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jgredline said:
Quasar
In regards to the proverb you quoted, here is more exposition.
8:22–31 This section of ch. 8 describes wisdom’s role in creation. The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way: The Hebrew verb for possessed can mean “brought forth†or “created.†Melchizedek used the same word to identify God as creator of the universe (Gen. 14:19). We both agree on this so far correct ? God, who is ever wise, produced wisdom; God, who possesses all knowledge, brought forth knowledge. So far we still agree correct ?
Wisdom had a beginning only in the sense that God singled it out for special display at that time; insofar as it is one of God’s perfections, it has always existed Look at v. 23. These verses provide part of the background for the NT portrayal of Christ as the divine Word (John 1:1–3) I know you and georges try and explain this away by saying there is no definate article in the greek, but if you keep reading the Gospel of John, you will see that it is there, just keep reading to (V14)and as the wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24, 30; Col. 2:3).
I am sure you are disagreeing with me here and thats ok, because I know I am right on this. tELL you what. Lets take a look at John1:14 (LOOK IT UP) i WILL only exposit on it. Ok, time for those Greek classes to pay off.
1:14 The Word (Gk. logos) who was (continuous existence, definate article) God (1:1) became (point action; Gk. ginomai) flesh (Gk. sarx) (1:14). Verse 1 speaks of Christ’s nature and works being outside of space and time, before creation. Quasar, with me so far. OK Verse 14 presents the irruption of Jesus Christ into time and space, even the history of humankind. The Son of God who was from all eternity, at a point in time, took humanity to deity (look up Phil. 2:5–9). God became human with limitations in time and space. Jesus Christ uniquely and thoroughly identified with us as both God and man. He was fully God and yet He became fully human (He did not have sin but then sin is not part of the nature of humanity, but is an intruder). Since nothing of the essential nature of deity was lost in this event, we might better understand “became†to mean “took to Himself†flesh. John uses the word flesh for the physical nature of persons, not for the sinful disposition. This is important to understand and grasp. (unlike the apostle Paul; Rom. 8:1–11). God the Son will forever exist as a man with a resurrected body (Acts 1:11; compare 1 John 4:2, 3). God dwelt among us, that is, among the apostles. Dwelt comes from the Greek word for tent. It was used in the Greek OT for the tabernacle where the presence of God dwelt. In the OT, glory refers to the divine presence (Ex. 33:18). As God manifested His glory in the tabernacle, so Jesus displayed His divine presence before the apostles (18:6; 20:26, 27). Only begotten (3:16, 18) means unique, one of a kind. The same term is used of Isaac (Heb 11:17), who was not the only physical son of Abraham, but was the unique son of promise. All who trust Christ are born of God. In the Gospel of John, these “born ones†are called children of God (vv. 12, 13), but Jesus Christ is the unique Son of God. He is the only Son who is fully God. He is also full of grace and truth. When God revealed Himself to Moses, He proclaimed Himself to be “abounding in goodness and truth†(Ex. 34:6). As applied to Jesus Christ, this phrase marks Him as the author of perfect redemption and perfect revelation. I will have more to say on this, but truthfully, I am getting tired and need to look at Prov 8 a little more. Quasar. You do understand that the book of Proverbs is poetic same a psalms, but we can't appreciate it because they were written in Hebrew. I have a CD of the proverbs and Psalms in hebrew and are just awsome to hear them sung. Anyway, lets move on with this bible study. Q, you are making me think.
Prov 8:30, 31 OK, the term master craftsman speaks of an artisan or of a darling child. Wisdom is both. With wisdom’s skill, God created the universe. A proper study of the universe is a progressive discovery of God’s wisdom (Rom. 1:20). delight: In her playful, childlike exuberance, Wisdom is a darling child. And her greatest joy comes in the finest of the work of Godâ€â€the sons of menâ€â€that is, humankind. I am sure you disagree with this also and that ok, because I am right on this. By the way, Wisdom in not female. I hope we can atleast agree on this. What say you?
Jg
Greetings JGredline,
Q: First of all, you keep alluding to Col.1:16 you apparently think makes Jesus God from all eternity. The Scriptures reveal, in Pr.8:30, the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus was the craftsman at God's side during the creation. Your trinitarian approach would break the Scriptures by the very Word of God and His own prophecies, making what He said a lie, which we agree, He cannot do!
1. The proof that the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus, who was APPOINTED FROM ETERNITY, AND GIVEN BIRTH, [OR POSSESSED], by the Spirit of God, was indeed the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, as in Col.1:15. Which means, he cannot be co-eternal with God. If he was, then Isa.43:10 and 44:6 would be a conflict and a lie. It is clear, there are two Spirit beings in Pr.8:22-36, not just one.
2. That the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus did not become either Jesus, or the Son of God until He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit, as in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, as well as God the Son, as in Ps.2:7, 45:6-7 and in Isa.7:14. And when those prophecies were fulfilled, they were all repeated in Heb.1:5, 8-9. If the trinitarian claim that the Father and the Son are co-eternal, those prophecies would all be in error and lies.
3. as most all trinitarians, which I had been myself for 45 years, you are still trying to make something out of Pr.8:22-36 that it isn't. That Jesus is the WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE AND POWER OF GOD, is exactly what that passage of Scripture describes and is thoroughly endorsed by the following highly esteemed theologians who are all trintarian, but confirm the fact that Pr.8:22-36 is the pre-incarnated WHO OF THE WISDOM OF GOD:
A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.
B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.
C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.
D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.
E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.
F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.
G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.
H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.
I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible.
j. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D., Chairman of the above Editorial Committee of the 1967 Scofield Bible.
The Following is an annotation from the Scofield Bible:
"That wisdom is more than the personification of an attribute of God, or of the will of God as best for man, but is a distinct forshadowing of Christ, is certain. Pr.8:22-36, with Jn.1:1-3, 1 Cor.1:24; Col.2:3, can refer to no one less than but the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus."
4. The Greek term, Logos, as found in the Bible Dictionary:
"A philosophical and theological term and concept that goes back tp the Ionian philosopher Heracletus [c 500 B.C.], to whom it meant the universal reason permeating the world and finding all self consciousness in the mind of the philosophers. Stoicism adopted the term for a dynamic principal of reason operating in the world and FORMING A MEDIUM OF COMMUNION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN." [As in 1 Tim.2:5].
"The latter function became prominent in Philo, with whom the Logos is at once the Stoics active, intelligent, world-principle, the thought in the divine mind, which was identical with sum-total of Plato's "forms" or "ideas," and a mediator between God and the matter of His creation. For Philo, as indeed his predecessors, the Logos, is neither personal or impersonal. It is vaguely equated with God's utterance [Gen.1:3; Ps.33:9], His word in such passages as Ps.107:20; 147:15, 18, and such expressions as "the angel of the covenant," AND WITH WISDOM IN SUCH PERSONIFICATIONS AS THOSE IN PR.8 and wisdom of Solomon 9:15ff."
"In the New Testament the Logos appears principally in John's writings [Jn.1:1ff; 1 Jn.1:1; Rev.19:13], though references from Paul's writings and the epistle to the Hebrews might be added. Logos is imperfectly translated "Word," and is not easy to comprehend the full context of the idea in its Judeo-Hellenistic context., etc., etc."
5. No, JG, the Son of God IS NOT from "all eternity," but rather, the spirit of the PRE-INCARNATED JESUS WAS BROUGHT FORTH FROM ETERNITY. Not from all eternity as the Spirit of God is. He is not co-eternal because the Spirit of God had to "bring him forth." I have already covered this subject above with supporting statements from God as well as the prophecies proving to the contrary. As I have repeatedly written, Jesus, the Son of God, God the Son, DID NOT EXIST UNTIL Mt.1:20, 23, and Lk.1:35. See also Heb.10:5.
6. Much of what you claim, as to Proverbs being poetry and about the 'craftsman at His side,' is completely non-Scriptural JG. You will have to support how you can verify your allegations pertaining to Pr.8:22-36, with Scripture to validate it.
The fact of the matter is, the only primary argument here is to WHEN JESUS CAME INTO EXISTENCE AND WHEN HE BECAME JESUS, THE SON OF GOD AS WELL AS GOD THE SON. Outside of that there is little else to discuss, is there.
Blessings,
Quasar
