[__ Prayer __] washed and made clean

[th1b.taylor]

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Not affiliated with Holiness movement , nor stating that I have not sinned for X number of years, nor denying any thing in Romans 3.

Then, like all of us, you are a Sinner, Forgiven.

 

[Edward]

I believe you are putting your feet on solid ground. I find that much of what is done, today as medical and psychological is what Jesus called witchcraft.

Uhhhhhhh, yes. I came across the word "medicine" in scripture and did a word study on it back into the original language and that's exactly how medicine is defined; "witchcraft"

That's a little discouraging to me in my spirit because I'm on two different kinds of "medicine" and they are important to me because I have to work, and I have to drive.

And they work.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think Bill Taylor is talking about psychology and psychiatry. I've found that a lot of the "professionals" in these fields are decidedly anti-Jesus, big on drugs and making $$$ and controlling people. Jesus, meanwhile, is all about setting us free from sin+bondage.

 

[AirDancer]

I refer to myself as a 'sinner' because I'm not perfect. I'm just not perfect.

Example? Just today, I was trying to put something together that wasn't cooperating. Frustrated, I said aloud "This is just stupid." Obviously, after I voiced that, I realized I should have prayed about the matter instead of giving in to the frustration. Yes, I'm human. And that means I'm not perfect, although I do try.

 

[Mike S]

Romans 7:15-20
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[AirDancer]

Romans 7:15-20
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So true....and that's what I rather thought about once I caught my behavior.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I refer to myself as a 'sinner' because I'm not perfect. I'm just not perfect.

Example? Just today, I was trying to put something together that wasn't cooperating. Frustrated, I said aloud "This is just stupid." Obviously, after I voiced that, I realized I should have prayed about the matter instead of giving in to the frustration. Yes, I'm human. And that means I'm not perfect, although I do try.

Shhhh! I'm guilty but don't tell, okay?

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

If we have died in Christ, have been created in him unto good works, and our citizenship is in heaven as a believer, then quote any scripture that states that God sees us as still sinners saved by grace and not saints?

 

[th1b.taylor]

dirtfarmer here

If we have died in Christ, have been created in him unto good works, and our citizenship is in heaven as a believer, then quote any scripture that states that God sees us as still sinners saved by grace and not saints?

I am sorry there is a veil over your eyes but what you are now asking is the same reasoning used by the Modalists to deny the Trinity. I have provided the scriptures that illustrate the truth and if you choose to believe the truth they illustrate, that is good but if you choose to disregard their teaching, the matter is then between you and God!

 

[dirtfarmer]

I am sorry there is a veil over your eyes but what you are now asking is the same reasoning used by the Modalists to deny the Trinity. I have provided the scriptures that illustrate the truth and if you choose to believe the truth they illustrate, that is good but if you choose to disregard their teaching, the matter is then between you and God!

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Does God hear your prayers?
John 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners, but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."
Hebrews 7:26 " For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens:"
Romans 5:8 " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Does God hear your prayers? If you are a sinner, according to John 9:31, God does not hear your prayers?
If we are alive in Christ, then we are separate from sinners. Therefore, we are saints according to God and have been delivered from the kingdom of darkness and have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. Colossians 1:13
In Romans 5:8 "we were yet sinners" is past tense. We still are overtaken by faults as a saint because we have not yet been delivered from the presence of sin, but that doesn't make us sinners. When God looks at the believer, he sees the blood of Christ and we as Christ's body covered by that blood, without sin.

I have never denied the Trinity. Don't know what a Modalists is.

 

[smaller]

I think Bill Taylor is talking about psychology and psychiatry. I've found that a lot of the "professionals" in these fields are decidedly anti-Jesus, big on drugs and making $$$ and controlling people. Jesus, meanwhile, is all about setting us free from sin+bondage.

It can be difficult and confusing sometimes.

It has been helpful for me, personally, to keep myself in the love of God, secured, eternally.

It has been likewise helpful to see the resistance to Gods Love that we all bear in our flesh as a matter, foreign in origin, to myself as Gods child. Romans 7:17 & 20-21.

It's problematic to depart from iniquity while still having same to contend with in the flesh. But disassociation to that working goes a very long ways toward walking peacefully within ourselves and with the world in general.

 

[GodsGrace]

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Does God hear your prayers?
John 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners, but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."
Hebrews 7:26 " For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens:"
Romans 5:8 " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Does God hear your prayers? If you are a sinner, according to John 9:31, God does not hear your prayers?
If we are alive in Christ, then we are separate from sinners. Therefore, we are saints according to God and have been delivered from the kingdom of darkness and have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. Colossians 1:13
In Romans 5:8 "we were yet sinners" is past tense. We still are overtaken by faults as a saint because we have not yet been delivered from the presence of sin, but that doesn't make us sinners. When God looks at the believer, he sees the blood of Christ and we as Christ's body covered by that blood, without sin.

I have never denied the Trinity. Don't know what a Modalists is.

Hi Dirtfarmer,
This reminded me that we were speaking about this on a thread and I forgot to answer you. Sorry about that.
You had said that once we were children of God, we could not undo the relationship,
I understand how those who believe as you do always bring up fellowship.
Let me ask you this:
If I believe in Jesus and am saved for many years, but then one day I decide, for whatever reason,
that I no longer want to follow Jesus and thus be a believer, am I still saved?
I no longer believe, I no longer want God in my life. My belief is that, at this point, I lose my salvation since
I am not trusting in the Lord to save me.

Wondering

 

[Mike S]

Shhhh! I'm guilty but don't tell, okay?

What's it worth to you for us to not rat you out?

 

[GodsGrace]

What's it worth to you for us to not rat you out?

§Count me in Mike.
I also didn't hear anything....

 

[th1b.taylor]

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Does God hear your prayers?
John 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners, but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."
Hebrews 7:26 " For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens:"
Romans 5:8 " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Does God hear your prayers? If you are a sinner, according to John 9:31, God does not hear your prayers?
If we are alive in Christ, then we are separate from sinners. Therefore, we are saints according to God and have been delivered from the kingdom of darkness and have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. Colossians 1:13
In Romans 5:8 "we were yet sinners" is past tense. We still are overtaken by faults as a saint because we have not yet been delivered from the presence of sin, but that doesn't make us sinners. When God looks at the believer, he sees the blood of Christ and we as Christ's body covered by that blood, without sin.

I have never denied the Trinity. Don't know what a Modalists is.

You are still lumping Forgiven Sinners with Unforgiven Sinners and there is no scripture for you to use for that. Between us, several have pointed you toward a collection of scriptures that when read in context prove neither you nor anyone in the Holiness Movement are without sin. You might have fooled yourself, just as those in the Holiness Movement have, but if you drive, you will accidentally break a Traffic Law, that is sinfull behavior. If you drive nails you will eventually strike your finger and rage at the hammer and/or yourself, that is sin. You are not without or soon will not be without Current Sin that is in need of repentance. To believe otherwise is to elevate yourself above what God has given us as absolute truth. Except you make a case proving the scriptures wrong, this conversation is over.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hi Dirtfarmer,
This reminded me that we were speaking about this on a thread and I forgot to answer you. Sorry about that.
You had said that once we were children of God, we could not undo the relationship,
I understand how those who believe as you do always bring up fellowship.
Let me ask you this:
If I believe in Jesus and am saved for many years, but then one day I decide, for whatever reason,
that I no longer want to follow Jesus and thus be a believer, am I still saved?
I no longer believe, I no longer want God in my life. My belief is that, at this point, I lose my salvation since
I am not trusting in the Lord to save me.

Wondering

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Galatians 2:20 " I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Is this Saul the Pharisee or Paul the apostle, the new creation in Christ Jesus? We never see Saul the Pharisee ever again after the Damascus road experience, why? Would it have been possible for Saul the Pharisee to begin to live again?

Romans 6:2 " God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein." Does anyone other than God have the power of resurrection? In order to have a sinful nature, we were born with it. It was not something acquired after we were born, so there is no scripture that states that we can re-acquire that nature after we are born again.

Think about this: If Christ paid our debt of sin, then the only sin that can consign us to the lake of fire is unbelief. Is there any scripture that states that those that are without Christ are judged by their many sins? Or, are they judged by the amount of light they have rejected?

 

[GodsGrace]

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

Galatians 2:20 " I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Is this Saul the Pharisee or Paul the apostle, the new creation in Christ Jesus? We never see Saul the Pharisee ever again after the Damascus road experience, why? Would it have been possible for Saul the Pharisee to begin to live again?

Romans 6:2 " God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein." Does anyone other than God have the power of resurrection? In order to have a sinful nature, we were born with it. It was not something acquired after we were born, so there is no scripture that states that we can re-acquire that nature after we are born again.

Think about this: If Christ paid our debt of sin, then the only sin that can consign us to the lake of fire is unbelief. Is there any scripture that states that those that are without Christ are judged by their many sins? Or, are they judged by the amount of light they have rejected?

Hi Dirtfarmer

We could continue until the moderator believes it is inappropriate.
in which case, I would request that it be moved to the Lounge.

I chose the Lounge because I don't want this to turn into a debate,. I'd like to understand better
how you arrive at your conclusion that security is eternal, not so much with bible verses since I'm sure we both know all of them - could we just use our common sense??

When reading both the O.T. and the N.T. I come away with the knowledge that my salvation is dependent on trusting in Jesus to save me since I cannot do it myself. Before Jesus all the people saved by faith in the O.T. were waiting for the resurrection in Abraham's bossom. Luke 16. At His death, all left A.'s B. (or Paradise) and went to heaven.

In our last discussion (to which I never replied - forgot!) you had brought up the concept of never being able to lose the title of son, even in the parent - child relationship.

As you must know, the New Covenant or New Testament is a Last Will and Testament by God Father. It was His last opportunity, given to us, to become children of God. A will becomes effective upon death - thus Jesus had to die, for this reason and to be the atonement for our sins.

So, really, we have nothing to do to be in the New Covenant except to choose to be in it. IF we are in it, we accept Jesus' sacrifice and we are born again from above. John 3.

If I wish to leave my parents, and fight with them, and hurt them, and they decide they can no longer live with me and banish me from my home and write me out of the will - I still am a child of theirs, but I get nothing when they die. So of what value is it to me to be a daughter of theirs?? I get nothing in the end. Just like a person who no longer believes would get nothing at the end of his life.

You bring up the sin of unbelief. This is the ONLY sin that cannot be forgiven. If I no longer believe and have faith, is that not the sin of unbelief? Have I not grieved the Holy Spirit? Mathew 12:31-32

I agree with you that it is highly improbable to leave the love of God once one has known it and also feels the beauty of knowing the Creator, however, I have seen this happen and we must make allowance for it.

So please answer to the question of the New Covenant and the grieving of the Holy Spirit if one leaves the faith he once knew.

Wondering

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hi Dirtfarmer

We could continue until the moderator believes it is inappropriate.
in which case, I would request that it be moved to the Lounge.

I chose the Lounge because I don't want this to turn into a debate,. I'd like to understand better
how you arrive at your conclusion that security is eternal, not so much with bible verses since I'm sure we both know all of them - could we just use our common sense??

When reading both the O.T. and the N.T. I come away with the knowledge that my salvation is dependent on trusting in Jesus to save me since I cannot do it myself. Before Jesus all the people saved by faith in the O.T. were waiting for the resurrection in Abraham's bossom. Luke 16. At His death, all left A.'s B. (or Paradise) and went to heaven.

In our last discussion (to which I never replied - forgot!) you had brought up the concept of never being able to lose the title of son, even in the parent - child relationship.

As you must know, the New Covenant or New Testament is a Last Will and Testament by God Father. It was His last opportunity, given to us, to become children of God. A will becomes effective upon death - thus Jesus had to die, for this reason and to be the atonement for our sins.

So, really, we have nothing to do to be in the New Covenant except to choose to be in it. IF we are in it, we accept Jesus' sacrifice and we are born again from above. John 3.

If I wish to leave my parents, and fight with them, and hurt them, and they decide they can no longer live with me and banish me from my home and write me out of the will - I still am a child of theirs, but I get nothing when they die. So of what value is it to me to be a daughter of theirs?? I get nothing in the end. Just like a person who no longer believes would get nothing at the end of his life.

You bring up the sin of unbelief. This is the ONLY sin that cannot be forgiven. If I no longer believe and have faith, is that not the sin of unbelief? Have I not grieved the Holy Spirit? Mathew 12:31-32

I agree with you that it is highly improbable to leave the love of God once one has known it and also feels the beauty of knowing the Creator, however, I have seen this happen and we must make allowance for it.

So please answer to the question of the New Covenant and the grieving of the Holy Spirit if one leaves the faith he once knew.

Wondering

hello wondering, dirtfarmer here

The analogy of salvation and being a child of God to that of an earthly family only is represented by once you are born into a family, you are always part of the family. The part of your having a fight with them could be similar if you understand that it is fellowship with your family that is in question not being part of the family.

Once in the family of God the things that you accomplish are either for the glory of God or self-glorification. In Corinthians we are told that we either build on the foundation of Christ gold, silver, and precious stones, or wood, hay, and stubble. If we only do those works that glorify our self we are told that those works will be burned, but we shall be saved so as by fire. If we are saved we want to glorify God, but there are times that we glorify ourselves and it is those works that are burned in the fire of judgment. The judgment by fire is not to determine our destination, but rewards. The believer has been judged with Christ on the cross and that judgment is applied to us by faith.

In John we are told that the work that is required by God is belief in what he has accomplished through Christ our savior; judging the sin of the whole world. The sin of unbelief is the unpardonable sin; but it is only if death finds you still in unbelief. I don't see any scripture that states or even indicates that once a person believes and become a believer that they can return to unbelief. I do find scripture that states that there are those that have the appearance of salvation but they are trusting in their works in addition to faith for salvation

There are scriptures that tells that we are kept by the power of God unto the day of restitution of all things. I know that my power is not greater than God's, so there is nothing that can separate me from the love of God. I know that I once was a sinner and still commit sins from time to time. We have received salvation from the power of sin, we have been saved form the penalty of sin, and in the time of restitution of all things I will receive salvation from the presence of sin.

the old testament saints were saved through faith, in a coming redeemer
the new testament saints are saved by faith, in the redeemer that has come.

I hope that I have answered your questions.
Thanks dirtfarmer