Was "the Fire" of Hell a Metaphor?

[Mike]

I'm curious if members believe that hell is a place of literal torture of fire for eternity or if this was a metaphor. I've always interpreted this to be a metaphor; that the fire of hell was used for our purposes. It was for us to try to comprehend a place of torment so bad, that we would be in perpetual, endless torture. This torture wouldn't be literal endless fire, but simply living eternity completely separated from the Lord. This would be so inconceivably bad, the metaphor of fire needed to be used to draw a line for us to this horrible condition. And those who rejected Christ would spend eternity knowing that they were offered eternity in the presence of the Lord, but by their own choice, will be completely separated from His Love.

Thoughts?

 

[Mysteryman]

I'm curious if members believe that hell is a place of literal torture of fire for eternity or if this was a metaphor. I've always interpreted this to be a metaphor; that the fire of hell was used for our purposes. It was for us to try to comprehend a place of torment so bad, that we would be in perpetual, endless torture. This torture wouldn't be literal endless fire, but simply living eternity completely separated from the Lord. This would be so inconceivably bad, the metaphor of fire needed to be used to draw a line for us to this horrible condition. And those who rejected Christ would spend eternity knowing that they were offered eternity in the presence of the Lord, but by their own choice, will be completely separated from His Love.

Thoughts?

Hi Mike

Yes, it is a meaphor, and not a liteal lake of fire. This is more of a place of a type of mental suffering, instead of literal suffering. An example is given pertaining to thirst, and no one to give him a cup of water to quench his thirst.

 

[Adullam]

The lake of fire is a literal place. A person who is thrown therein dies. God can kill both the body AND soul whereas men can only kill the body.

This destiny is often confused with the wandering in outer darkness. Those sent into darkness have been rejected by the Lord.

These are 2 separate fates that await the wicked (fire) and the unjust (darkness). A thorough study of the bible will confirm this viewpoint!

 

[jasoncran]

literal, funny if the fires of hell is a metaphor in that parable of lazarus, then our very reward in heaven must be a literary device as well.

 

[Pard]

It's very literal! It's a very, very real place, just as Heaven is. And just like the bliss in Heaven, the pain and torture in Hell is eternal.

Hell is more than "fire and brimstone", though. The is merely a scare tactic, but it is not scary enough to begin to describe Hell, for Hell is deeper than any abyss, and Hell is darker than any dark, and Hell is hotter than any hot, and Hell is more painful than any pain conceived on earth.

People claim that Hell cannot be dark, on fire, endless, a lake, full of torture, ect. ect. I find fault with their logic on this. You see, they claim it cannot be literal because ti cannot be all these things at once, like dark and on fire... They simple doubt the awesome power of the creator of all things. In my findings, those who doubt the literalness of Hell tend to doubt the Trinity and other ideas that they simply cannot fathom because they cannot appreciate just HOW awesome our Lord Elohim is!

But He is that awesome, and He is that powerful. He is the Creator and I bet His punishment is as real and eternal and terrible as all else that we see He created. Elohim does not do anything half-ways. He does everything to completion. Look at a rock, is it not infinitely detailed? Our Lord is complete in all things, and so will His punishment be complete in its terribleness.

:amen

 

[jasoncran]

who says that the fire isnt the h.s itself and there are chemicals that do burn things(caustic) that dont need oxygen to cause damage.

 

[Pard]

who says that the fire isnt the h.s itself and there are chemicals that do burn things(caustic) that dont need oxygen to cause damage.

That is my point. When people decide Hell cannot be literal simply because they see contradictions based upon their limited and human way of thinking, it is equal to that of doubting God.

 

[Mike]

Pard, you're painting with a broad brush. You can't say people who don't see a fiery hell as literal do so because they can't see darkness with fire. And this has nothing to do with conceptualizing the Trinity. I believe hell is absolute darkness; the absence of all light, the light being God. I'm a Trinitarian through and through, but I do believe hell to be an eternal existence in complete absence of God. This is a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth, but not a place of fire literally IMO. I'd be repeating my OP if I went on about the picture of literal fire.

I believe no fire or pain can be worse than being completely separated from the Lord. Absolute depravity of soul. No hope, no joy, no peace... All the while, knowing that God showed Himself to them, but they refused to accept Him. Eternity of misery and regret.

 

[Pard]

Pard, you're painting with a broad brush. You can't say people who don't see a fiery hell as literal do so because they can't see darkness with fire. And this has nothing to do with conceptualizing the Trinity. I believe hell is absolute darkness; the absence of all light, the light being God. I'm a Trinitarian through and through, but I do believe hell to be an eternal existence in complete absence of God. This is a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth, but not a place of fire literally IMO. I'd be repeating my OP if I went on about the picture of literal fire.

I believe no fire or pain can be worse than being completely separated from the Lord. Absolute depravity of soul. No hope, no joy, no peace... All the while, knowing that God showed Himself to them, but they refused to accept Him. Eternity of misery and regret.

Sorry if I made that to broad. I was not referring to all people who see Hell as a metaphor, people who doubt because they cannot fathom it's existence.

I do agree with you, to a point. The darkness of Hell is a life without God, but Hell is not only the absence of God. Those who go to Hell already know the absence of God, that is not punishment enough for them. It is enough for you or I, but not those without God on earth.

 

[Mike]

Those who go to Hell already know the absence of God, that is not punishment enough for them. It is enough for you or I, but not those without God on earth.

Hmm... I don't think so. In fact, I'd say I'm pretty certain that no one on earth knows what it's like to live completely apart from God. Whether they acknowledge or believe it, God is in their lives and sustains them. The person farthest away from God here on earth is still living among Him and His creation. Living in the sheer and complete absence of Him is unfathomable. I don't think it's within our vocabulary or capability to express how horrifying a place that is completely void of God would be.

 

[l'Chante]

;)
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/7_Jo ... GgodGWhXjw

Why is it that everyone always sees John Lennon in Hell? Why doesn't anybody ever see Hitler, Stalin or Idi Amin?

 

[ORwarriOR]

;)
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/7_Jo ... GgodGWhXjw

Why is it that everyone always sees John Lennon in Hell? Why doesn't anybody ever see Hitler, Stalin or Idi Amin?

The luke passage referenced there is a huge common misconception; it's completely different from the lake of fire described in the rest of the bible because the greek word Jesus used is Hades (not Gehenna: the lake of fire). Hades is the abode of the dead directly after death. All people go to hades after they die, it's essentially the grave. Revelation 20:14 states that death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Lazerus was also in hades not in heaven since hades is thrown into the lake of fire as the righteous move on to the new Jerusalem. This theory is solidified because Jesus told the sinner on the cross "today you shall be with me in paradise" much like lazerus was; That sinner wasn't going to heaven that day, he was going to hades although to be rewarded not punished. Jesus also spent time (3 days) in hades, but I don't think he suffered the flames do you?

Also that translation says 'tortures" in hades but the greek word it's translated from is torment; torment meant to refine with fire.

That article says there is no sort of limbo or purgatory, but if the dead are punished directly after death in hades, why wouldn't that serve some sort of purpose to purity their sins and give them some sort of second chance if they were ultimately just going to be thrown into the lake of fire to be punished even more?

 

[jasoncran]

torment those in hell day and night before the father and his holy angels simply means purification of the lost that refused him?

really?

 

[veteran]

It's correct we should not confuse the "lake of fire" with the heavenly abode of the wicked called hell (hades). OrwarriorOr is correct that hell and death both go into the "lake of fire" after Christ's thousand years reign (Rev.20:14-15). That's showing the "lake of fire" as a one time event of destruction.

With Paradise, I believe that is a place in the heavenly for the dead, but with hades as only one part of it. I see hades or the pit or abyss more like a prison in the heavenly realm. The Greek word 'tartaroo' Peter used for the deepest part of the abyss makes me think of different levels of confinement in that prison, like solitaire confinement. Our Lord did use the idea of Satan and his angels being locked up in prison with chains (Rev.20:7; Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4).

 

[Mike]

We had an interesting topic on Hell being permanent or temporary a while ago, but it's buried deep in the pack now. I was going to say that if you want to question whether hell is temporary or eternal, you could jump over there, but it's been dead for a while. The person who claims that souls are snuffed out has a lot to contend with in Scripture as I said in the Eternal thread that's active here,

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=49593#p600595

I just want to make one thing clear about my understanding of Scripture as it applies to hell, because I don't want any confusion. I DO believe in the place of hell and that it IS eternal in that souls are left there in separation from God completely. What I don't believe is that of literal "fire". I believe this to be a metaphor. Not that literalists are saying it's either one or the other, but I'll just say if I had to choose between being burned in fire for eternity and being completely void of the presence of God, I'd take the fire - or any other kind of torture. Just give me the Lord, and He will give me endurance. My point here is that nothing is as bad as total separation from the Lord. :verysad :verysad :verysad

 

[ORwarriOR]

It's correct we should not confuse the "lake of fire" with the heavenly abode of the wicked called hell (hades). OrwarriorOr is correct that hell and death both go into the "lake of fire" after Christ's thousand years reign (Rev.20:14-15). That's showing the "lake of fire" as a one time event of destruction.

With Paradise, I believe that is a place in the heavenly for the dead, but with hades as only one part of it. I see hades or the pit or abyss more like a prison in the heavenly realm. The Greek word 'tartaroo' Peter used for the deepest part of the abyss makes me think of different levels of confinement in that prison, like solitaire confinement. Our Lord did use the idea of Satan and his angels being locked up in prison with chains (Rev.20:7; Jude 1:6; 2 Peter 2:4).

Eh it all lines up though. Tartaroo in greek mythology was the lowest level of hades (still part of hades though and not a seperate location from hades), the only torturous level of hades, where zeus confined the worst of the worst so to speak. Hades also had elysium fields which was more or less the paradise of hades. My pastor told me I shouldn't use greek mythology to try and explain to bible, but why would Jesus use it as a reference and then not explain the differences rather than just creating a new name for a completely different concept.

 

[mandywalsworth]

In my opinion. I see it as it will just be all of the people who goes to hell's greed and selfishness that they showed on earth let loose and they will be causing their own pain in a non stop cycle of selfish hurtful events
and it will be worse because now they can't do anything to redeem themselves because they lost their chance and if you think about it that really does sound like incomprehensible pain and suffering
cuz on earth since we have the holy spirit most of the time it keeps us from doing the bad cruel things humans sometimes do
and the holy spirit won't be in hell so they won't have that restraint on them no longer
and in the end they will be the creators of the hell they live in. I just pray that it won't be anyone I love who ends up there. :verysad

 

[Elijah674]

literal, funny if the fires of hell is a metaphor in that parable of lazarus, then our very reward in heaven must be a literary device as well.

You did identify it correctly as a [PARABLE] above Jason. But here is how 'i' see it.
So NO, when from Gen. to Rev. is read by me, for me it is only man's pen or their testimony or the Eternal God/Christ's ETERNAL WORDS! And this is why I see Matt. 4:4's REQUIRED DOCUMENTED Spiritual diet + 2 Tim. 3:16-17 [WORD OF GOD] NEEDED to understand 'hell' & [any other DOCTRINE!]

And the Holy penmen used their own description by words in their 'TESTIMONY', yet, note the Spirits Words of 1 Cor. 14:32! '.. the SPIRITS of the prophets ARE SUBJECT TO THE PROPHETS.'!
Then the doctrine of an Eternal Burning 'hell'? It REQUIRES [ALL THE INSPIRATION] given, to understand it, at least if one is not yet Born Again! For NO BORN AGAIN person could believe that the LOVING Godhead could have one burn eternally?! But note Christ's WORDS of Luke 16:31 about the carnal one who .. 'And He said unto him, If they [hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be PERSUADED, though one rose from the dead.' (and Christ did!)
The VERY ONES OF Rev. 17:1-5! I realize what one has always heard! but even read Matt. 10:15 for Christ's OWN speech in telling us that old Lost Israel when they rejected the message from the 12 (Matt. 10:5-6) that they would be JUDGED by far the worse than even Sodom and Gomorrah in the final day of Judgement!

In Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20 DOCUMENTING that the Soul that sinneth, [IT SHALL DIE]'.

The Obadiah 1:16 verse says:

[16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. (these had been saved at one time even, it is stated! Read on! Not OSAS! see Heb. 6:6)

The DAY OF THE LORD cannot be twisted out of context by satan! The JUDGEMENT cannot be 'missed' either, by satan! (Eccl. 12:12-14) And the extra 'exposed' VERY FALSE truth of O.S.A.S finds that these ones had 'DRUNK UPON MY HOLY MOUNTAIN'! FACT!! (see Heb. 6:1-6! & 2 Peter 2:19-22 + the [TWICE DEAD] ONES OF JUDE 1:12! To be twice dead, they had to be Born Again at one time!

OK! Now to be AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN?? Think about these ones.. NEVER.. NEVER! NO NEVER EVER TO BE ALIVE AGAIN, BUT TO BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER EVER BEEN FOR ALL OF FUTURE ETERNITY!! That is what an hot hell is all about. They are GONE for the rest of ETERNITY!

And this time it is the whole of the earth & it is also 'Inspired to say the Godheads STRANGE ACT!' Isa. 28:2122!

David explained Christ's Truth on this is several O.T. places. In Psalms 37:9-10 he penned that the 'evil doers [SHALL BE CUT OFF'] .. For yet a little while, and [THE WICKED SHALL NOT BE]: yea, thou shalt [diligently] consider his place, [AND IT SHALL NOT BE]. 'Again David penned.. 'DESTROYED FOREVER'!! Psalms 92:7

And again.. 'Let the sinners beCONSUMED OUT OF THE EARTH, AND THE WICKED BE NO MORE.'!!! It seems that Obad. & David both were 'Led' by the Holy Spirits Inspired Words, huh? ;)

And the UPRIGHT JOB'S Inspired Pen!!
Job 20
[4] Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,

[5] That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?

[6] Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds;

[7] Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?

[8] He shall fly away as a dream, and shall not be found: yea, he shall be chased away as a vision of the night.

[9] The eye also which saw him shall see him no more; neither shall his place any more behold him.'

And these ones teaching that God lied & satan told the truth are making their own free choice!

So where are they? David told us that he learned what their fate was by going into the Lord's Sanctuary. Compare Psalm 77:13 with Psalm 73:2-17. But in bottom line, we see Malachi 4:1-3 giving us the Word of God's Inspiration.
Mal.4
[1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (who can not know when this time/frame is??)

[2] But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

[3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (just as Job, David, Christ, Obadiah and Malachi were all in agreement on + many that 'i' have not given from the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost! compare 1 Cor. 14:32)

[4] Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

And these three verses? Christ stated flat out above in Luke 16:31 that 'these ones' would not be persuaded though one rose from the dead! And this is just [one] of many of satans false doctrines that are being taught by these ones of Rev. 17:1-5.

--Elijah

 

[warhorse]

I'm curious if members believe that hell is a place of literal torture of fire for eternity or if this was a metaphor. I've always interpreted this to be a metaphor; that the fire of hell was used for our purposes. It was for us to try to comprehend a place of torment so bad, that we would be in perpetual, endless torture. This torture wouldn't be literal endless fire, but simply living eternity completely separated from the Lord. This would be so inconceivably bad, the metaphor of fire needed to be used to draw a line for us to this horrible condition. And those who rejected Christ would spend eternity knowing that they were offered eternity in the presence of the Lord, but by their own choice, will be completely separated from His Love.

Thoughts?

Well do you think the nails and thorns were metephorical, or do you think they were real.

 

[Mike]

Well do you think the nails and thorns were metephorical, or do you think they were real.

Warhorse, others have tried to extrapolate my point to other beliefs, and we were able to come to an understanding that because I don't see "fire" being literal, doesn't mean that I see countless other things as figurative as well. So to answer you question, no I don't believe the nails and thorns were metaphorical. Perhaps you didn't read through the whole thread to glean this before posting your response.

Saying there is no "fire" but a complete absence of the Presence of God is in NO WAY minimizing the horrific existence in hell.