending up with egg on face or shooting yourself in the foot!

The pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus DID NOT BECOME GOD, until He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, fulfilling the propheciew of God, in Ps.2:7, 45:6-7 and Isa.7:14, repeated again after fulfillment in Heb.1:5, 8-9.

If as all trinitarians believe, if the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus received His deity when God Created it, it would break the Scriptures in Isa.43:10 and 44:6, as well as the previously quoted prophecies.

From Pr.8:22-36, it is abundantly clear there are two [Spirits] persons involved, not just one as trinitarians assume the case is with the Father and the Son. The latter did not exist as the Son of God/God the Son until He was incarnated in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

Nor is the presumption Jesus is co-eternal with the Father, as the Scriptures clearly reveal. As for the term used by Paul in the Scriptures as quoted by Jgredline:

>>>The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God. See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28<<<


Q: There is no argument as to Jesus being eternal, from the moment He was born. [God provided His Spirit a body, as in Heb.10:5 - a unique one of a kind for all of history]. Once we have been created [born], we too are eternal beings, as in Ecc.12:7; 2 Cor.5:6-8; Phil.1:21-23; 1 Pet.3:18-20 or Mk.9:48. Prior to that, His spirit was the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, as spelled out above.

Listen carefully: My Scriptural posts do not question the Deity of Jesus Christ for one nano second. Your problem with it is the fact that His Spirit was created and failing to recognize when He received His deity, from the Holy Spirit, by the virgin Mary, as prophecied in the Scriptures, as in Isa.7:14.

The message here is to read your Bible and forget what you have heard from the teachings that come from the minds of man.

Blessings,

Quasar
 
Quasar
Do you believe that Jesus Christ was created in the same way God created an Angel?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Logos / the word ?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what your saying.
 
Thread subject

jgredline said:
Quasar
1. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was created in the same way God created an Angel?

2. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Logos / the word ?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what your saying.
Click to expand...


Q: 1. Yes, though the pre-incarnated Jesus was a spirit person, as angels are, it is my opinion he was never an angel. But rather, something higher as well as the very first of God's works, before the world began. See Jn.17:5.

The WHO OF THE WISDOM OF GOD makes that very clear in Pr.8:22-36, which trinitarians wriggle and squirm around, doing their very best in attempts to make something else out of that passage than what it is, to argue their point, rather than to seek the truth from the Scriptures. It seems they are yet slaves to the the minds of man instead.

2. Absolutely! Carefully reread what I posted and it should come to you loud and clear.

Blessings,

Quasar
 
Quasar
In response to proverbs 8:22-36 I am using the NKJV
fortunatly I saved my notes from another debate I had on this issue,
so I don't have to type it all over again.

8:22 His eternal generation: “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way.†Quasar do not understand the word “possessed†as implying that Christ ever had a beginning. God never existed without the quality or attribute of wisdom, and neither did He ever exist without the Person of His Son. The meaning here is exactly the same as in John 1:1: “In the beginning ... the Word was with God. ... â€Â
8:23 His appointment from eternity. “Established†means anointed or appointed. Long before creation took place, He was appointed to be the Messiah of Israel and the Savior of the world.
8:24–26 His pre-existence. The words “brought forth†must not be taken to mean that He was ever created and thus had a beginning. They are poetic language describing the Son’s eternal existence and His personality as being distinct from that of God the Father. OK Quasar, lets move on.
The primal dust refers to the beginnings of the world.
8:27–29 His presence at creation. He was there when the heavens were stretched over the land and sea, when clouds were formed, and fountains and springs began gushing forth. He was there when the boundaries of the oceans were decided upon, the waters being commanded not to pass beyond the limits set. He was there when the foundations of the earth were made, including the internal structure that supports the outer crust. If Jesus was created he would not have been their.
8:30a His activity in creation. Quasar, here we learn that the Lord Jesus was the active Agent in creation. The NKJV correctly renders the first part of verse 30, “Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman. ... †This agrees, of course, with John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; and Hebrews 1:2… Verses you seem to forget are there.
8:30b His position of affection and delight ... before God. The eternal and infinite love of the Father for His Son increases the marvel that He would ever send that Son to die for sinners.
8:30c His personal delight before God. This magnifies the grace of our Lord Jesus Christâ€â€that He would ever leave that scene of pure and perfect joy to come to this jungle of shame, sorrow, and suffering.
8:31 His rejoicing in the inhabited world. It is amazing that out of all the vast universe, He should be especially interested in this speck of a planet. Do you ever think about that. Are we the only ones here? According to the scriptures we are.
His special delight in the sons of men. The final wonder is that He should set His affection upon the rebel race of men.
8:32–36 This final paragraph sets forth the eternal issues involved in man’s response to Wisdom’s call. It pronounces a blessing on those who listen to her instruction, walking in her ways. It promises happiness to those who wait daily at her gates, who keep faithful vigil at her doors. It holds out life and divine favor to those who find her, but personal loss and death to those who miss her.
Apply these last two verses to Christ. Whoever finds Him receives eternal life and stands in full favor with God (see John 8:51; 17:3; Eph. 1:6; 1 John 5:12). But those who miss Him injure themselves, and those who hate Him love death (cf. John 3:36b).
 
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