[_ Old Earth _] Was There any Death Before the Fall

[Drew]

In several other threads, I have tried without success to elicit a reasonable defence for the assertion that no organisms died before the fall. Any answers I have received have been demonstrably incorrect and my repeated questions for further defence have gone unanswered. So I will start a thread.

My understanding is that some Christians assert that one of the reasons that evolution contradicts the Scriptures is that the Scriptures clearly state that death did not exist before the fall. Now we have to be clear at this point. I understand that the proponent of such a position is claiming that no death of any kind at all occurred before the fall (no living matter of any kind experienced death). In fact, the claim that nothing at all died before the fall is key to this aspect of the anti-evolution argument, since this allows the anti-evolution advocate to rule out a process of natural selection leading to the appearance of man.

My questions (for the present) are two:

1. What did Adam and Eve eat prior to the fall and how can such eating not necessarily involve the death of either vegetable or animal organisms?

2. How do you reconcile this "no death before the fall" view with the contents of Genesis 1:30: "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundâ€â€everything that has the breath of life in itâ€â€I give every green plant for food."

 

[Khristeeanos]

In several other threads, I have tried without success to elicit a reasonable defence for the assertion that no organisms died before the fall. Any answers I have received have been demonstrably incorrect and my repeated questions for further defence have gone unanswered. So I will start a thread.

My understanding is that some Christians assert that one of the reasons that evolution contradicts the Scriptures is that the Scriptures clearly state that death did not exist before the fall. Now we have to be clear at this point. I understand that the proponent of such a position is claiming that no death of any kind at all occurred before the fall (no living matter of any kind experienced death). In fact, the claim that nothing at all died before the fall is key to this aspect of the anti-evolution argument, since this allows the anti-evolution advocate to rule out a process of natural selection leading to the appearance of man.

My questions (for the present) are two:

1. What did Adam and Eve eat prior to the fall and how can such eating not necessarily involve the death of either vegetable or animal organisms?

2. How do you reconcile this "no death before the fall" view with the contents of Genesis 1:30: "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundâ€â€everything that has the breath of life in itâ€â€I give every green plant for food."

The Bible says:

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinnedâ€â€

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

The Bible is so clear that there was no death before Adam's sin that trying to debate it is just a waste of time, IMO.

Trying to get us caught by talking about plants is just not going to work.

The Bible could not be any more clear that no humans or animals died before the fall of mankind!!!

 

[reznwerks]

[

The Bible could not be any more clear that no humans or animals died before the fall of mankind!!!

That wasn't really the whole question. The original question included plants as living things and not being subject to death.The only way I can resolve this dilema is to eat nothing but fruits and nuts which only consumes the offshoots of the living plant. Now you can argue that fruits nut and seed could eventually be living things but then we could get into the argument of abortion etc. which I don't have time for. Getting back to the question of no death before the fall and no humans died before it. If I recall correctly no humans were alive before the fall except Adam and Eve at least according to the bible.

 

[peace4all]

but it doesnt matter, because animals were alive, that would be eating plants regardless if adam and eve did not.

unless of course, Plants don't count as living things.

 

[noblej6]

Hi forum,

Besides that isn't the 'death' being talked about. The death in these verses is the after-physical life 'death.' After physical death there was no spiritual or heavenly 'life' because of sin.

There was never a promise to have mankind live on planet earth forever, the promise was to live a physical life and then die and begin living the eternal heavenly life. That is what Adam lost for us and what Jesus regained for us.

God told Adam and Eve to multiply. God would know that the habitat available for mankind could not sustain mankind if there wasn't death to control populations.

noble6

 

[cubedbee]

The death that came through Adam was clearly spiritual, not physical. God said that the on the day Adam ate from the tree he would die. What God says happens, so the death God was talking about happened that day. However, Adam's physical death happened hundreds of years later. So, God could not have been talking about physical death, or else God is a liar. It's as simple as that--Scripture could not be more clear.

 

[Drew]

The death that came through Adam was clearly spiritual, not physical. God said that the on the day Adam ate from the tree he would die. What God says happens, so the death God was talking about happened that day. However, Adam's physical death happened hundreds of years later. So, God could not have been talking about physical death, or else God is a liar. It's as simple as that--Scripture could not be more clear.

I agree, but I suspect that you know what I am trying to do. I am trying to get the "no physical death before the fall" people to come clean and either defend their position coherently or have the stones to withdraw a non-viable claim.

 

[Drew]

The Bible says:

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinnedâ€â€

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

The Bible is so clear that there was no death before Adam's sin that trying to debate it is just a waste of time, IMO.

Trying to get us caught by talking about plants is just not going to work.

The Bible could not be any more clear that no humans or animals died before the fall of mankind!!!

Bonsai, you are quite simply not answering the questions I posed. Please actually answer the questions or at least admit that you are accepting a position that is not workable (for the reasons implied by the content of the questions).

 

[ArtGuy]

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

I think this provides the key, right here. The Bible speaks of the resurrection of man, and of making all men alive. I think it's safe to say that this doesn't mean that all the corpses of all the men in history are just going to pop out of the ground and resume their affairs. It means that all men will be spiritually resurrected to assume their rightful places in heaven. If the resurrection is of a spiritual nature, then it's not implausible to suppose that the death was also of a spiritual nature.

 

[Drew]

Over 70 views and not a single person willing to defend the "no physical death before the fall" position by answering a couple of questions.

This speaks clearly to the untenability of this position.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Over 70 views and not a single person willing to defend the "no physical death before the fall" position by answering a couple of questions.

This speaks clearly to the untenability of this position.

What?

You are kidding, right? :-?


I showed how the "no death before sin" was talking about physical and spiritual death.

Just because our English versions say "you will die" that doesn't mean just death.

All of the Hebrew sources I know of agree that the word for "die" means "dying you will die."

In other words, you will die today (spiritually) and the process of physical death will begin as well.

 

[ArtGuy]

I showed how the "no death before sin" was talking about physical and spiritual death.

Unless there's some post up there that is invisible to the rest of us, no you didn't. You posted a few passages that referred to death. You then asserted that this clearly meant "spiritual death", because HEY LOOK OVER THERE A MONKEY! I then responded to one of your passages, mentioning how it actually seemed to bolster the case for the death being a spiritual one.

All of the Hebrew sources I know of agree that the word for "die" means "dying you will die."

In other words, you will die today (spiritually) and the process of physical death will begin as well.

Care to mention some of these sources? Reputable scholars of ancient Hebrew will be preferable.

 

[Khristeeanos]

I showed how the "no death before sin" was talking about physical and spiritual death.

Unless there's some post up there that is invisible to the rest of us, no you didn't. You posted a few passages that referred to death. You then asserted that this clearly meant "spiritual death", because HEY LOOK OVER THERE A MONKEY! I then responded to one of your passages, mentioning how it actually seemed to bolster the case for the death being a spiritual one.

All of the Hebrew sources I know of agree that the word for "die" means "dying you will die."

In other words, you will die today (spiritually) and the process of physical death will begin as well.

Care to mention some of these sources? Reputable scholars of ancient Hebrew will be preferable.

Is it really that difficult to understand? :-?


I mean, if you hand a Bible to any person who doesn't have a bias one way or the other and ask them to tell you what it teaches, you will almost always get the same answer:


The earth was created some thousands of years ago, there was no death before man's sin.



It really is that simple.

 

[dad]

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

I think this provides the key, right here. The Bible speaks of the resurrection of man, and of making all men alive. I think it's safe to say that this doesn't mean that all the corpses of all the men in history are just going to pop out of the ground and resume their affairs. It means that all men will be spiritually resurrected to assume their rightful places in heaven. If the resurrection is of a spiritual nature, then it's not implausible to suppose that the death was also of a spiritual nature.

I disagree. Why bother ressurecting Jesus if it's all some spiritual thing? Why come back with Jesus, and have our physical bodies ressurected? There is a reason. The world to come, and the new heavens are both spiritual and physical! We would not really be complete just being a spook!

 

[Drew]

The earth was created some thousands of years ago, there was no death before man's sin.

If it is so simple, why is it that you have not answered the questions in the OP? This is not rocket science. If your position is correct, you will have answers to the 2 questions in the OP.

 

[dad]

The death that came through Adam was clearly spiritual, not physical. God said that the on the day Adam ate from the tree he would die. What God says happens, so the death God was talking about happened that day. However, Adam's physical death happened hundreds of years later. So, God could not have been talking about physical death, or else God is a liar. It's as simple as that--Scripture could not be more clear.

I agree, but I suspect that you know what I am trying to do. I am trying to get the "no physical death before the fall" people to come clean and either defend their position coherently or have the stones to withdraw a non-viable claim.

My opinion is that in the garden, where I think all the creatures, and man were, there was no death, even for most plants. I think that it is ridiculous to consider eating plants, and the fruit of trees, as murder! The tree lives on, we just eat the fruit.
I think Adam was designed to live forever, and would have, actually, still will!!!!! Outside the garden, however, I do not know that it was the same, and many creatures I think were made to live there, that maybe were not immortal. I see a difference in the Eden plants and creatures, and those made for the planet at large, perhaps to help get it ready for us.

 

[Drew]

My opinion is that in the garden, where I think all the creatures, and man were, there was no death, even for most plants. I think that it is ridiculous to consider eating plants, and the fruit of trees, as murder! The tree lives on, we just eat the fruit.
I think Adam was designed to live forever, and would have, actually, still will!!!!! Outside the garden, however, I do not know that it was the same, and many creatures I think were made to live there, that maybe were not immortal. I see a difference in the Eden plants and creatures, and those made for the planet at large, perhaps to help get it ready for us.

Greetings dad:

Your answer is at least a real argument, e.g. when you assert that eating the fruit of some plant does not involve death. This is at least an attempt to engage one of my questions. Here are the 2 questions again:

1. What did Adam and Eve eat prior to the fall and how can such eating not necessarily involve the death of either vegetable or animal organisms?

2. How do you reconcile this "no death before the fall" view with the contents of Genesis 1:30: "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundâ€â€everything that has the breath of life in itâ€â€I give every green plant for food."

Your answer addresses my first question and cannot be dismissed outright because it does seem reasonable to argue that a fruit bearing plant "lives on" even if its fruit is consumed.

However, you still face the challenge of question 2. The Genesis 1:30 text does not limit the food supply to "fruits of plants". Instead, every green plant is given to the animals for food. It would seem to be very hard to argue that your "eating the fruit does not kill the plant" argument applies to all kinds of plants (e.g. a blade of grass is a green plant that we know is eaten by animals - how is the blade of glass not "killed" in the eating?).

Remember, it is not me who claims that no death of any kind occurred in the world before the fall. So be careful whose view you challenge with statements like "I think that it is ridiculous to consider eating plants, and the fruit of trees, as murder!" It is the opponent of evolution, not me (a believer in evolution), who argues against evolution using the argument that "no death before the fall" rules out the death of any simple organisms that could have lead to higher forms.

You may be arguing against yourself here. To use the "no death before the fall" argument successfully against evolution, it has to apply to simple life forms such as plants. This is precisely how a YEC uses this doctrine in an attempt to argue against evolution.

 

[dad]

However, you still face the challenge of question 2. The Genesis 1:30 text does not limit the food supply to "fruits of plants". Instead, every green plant is given to the animals for food. It would seem to be very hard to argue that your "eating the fruit does not kill the plant" argument applies to all kinds of plants (e.g. a blade of grass is a green plant that we know is eaten by animals - how is the blade of glass not "killed" in the eating?).

I can't see being too exterme about that. In heaven the animals eat straw, or grass as well. The grass keeps growing, and being consumed is a part of it's cycle. I guess I would have to be of the opinion that the trees, and creatures will not die, not that plants won't be eaten and die.
Joh 12:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
If someone really wanted to stretch it, I suppose they could presume that grass in heaven will be such as that we could trim it, and eat it, but it will remain alive. Or onions will grow, so we can pick them, but the plant remains alive, etc! Unlike now.