Was the Trinity included in Jesus’ gospel?

[John Zain]

Truly, I don't want all of you poor guys to have heart attacks.
And, truly, I'd like for you poor guys to be able to sleep at night.

So, why don't you re-read Post #1, paying special attention to the green?

 

[Jake]

Truly, I don't want all of you poor guys to have heart attacks.
And, truly, I'd like for you poor guys to be able to sleep at night.

So, why don't you re-read Post #1, paying special attention to the green?

I've heard many, many lame doctrinal claims, but this one is the lamest by far. 2

The Bible points to the Trinity, so what if Jesus didn't specifically speak of it to the multitudes. I really don't understand your point, especially if you believe in the Trinity. What is your point?

 

[John Zain]

I've heard many, many lame doctrinal claims, but this one is the lamest by far. 2
The Bible points to the Trinity, so what if Jesus didn't specifically speak of it to the multitudes. I really don't understand your point, especially if you believe in the Trinity. What is your point?

Okay, good, we're finally makin' some headway here.
PTL ... Rockie is awake, his brain is functioning, etc.
This lame doctrinal claim is to prepare you for when somebody says:
"I don't see Jesus talking about any Trinity when He's preaching to people."

 

[Jake]

Okay, good, we're finally makin' some headway here.
PTL ... Rockie is awake, his brain is functioning, etc.
This lame doctrinal claim is prepare you for when somebody says:
"I don't see Jesus talking about any Trinity when He's preaching to people."

Who is going to ask that?

 

[Mike]

Who is going to ask that?

I don't know if this was meant to be funny or you're just exhausted over the premise of this thread, but I'm dyin' here! :toofunny

 

[Jake]

I don't know if this was meant to be funny or you're just exhausted over the premise of this thread, but I'm dyin' here! :toofunny

lol, I am more perplexed than anything, I thought the answer was going to be one of the most enlightening things I had ever heard, like a fireworks grand finale, and then....... still perplexed. lol

 

[Elijah674]

My bottom line(s) here:
The Trinity was NEVER a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes
(mostly on the lush green hills and mountainsides in da Holy Land).
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

OK: What I have said is that you are missing the [Eternal Gospel] in your postings! Got that? That 'simple Gospel' of Matt. 4:4 + 2 Tim. 3:16 along with Isa. 28:8-10 COMPLETE WORD OF THE WORD OF CHRIST GOD's DOCUMENTATION.

And the 'multitude' were given parables, so what good would this DOCTRINE do these ones? Mark 4:33-34 & 'see' verse 10-12.

And you post up.. 'often needs'?? But not always huh? Which way is it then?

It seem's to me that all you are doing is casting doubt or are trying to look smart? (those are question marks! Cannot know)

--Elijah

 

[John Zain]

My bottom line(s) here:
The Trinity was NEVER a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes
(mostly on the lush green hills and mountainsides in da Holy Land).
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

And you post up.. 'often needs'?? But not always huh? Which way is it then?

Okay, I'll post it again ... the first posting was in Post #1, which no one seems to comprehend.
So, you may take consolation in ... youse ain't alone!

Oh, what fun this is ... Both "often needs" and "not always" apply.
Repeating Post #1, very often people believe in Trinity just because they were "born" into it.
Razbeerishlee sega? ... Do you understand now?

 

[Jake]

There isn't anything in the OP that I do not understand and I simply do not believe the Trinity because "I was born into it", I believe because there are so many scriptures pointing to the fact.

Which is the problem with your point, Jesus told us HOW to be saved, there were more important issues He needed to address, than spend His time on the Trinity, in which, He really does spend quit a bit of time on the Trinity throughout the written Word.

So you present a meaningless and trivial piece of information and you expect us to jump up and down from this "newly discovered" lack of information in Jesus' teachings. All the while, with a condescending attitude to everyone who was trying to figure out what you were trying to say!

I have never, not once, been presented with the argument the Trinity doesn't exist because Jesus didn't preach it to the multitudes and I highly doubt it will ever present itself (except for this most ridiculous thread, that is).

 

[teddy trueblood]

Who is going to ask that?

I will state that not only did Jesus not claim (privately or publicly) to be God nor part of a trinity, but those who knew him also did not believe it.

The Jews rounded up some false witnesses to make up lies to obtain a death sentence for Jesus. Not even one of these made a claim that he was God or equally God.

John summed up his whole Gospel by saying that it was written that we may believe "that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." There is no mention in that summary of the entire Gospel of what would be the most important thing of all - that Jesus is God!

Jesus taught in synagogues and the temple. This would never happen if any of the authorities believed he claimed to be God (or that his followers believed such a thing).

After Jesus' death and for the remainder of that first century (at least), Jesus' followers taught in Jewish synagogues. Again, this would not have been allowed if there were any suspicion that they believed Jesus to be God.

There is no clear, undisputed scripture plainly stating that Jesus is God. This should be just as important as telling us hundreds of times in clear, undisputed scriptures that the Father is God.

I would like to share my challenges to the trinity by stating 6 or 7 simple questions concerning what should be found in scripture if Jesus were truly God. However, I'm not sure if that would be allowed on this thread.

 

[Jake]

I will state that not only did Jesus not claim (privately or publicly) to be God nor part of a trinity, but those who knew him also did not believe it.

The Jews rounded up some false witnesses to make up lies to obtain a death sentence for Jesus. Not even one of these made a claim that he was God or equally God.

John summed up his whole Gospel by saying that it was written that we may believe "that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." There is no mention in that summary of the entire Gospel of what would be the most important thing of all - that Jesus is God!

Jesus taught in synagogues and the temple. This would never happen if any of the authorities believed he claimed to be God (or that his followers believed such a thing).

After Jesus' death and for the remainder of that first century (at least), Jesus' followers taught in Jewish synagogues. Again, this would not have been allowed if there were any suspicion that they believed Jesus to be God.

There is no clear, undisputed scripture plainly stating that Jesus is God. This should be just as important as telling us hundreds of times in clear, undisputed scriptures that the Father is God.

I would like to share my challenges to the trinity by stating 6 or 7 simple questions concerning what should be found in scripture if Jesus were truly God. However, I'm not sure if that would be allowed on this thread.

Hi Teddy,
There are several references in the NT that points directly to Jesus being God, the point of why they were so angry with Him, because He did claim diety. Taking the entire council of the Word, shows exactly who Jesus was and He was God!
Ask away, if your questions are not acceptable, they will tell you.
Welcome to the forum! :waving

 

[Jake]

Teddy,
There is another thread in apologetics called "the #1 problem in Christian Theology" - that's a trinity thread, too, and they are actively debating it.

 

[teddy trueblood]

Thank you, Rockie, for the information and for the welcome.

You wrote, "There are several references in the NT that points directly to Jesus being God."

Will you give me the scriptures that point directly to Jesus being God? I believe if we carefully examine such scriptures, we will find they are not clear, undisputed statements of of Jesus being God.

I don't believe there are any statements as clear as John 17:1, 3. "Father.... this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - NIV.

Thanks again for the information about the Number One Problem in Theology. I'll give it a look.

Sincerely,
Ted

 

[Jake]

Thank you, Rockie, for the information and for the welcome.

You wrote, "There are several references in the NT that points directly to Jesus being God."

Will you give me the scriptures that point directly to Jesus being God? I believe if we carefully examine such scriptures, we will find they are not clear, undisputed statements of of Jesus being God.

I don't believe there are any statements as clear as John 17:1, 3. "Father.... this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - NIV.

Thanks again for the information about the Number One Problem in Theology. I'll give it a look.

Sincerely,
Ted

Col 2:9

 

[John Zain]

Thank you, Rockie, for the information and for the welcome.
Rocky wrote, "There are several references in the NT that points directly to Jesus being God."
Will you give me the scriptures that point directly to Jesus being God? I believe if we carefully examine such scriptures, we will find they are not clear, undisputed statements of of Jesus being God.

Yes, welcome, Teddy ...

I am sure that this whole deal is directly connected with the fact that
the Son of God in human flesh chose to speak mostly in parables.

Keeping this fact in mind, there are 70+ verses which point to the following claims:
Jesus is God, is equal to Father God, is the Creator, is the Sustainer now,
is the Giver of eternal life, etc.
If you would like the references, I can easily provide them.

 

[th1b.taylor]

In the past 21+ years I have butted heads with quite a few Oneness believer/teachers. The over all view I have continually received from them is the lack of using the complete Bible meaning that they draw on particular portions and simply ignore the rest and seem to refuse to study Jewish Customs of the period.

As mentioned there are several instances in the Gospels of the New Testament that couple with the Gospel of Isaiah to substantiate that the Christ, Jesus, was God and is God. My particular favorite of all is John 1:1-3. We all know that God spoke the Heavens and the Earth into existence and we all know and this passage confirms that nothing was created that was not created by Jesus, that would include every word of the Bible, His revelation of Himself to us.

God bless and I pray this does not become some silly girlish argument but will remain an intelligent conversation.

 

[Free]

Thank you, Rockie, for the information and for the welcome.

You wrote, "There are several references in the NT that points directly to Jesus being God."

Will you give me the scriptures that point directly to Jesus being God? I believe if we carefully examine such scriptures, we will find they are not clear, undisputed statements of of Jesus being God.

I don't believe there are any statements as clear as John 17:1, 3. "Father.... this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - NIV.

With the same logic, I believe if we carefully examine scriptures which appear to say that Jesus isn't God, we will find they are not clear, undisputed statements of Jesus not being God.

 

[Jake]

It's all very clear throughout scripture Jesus was God, if we didn't catch it in Genesis and then missed it again in Isaiah, I would say John pretty much sums it up.

 

[teddy trueblood]

Rockie, you gave Col. 2:9 as an example of a clear, undisputed statement showing Jesus to be God. (I’d hoped someone would have also addressed the points concerning Jesus’ false witnesses, John’s summation of his entire Gospel, Jewish Temple and synagogues made in message #31 above)

This is an excellent example of Trinitarian ‘evidence’ versus clear, undisputed oft-repeated statements such as “Jesus is Christ,†“Jesus is the Son of God,†“God the Father†(but never “God the Sonâ€), “Father, …. The only true God,†“Mary, the mother of Jesus†(but never “the mother of Godâ€).

There are problems in equating this scripture with Jesus being God. Some of these problems concern the words translated “divinity/deity/Godhead†(theotes) and “fullness†(pleroma).

A clear statement of Jesus being God would be (oddly enough) “He is God.†Some form of this clear statement should be repeated over and over throughout the NT since it would certainly be new, essential information for the people of the Bible and necessary for future Christians (John 17:3; 2 Thess. 1:8-9). The following is from a personal study of mine - please excuse the emphasis on emphasis J. (Actually I cut back on some of the original bolding, underlining, etc. in this excerpt.)

………………….

The trinitarian argument that Col. 2:9 proves that Jesus is God overlooks the common understanding of "fulness of ..." and "filled with ..." by those who used those common phrases in New Testament times. For example, the person who became "filled with Holy Spirit" (Eph. 5:18) was greatly influenced by that spirit, but he certainly did not become the Holy Spirit.

And having "the fulness" of someone or something could similarly mean being greatly influenced by that person or thing. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says:



"Just as a person can be full of pain, joy, love, and virtue, he can also be said to be filled with God ..., i.e. possessed and inspired by God." - Vol. 1, p. 734.

Surely we wouldn’t expect anyone who is "filled with" God or who receives the "fulness of" God to actually be God! Nor would we expect anyone who has the "fulness of" Christ to actually be Christ! In fact it clearly shows that he is not the person or thing with which he is "filled"!

So, when we read Eph. 1:22,23 - "the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" - we do not think that all true Christians are actually Christ. The New Oxford Annotated Bible (1977) tells us in a footnote for this scripture:

"the Church, as the fulness of Christ, is the complement of his mystic [figurative] person; he is the head, the Church is his body."

Popular trinitarian NT Greek scholar, W. E. Vine, explains:

"Fill, Fill Up": "... (a) of the members of the Church, the Body of Christ, as filled by Him", Eph. 1:23 (‘all things in all the members’); ... in 3:19, of their being filled ... ‘with’ all the fulness of God….." - p. 426, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

Yes, at Eph. 3:19 we actually see Paul expressing the thought "that you [Ephesian Christians] may be filled with all the fulness of God" - RSV. And at Eph. 4:13 we find - "until we all attain ... to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" - RSV.

Even the trinitarian reference work, the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, commenting about the word "fullness" at Col. 2:9 ("In his [Jesus’] body lives the fullness of divinity" - JB), tells us:

"this fullness which is described in Col. 1:15-18 is entirely related to Christ’s cross (v. 20), death (v. 22), and resurrection (v. 18). For this reason believers also have this fullness in him (2:10)." - Vol. 1, p. 740, Zondervan, 1986. - See AT, CBW, NAB (especially 1991 ed.).

"Outside the NT the word occurs in Ignatius in a sense which is clearly influenced by the NT, and apparently in the meaning of the Divine fulness, as going forth and blessing and residing ["dwelling"] in the Church [the congregation]" - p. 1, Vol. 4, A Dictionary of the Bible, James Hastings, ed., Hendrickson Publ., 1988.

For exactly the same reasons that we don’t allow such figurative language to persuade us that all true Christians actually are (or may become) God or Christ, we should not let it persuade us that Christ is actually God!

The Bible tells us how essential to eternal life it is to know God and Jesus (John 17:3 and 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). Therefore, if one "knows" Jesus as God and "knows" God as three (or two) persons and such "knowledge" turns out to be false, then he is certainly not on the road to eternal life!

And as we saw above, if Christians can be "filled with" God and receive the "fulness of" God, we know by this very wording that they are not God! And we know that those Christians who had the "fulness of" Christ could not actually be Christ! The very wording itself shows that someone else is "filling" (or influencing) the person who is being "filled" (influenced). In fact it clearly shows that he cannot be the person (or thing) with whom he is "filled"!

Therefore, those Christians who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of God are not God! Those Christians who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of Christ are not Christ! Those men and women who are "filled with" or have the "fulness" of the Holy Spirit are not the Holy Spirit!! And even if we interpret Col. 2:9 as meaning that Christ has the fullness of "Godhood" in him, it still cannot mean Christ is God!!

Is there truly a clear statement of Jesus being God in scripture?

 

[Pizzaguy]

And even if we interpret Col. 2:9 as meaning that Christ has the fullness of "Godhood" in him, it still cannot mean Christ is God!!

I have read your post twice, I still have no idea how you came to this conclusion.

It IS true that a believer who has the indwelling Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit, but that itself DOES NOT mean that Christ is not God.

Is there truly a clear statement of Jesus being God in scripture?

The old and new Testament carry the theme of Christ being God thru out the entire book. Read John 14.