We are at the end, Iran and Israel war.

[Free]

I assume that you are getting those weak arguments, including the one below, from Islamic apologists. But that would be a grave error on your part. There is every reason to believe the gospel accounts over the Qur'an.

He has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book in truth, confirming what came before it, as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel (3:3)
previously, as a guide for people, and ˹also˺ revealed the Decisive Authority. Surely those who reject Allah’s revelations will suffer a severe torment. For Allah is Almighty, capable of punishment. (3:4)

Then in the footsteps of the prophets, We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing. (5:46)
So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious. (5:47)
We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences. (5:48)

Had the People of the Book only been faithful and mindful ˹of Allah˺, We would have certainly absolved them of their sins and admitted them into the Gardens of Bliss. (5:65)
And had they observed the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have been overwhelmed with provisions from above and below. Some among them are upright, yet many do nothing but evil. (5:66)
O Messenger! Convey everything revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not, then you have not delivered His message. Allah will ˹certainly˺ protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the people who disbelieve. (5:67)
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve. (5:68)

Do not argue with the People of the Book unless gracefully, except with those of them who act wrongfully. And say, “We believe in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to you. Our God and your God is ˹only˺ One. And to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.” (29:46)

If you ˹O Prophet˺ are in doubt about ˹these stories˺ that We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt, (10:94)

˹Say, O Prophet,˺ “Should I seek a judge other than Allah while He is the One Who has revealed for you the Book ˹with the truth˺ perfectly explained?” Those who were given the Scripture know that it has been revealed ˹to you˺ from your Lord in truth. So do not be one of those who doubt. (6:114)
The Word of your Lord has been perfected in truth and justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearing, All- Knowing. (6:115)

To take the important points together then, we see that:

1. The gospel was given to Jesus
2. "People of the Gospel [Christians] judge by what Allah has revealed in it"
3. The Qur'an was given as "a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them"
4. Christians (and Jews) "have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel"
5. Muslims are to say to Christians, "We believe in . . . what was revealed to you"
6. If Muhammed (and perhaps, by extension, every Muslim) was in doubt about what the Qur'an states, he was to "then ask those who read the Scripture before you"
7. "None can change [Allah's] Words"

And we know that the gospels we have now are the same as the gospels we had when Muhammed was alive. They have not changed. That is actually supported indirectly by 6:115. Yet, here you are saying that the gospels aren't true, as pretty much all Muslims do, which is in direct contradiction with the Qur'an.

But, the Qur'an also contradicts itself by saying what the Gospels teach is false:

and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so. Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him. (4:157)

That is where Muslims get the idea that the crucifixion is false. Yet, we know historically that Jesus was crucified, as it is mentioned in all four gospels. Pretty much the only scholars that deny that are Muslim.

O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit ˹created by a command˺ from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, “Trinity.” Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs. (4:171)

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger. ˹Many˺ messengers had ˹come and˺ gone before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They both ate food. See how We make the signs clear to them, yet see how they are deluded ˹from the truth˺! (5:75)

Yet, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God.

So, on the one hand the Qur'an states the Gospel is true, that the Bible is true, and that God's words never change. And we know that the gospels we have now are the very same as in Muhammad's time. But, on the other hand, the Qur'an denies the very central teachings of the gospels, from Jesus himself no less.

The Qur'an is completely untrustworthy as it contradicts itself rather significantly on some fundamental issues, as shown above. This is all the more important since Muhammad's revelations came to him some 600 years after Jesus and more than 500 years after the gospels were written. The Qur'an simply is not and cannot be a revelation from God.

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

There is no salvation in Islam.

The anonymous author of ‘John’ most certainly knew of these Thomasines, since he targets them with the following – very well known – ‘Doubting Thomas’ pericope:

‘Thomas, called the Twin, who was one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples said to him, 'We have seen the Lord,' but he answered, 'Unless I can see the holes that the nails made in his hands and can put my finger into the holes they made, and unless I can put my hand into his side, I refuse to believe.'

‘Eight days later the disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. The doors were closed, but Jesus came in and stood among them. 'Peace be with you,' he said. Then he spoke to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; look, here are my hands. Give me your hand; put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving any more but believe.' Thomas replied, 'My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him: You believe because you can see me. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.’ (Jn: 20: 24-29).

This pericope, of course, is pure propaganda; a fiction, created for theological purposes.

What is your evidence?

And what of Barabbas?

As you know, Barabbas is said to have been freed by Pilate – who’s custom (it is claimed) was to release, in honour of the Jewish Passover festival, a prisoner guilty of a capital crime.

This is risible nonsense!

There is no evidence – none at all – that the so-called ‘Privilegium Paschale’ was a custom for either the Jews or the Romans.

That no evidence of this custom has been found doesn't mean that it is false. Be careful with arguments from silence. Much biblical history was called into question because of historical or archaeological silence, but much has been found that proves those things true that were once called false.

 

[Free]

Concerning the crucifixion narratives:

These narratives have been fabricated by the simple process of scriptural eisegesis – the process of introducing into a text one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases.

Let’s have a look at some examples:

First:

Yeshua is nailed to a cross. This notion is based on a specific interpretation of Ps 22:16: ‘For dogs surround me; a band of evil men encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet.’

It is worth noting that the Masoretic text has Psalmist say: ‘For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evildoers have enclosed me; like a lion they are at my hands and my feet.’ – my emphasis.

The ‘New Jerusalem Bible (Standard Edition)’ has: ‘A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closing in on me as if to hack off my hands and my feet.’ – my emphasis.

An earlier version of the ‘Jerusalem Bible’ has: ‘A pack of dogs surrounds me, a gang of villains closes me in; they tie me hand and foot.’ – my emphasis.

The ‘Douay-Rheims Bible’ has: ‘For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.’ – my emphasis.

A detailed examination of this particular text lies outside the scope of this thread; suffice it to say that the crucial word is ‘ka'ari’; which means lion; like a lion; as a lion; and so on. In verses 12-13 and 20-21 the word is translated correctly. Had the Psalmist wished to declare that his hands and feet had been pierced he would not have used the word ‘ka'ari’ at all; rather, he would have used either ‘daqar’ or ‘ratza’. These are the Hebrew words used for pierce or pierced.

Second:

Yeshua’s garments are divided. This is taken directly from Ps 22:18: ‘They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.’

Third:

Yeshua is subjected to mockery. This is taken from Ps 22:7: ‘All who see me mock me; they sneer and shake their heads.’

Fourth:

Yeshua is then mocked by priests. They call on him to come down from the cross, so that they may see and believe (Mark 15:32). This is taken from Ps 22:8: ‘He trusts in the LORD, let the LORD deliver him; let the LORD rescue him, since He delights in him.’

Matthew adds to this mockery: ‘He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, `I am the son of God.’ (Matthew 27:43).

This wee snippet is taken – not from personal memory – but from a truncated interpretation of Wisdom 2:12-20:

‘………………………. For if the upright man is God's son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies. Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test. Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him – or so he claims.'

Finally:

We have Yeshua’s alleged final words – a cry of dereliction, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

This, of course, is the opening line of Ps. 22; a fact that neither Mark nor Matthew acknowledge.

Both Mark and Matthew carefully avoid the remainder of that verse; and the one that follows after: ‘Why are You so far from saving me, so far from my words of groaning? I cry out by day, O my God, but You do not answer, and by night, but I have no rest.’ – my emphasis.

According to the gospels, Yeshua spent around six hours on the cross; and yet the Psalmist cries out by day and by night. How can this be the crucified Messiah?

Luke – for his own reasons – decides to change Yeshua’s final words, making him say: ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.’ (Luke 23:46). This is taken from Ps. 31:5: ‘Into Your hands I commit my spirit.’

John – who portrays a far more robust Yeshua than does the Synoptists – has him say a simple ‘It is finished!’

Robert M. Price writes:

‘Because he will not allow that terrible cry of dereliction from the cross, John has had to invent another speech that will bring the wine on the sponge, and he too goes to Septuagint Psalm 69:21: "They ... made me drink vinegar (oxos) for my thirst," changing the last words into direct discourse (dipsan, "thirst," to Dipso, "I thirst).

‘But why change "sponge on the end of. a cane (kalamo)" to a "sponge on hyssop (hussopo)?" I would suggest that the marjoram or hyssop comes not only from the Psalms but also is a way for John to introduce more Paschal symbolism into the crucifixion. Remember that the first phrase uttered about Jesus in the Fourth Gospel is the Baptist's "Behold the lamb of God" (1:29), and that John presents Jesus dying even as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in Jerusalem.

‘According to Exodus, hyssop (marjoram) was to be used for sprinkling the blood of the Paschal lamb on the doorposts and lintels of Hebrew homes (12:21); thus, the touching of Jesus with hyssop becomes the symbolic reenactment of the Passover ritual upon his own person.’ (‘Killing History: Jesus In The No-Spin Zone.’).

In conclusion:

Robert Price writes:

‘What are we to make of this very strange circumstance, that no memory of the central saving event of the Christian religion survived, that when someone first ventured to tell the story of the crucifixion of the Savior, the only building blocks available for the task were various Scripture texts?’ (‘The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man – How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition?’)

Blessings.

These are the same types of arguments that atheists make, but it betrays your bias. They're based on a single fallacious argument--a false dilemma--that Christians cannot win. On the one hand, diversity within the accounts is taken that it's all contradictory. On the other, if they were all the same it would all be "plagiarism" and made-up.

But, again, you're also contradicting the Qur'an, which affirms the truth of the Bible (despite also contradicting itself by denying the truth of the Bible). Leave Islam; it is utterly false and Muhammad was not a prophet of God. You will not find salvation there; no one will.

In short, none of what you have provided proves any difficulty, never mind even come close to proving your argument that "These narratives have been fabricated by the simple process of scriptural eisegesis – the process of introducing into a text one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases."

 

[GodsGrace]

I assume that you are getting those weak arguments, including the one below, from Islamic apologists. But that would be a grave error on your part. There is every reason to believe the gospel accounts over the Qur'an.

He has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book in truth, confirming what came before it, as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel (3:3)
previously, as a guide for people, and ˹also˺ revealed the Decisive Authority. Surely those who reject Allah’s revelations will suffer a severe torment. For Allah is Almighty, capable of punishment. (3:4)

Then in the footsteps of the prophets, We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. And We gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light and confirming what was revealed in the Torah—a guide and a lesson to the God-fearing. (5:46)
So let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. And those who do not judge by what Allah has revealed are ˹truly˺ the rebellious. (5:47)
We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences. (5:48)

Had the People of the Book only been faithful and mindful ˹of Allah˺, We would have certainly absolved them of their sins and admitted them into the Gardens of Bliss. (5:65)
And had they observed the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have been overwhelmed with provisions from above and below. Some among them are upright, yet many do nothing but evil. (5:66)
O Messenger! Convey everything revealed to you from your Lord. If you do not, then you have not delivered His message. Allah will ˹certainly˺ protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the people who disbelieve. (5:67)
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve. (5:68)

Do not argue with the People of the Book unless gracefully, except with those of them who act wrongfully. And say, “We believe in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to you. Our God and your God is ˹only˺ One. And to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.” (29:46)

If you ˹O Prophet˺ are in doubt about ˹these stories˺ that We have revealed to you, then ask those who read the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt, (10:94)

˹Say, O Prophet,˺ “Should I seek a judge other than Allah while He is the One Who has revealed for you the Book ˹with the truth˺ perfectly explained?” Those who were given the Scripture know that it has been revealed ˹to you˺ from your Lord in truth. So do not be one of those who doubt. (6:114)
The Word of your Lord has been perfected in truth and justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearing, All- Knowing. (6:115)

To take the important points together then, we see that:

1. The gospel was given to Jesus
2. "People of the Gospel [Christians] judge by what Allah has revealed in it"
3. The Qur'an was given as "a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them"
4. Christians (and Jews) "have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel"
5. Muslims are to say to Christians, "We believe in . . . what was revealed to you"
6. If Muhammed (and perhaps, by extension, every Muslim) was in doubt about what the Qur'an states, he was to "then ask those who read the Scripture before you"
7. "None can change [Allah's] Words"

And we know that the gospels we have now are the same as the gospels we had when Muhammed was alive. They have not changed. That is actually supported indirectly by 6:115. Yet, here you are saying that the gospels aren't true, as pretty much all Muslims do, which is in direct contradiction with the Qur'an.

But, the Qur'an also contradicts itself by saying what the Gospels teach is false:

and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so. Even those who argue for this ˹crucifixion˺ are in doubt. They have no knowledge whatsoever—only making assumptions. They certainly did not kill him. (4:157)

That is where Muslims get the idea that the crucifixion is false. Yet, we know historically that Jesus was crucified, as it is mentioned in all four gospels. Pretty much the only scholars that deny that are Muslim.

O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit ˹created by a command˺ from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, “Trinity.” Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs. (4:171)

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger. ˹Many˺ messengers had ˹come and˺ gone before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They both ate food. See how We make the signs clear to them, yet see how they are deluded ˹from the truth˺! (5:75)

Yet, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God.

So, on the one hand the Qur'an states the Gospel is true, that the Bible is true, and that God's words never change. And we know that the gospels we have now are the very same as in Muhammad's time. But, on the other hand, the Qur'an denies the very central teachings of the gospels, from Jesus himself no less.

The Qur'an is completely untrustworthy as it contradicts itself rather significantly on some fundamental issues, as shown above. This is all the more important since Muhammad's revelations came to him some 600 years after Jesus and more than 500 years after the gospels were written. The Qur'an simply is not and cannot be a revelation from God.

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

There is no salvation in Islam.


What is your evidence?


That no evidence of this custom has been found doesn't mean that it is false. Be careful with arguments from silence. Much biblical history was called into question because of historical or archaeological silence, but much has been found that proves those things true that were once called false.

The Qur'an states that the NT is to be obeyed.
There are studies in progress, that are questioning if Muhammad ever even existed (as a prophet).
It's possible that someone else wrote the Qur'an and put his name on it and about 70 years after his death.
I'm not stating this as fact,,,but the Qur'an is coming under intense scrutiny.

Islam is not a religion of peace...
It states that Jews and Christians are enemies and are to be "destroyed".

By force the middle east was turned into islamic states....
happily, due to the crusades, this was avoided in Europe.

Muslims begin their day by praying to the merciful God.
But God is not merciful in Islam.....
He is just.

In Christianity God is shown to be both merciful AND just.

There would be too much to say...
I'm going to stop here.

PS
I'm rather shocked at the statements being made by Niblo, an old friend.
It's no wonder that islam is growing....brainwashing is their forte'....
but I believe it's changing....some are coming to understand Christianity and the big differences between the two religions.

 

[Free]

The Qur'an states that the NT is to be obeyed.
There are studies not in progress, that are questioning if Muhammad ever even existed (as a prophet).
It's possible that someone else wrote the Qur'an and put his name on it and about 70 years after his death.
I'm not stating this as fact,,,but the Qur'an is coming under intense scrutiny.

I believe the Hadiths show how the Qur'an came together, and it is far from what is commonly taught. There is simply no way the Qur'an has been preserved as Muslims claim.

Islam is not a religion of peace...
It states that Jews and Christians are enemies and are to be "destroyed".

Exactly. It is often stated that Islam means "peace," but it really means "submission," as you probably know.

By force the middle east was turned into islamic states....
happily, due to the crusades, this was avoided in Europe.

There is a reason that in every country where there is a Muslim majority, there is either war or significant persecution of followers of other religions. Significant problems always follow Islam.

Muslims begin their day by praying to the merciful God.
But God is not merciful in Islam.....
He is just.

In Christianity God is shown to be both merciful AND just.

Exactly!

There would be too much to say...
I'm going to stop here.

Yeah, we could go on for a long time...

PS

I'm rather shocked at the statements being made by Niblo, an old friend.
It's no wonder that islam is growing....brainwashing is their forte'....

Yes, unlike Christianity, Islam grows, in part, because of force and deception, as it always has.

but I believe it's changing....some are coming to understand Christianity and the big differences between the two religions.

If only they would read the Hadiths and see where they have been lied to by their Imams. But, many have come to the true faith, Christianity, because Jesus appears to them in dreams.

 

[Fish153]

Hi Fish.

I agree. There is no doubt that certain Jews wanted Yeshua dead; but not for the reasons given in the Gospels; and not by crucifixion.

Consider the ‘Talmud Bavli’ (‘Babylonian Talmud’):

Celsus, a polemic writer against Christians, produced his ‘Logos Alēthēs’ (‘The True Word’) between the years 175 and 180 CE. Around 240 CE, a copy was given to Origen of Alexandria, one of the most influential scholars in the early Church.

The original text of ‘Logos Alēthēs’ has been lost, but scholars have been able to reconstruct much of it, thanks to Origen’s many citations.

Origen writes (my emphases):

‘He (Celsus) also introduces an imaginary character (a Jew) who addresses childish remarks to Jesus and says nothing worthy of a philosopher’s grey hairs…. After this he represents the Jew as having a conversation with Jesus himself and refuting him on many charges, as he thinks: first, because he (Jesus) fabricated the story of his birth from a virgin; and he reproaches him because he came from a Jewish village and from a poor country woman who earned her living by spinning. He (Celsus) says that she was driven out by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, as she was convicted of adultery.’ (‘Contra Celsus – Book 1; Chapter 28’).

In Chapter 32 of his work, Origen writes:

‘Let us return, however, to the words put into the mouth of the Jew, where the mother of Jesus is described as having been turned out by the carpenter who was betrothed to her, "as she had been convicted of adultery and had a child by a certain soldier named Panthera”’.

Henry Chadwick, in his translation of the ‘Contra Celsus, writes:

‘The title Jesus ben Panthera is not uncommon in the Talmud……. Eusebius, commenting on Hos. v. 14 (‘Return, Israel, to the Lord your God. Your sins have been your downfall!’) says: ‘The text may be quoted against those of the circumcision who slanderously and abusively assert that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was born of Panthera Epiphanius’

When preparing his book ‘Jesus in the Talmud, Peter Schäfer – a noted scholar in the field of ancient Judaism and early Christianity, and one-time Ronald O. Perelman Professor of Judaic Studies at Princeton University – drew on fourteen Talmud manuscripts (both censored and uncensored); along with two printed versions; the Soncino (1484-1519) and the Vilna (1880-1886).
For our purposes, the uncensored tracts are of particular relevance. The oldest used by Schäfer are the Firenze II-I-7-9; an Ashkenazi manuscript of 1177 CE; and the Herzog 1; a Yemeni manuscript of c1565 CE.

Schäfer writes:

‘The (Babylonian) Talmud seems to be convinced that (Yeshua’s) true father was Pandera, his mother’s lover, and that he was a b*****d in the full sense of the word.’ (‘Jesus in the Talmud’).

Referring to the tractate ‘Sanhedrin 43’, Schäfer continues:

‘With the sixth chapter (“Jesus’ Execution”) we return to the fate of Jesus himself. Here, a quite elaborate story – again only in the Babylonian Talmud – details the halakhic procedure of Jesus’ trial and execution: Jesus was not crucified but, according to Jewish law, stoned to death and then, as the ultimate post-mortem punishment reserved for the worst criminals, hanged on a tree. This took place on the eve of Passover, which happened to be Sabbath eve (Friday). The reason for his execution was because he was convicted of sorcery and of enticing Israel into idolatry.’ (‘Jesus in the Talmud’; my emphases).

The fact that certain people hold certain beliefs – and are prepared to die rather than deny them – does
not, of itself, validate those beliefs.

As for Paul’s claim that a collective of five hundred people saw Yeshua after his resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3-5)…….

In one of his Blogs, Bart Ehrman writes:

‘Paul did know both Peter and James, and so presumably they told him that they had had visions of Jesus. He knew lots of other Christians who either were Christians before he was or who knew Christians who were Christians before he was. Or who were later Christians who had heard stories that were allegedly told by Christians who were Christians before he was.

‘So where did Paul get his information from? Maybe Peter. Maybe James. Maybe other Christians. Maybe a combination of them all. I doubt if he “made up” the idea of “500 brothers” at one time out of whole cloth.

‘My sense is that rumours of these sorts of things circulate all the time – as with the appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary in modern times, as she is attested as appearing to 1000 people at once in some times and places. Do I think this is evidence that she really did appear to these people? No, not really. Same with Paul. There were stories about such appearances, and he believed them.’

By the way, Ehrman states that:

‘There was almost certainly no Christian group (meaning: a group of people who believed Jesus was raised from the dead) of that size in Paul’s day anywhere in the world!’

He references his book ‘The Triumph of Christianity’.

It’s only right to point out, by the way, that in a second blog, Ehrman writes:

‘The crucifixion of Jesus by the Romans is one of the most secure facts we have about his life.’

Blessings.

Niblio--- you state above:
"The fact that certain people hold certain beliefs – and are prepared to die rather than deny them – does
not, of itself, validate those beliefs".

I think if all (12) Apostles, and MANY disciples were all willing to die rather than refute that Jesus had risen from the dead it is very good proof that they SINCERELY believed what they had seen was real. Peter even asked to be crucified upside-down rather than how Jesus was crucified.

With Peter, you also have to add his further testimony:

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
"And this voice which came from heaven WE HEARD, when we were with him in the holy mount." (2 Peter 1:16-18)

Not only had Peter witnessed that Jesus was beaten and crucified, he had witnessed Him after his resurrection on more than one occasion--once when Jesus directed him to "throw the net to the right hand side of the boat" and he wound up catching 153 fish.

But Peter also mentions that he SAW Jesus TRANSFIGURED and then HEARD the FATHER speak from Heaven. Peter was so convinced, that there was no way (especially after having denied and then been restored) he could possibly DENY what he had seen and heard. This was also the case with the other Apostles---they were CERTAIN that Jesus was crucified and ROSE FROM THE DEAD. They would rather die than deny this. I happen to believe them over these "scholars" you have been quoting from---who have a "bent" towards raising doubts about everything!

I also do not believe any of the writers of the Gospels stole anything from one another. Some of the Gospels have stories unique to them (Like Zaccheus in Luke for example), and only one miracle (the feeding of the 5000) is in all of the Gospels. it is very possible they compared with one another. It's like (4) people all describing an accident or event they had seen. They are going to have "takes" on the event that match the others---and then "takes" on things the other (3) don't even mention. The (4) Gospels seem to have a parallel tie to the (4) "living creatures" before the throne of God. I believe the Bible is perfect and the direct and concise Word of God. It is too much of a miracle to be anything else.

 

[ezrider]

Niblio--- you state above:
"The fact that certain people hold certain beliefs – and are prepared to die rather than deny them – does
not, of itself, validate those beliefs".

I think if all (12) Apostles, and MANY disciples were all willing to die rather than refute that Jesus had risen from the dead it is very good proof that they SINCERELY believed what they had seen was real. Peter even asked to be crucified upside-down rather than how Jesus was crucified.

Would you say the same for the followers of Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple? How about David Koresh and the Branch Dividians. Because they all were willing to die for their faith, did that make them more believable?

 

[Free]

Would you say the same for the followers of Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple? How about David Koresh and the Branch Dividians. Because they all were willing to die for their faith, did that make them more believable?

There is a vast difference between eyewitnesses of Christ's death and resurrection, and others living during that time, and people some 1,900-2,000 years later, especially since Christ's disciples could easily point to the empty tomb.

Of course, "The fact that certain people hold certain beliefs – and are prepared to die rather than deny them – does
not, of itself, validate those beliefs," is just as true for Muslims as it is for Christians.

 

[Fish153]

Would you say the same for the followers of Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple? How about David Koresh and the Branch Dividians. Because they all were willing to die for their faith, did that make them more believable?

EZ----

Bad examples. The followers of David Koresh and the followers of Jim Jones were largely "forced" to commit suicide in the one instance, and to stay until the whole place burned down in the other. Peter was "forced" by no one to die---he COULD HAVE LIVED if he had denied what he claimed was true and what he had seen.

 

[Fish153]

There is a vast difference between eyewitnesses of Christ's death and resurrection, and others living during that time, and people some 1,900-2,000 years later, especially since Christ's disciples could easily point to the empty tomb.

Of course, "The fact that certain people hold certain beliefs – and are prepared to die rather than deny them – does
not, of itself, validate those beliefs," is just as true for Muslims as it is for Christians.

The Martyrs in the Muslim faith are promised 70 virgins and paradise for giving up their lives. Peter and the others looked forward to Heaven----but they saw no special blessing in being a martyr other than pleasing Jesus Christ. To me there is a HUGE difference between Muslim martyrs and Christian martyrs. Muslim martyrs die to obtain something for THEMSELVES, whereas Christian martyrs hope to bring glory to their Lord by their deaths. This is just my opinion of course--I understand that.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

It seems Iran went out and got enriched uranium so was weeks from getting it to weapons grade of 90% and they had the missiles or bombs ready to put it into and use on Israel. So they needed to do a preemptive strike or face nuclear annihilation days or weeks away, as Iran will not stop till it gets it to nuclear weapons grade and use it.

"VIENNA (AP) — Iran has further increased its stockpile of uranium enriched to near weapons-grade levels, a confidential report by the U.N. nuclear watchdog said Saturday. In a separate report, the agency called on Tehran to urgently change course and comply with its years-long probe.

The report comes at a sensitive time, as the administration of U.S. President Donald Trump seeks to reach a deal with Tehran to limit its nuclear program. The two sides have held several rounds of talks, so far without agreement.

The report by the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency — which was seen by The Associated Press — says that as of May 17, Iran has amassed 408.6 kilograms (900.8 pounds) of uranium enriched up to 60%.

That’s an increase of 133.8 kilograms (294.9 pounds) — or almost 50% — since the IAEA’s last report in February. The 60% enriched material is a short, technical step away from weapons-grade levels of 90%. A report in February put this stockpile level at 274.8 kilograms (605.8 pounds)...

Approximately 42 kilograms of 60% enriched uranium is theoretically enough to produce one atomic bomb, if enriched further to 90%, according to the watchdog.

The IAEA report, a quarterly, also estimated that as of May 17, Iran’s overall stockpile of enriched uranium — which includes uranium enriched to lower levels — stood at 9,247.6 kilograms (20,387.4 pounds). That’s an increase of 953.2 kilograms (2,101.4 pounds) since February’s report.


Iran has maintained its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes only, but the IAEA chief, Rafael Mariano Grossi, has warned that Tehran has enough uranium enriched to near-weapons-grade levels to make “several” nuclear bombs if it chose to do so.."
https://apnews.com/article/iran-nuclear-iaea-uranium-7f6c9962c1e4199e951559096bcf5cc0.

"..Here’s what it means to enrich uranium – and why it raises concerns in Iran-Israel conflict

According to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), Iran has enriched large quantities of uranium to 60 per cent. It’s actually easier to go from an enrichment of 60 per cent to 90 per

Late last week, Israel targeted three of Iran’s key nuclear facilities – Natanz, Isfahan and Fordow – killing several Iranian nuclear scientists.

The facilities are heavily fortified and largely underground, and there are conflicting reports of how much damage has been done.

Natanz and Fordow are Iran’s uranium enrichment sites, and Isfahan provides the raw materials, so any damage to these sites would limit Iran’s ability to produce nuclear weapons."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-israel-uranium-enrichment-b2770714.html.

"..Iran has enriched uranium for 10 nuclear bombs, continues production
A confidential report by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), obtained by The Wall Street Journal, confirms that Iran has continued producing high-level enriched uranium. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office responded, saying: "The report proves that Iran's goal is to develop a nuclear weapons program. The world must stop it....
Despite ongoing nuclear talks with the United States, Iran has continued enriching uranium at a pace sufficient to yield enough material for one nuclear bomb per month, according to The Wall Street Journal, which cited an IAEA document circulated to member states."

Iran has enriched uranium for 10 nuclear bombs, continues production

A confidential report by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), obtained by The Wall Street Journal, confirms that Iran has continued producing

www.israelhayom.com

"When Israel launched its series of strikes against Iran last week, it also issued a number of dire warnings about the country’s nuclear program, suggesting Iran was fast approaching a point of no return in its quest to obtain nuclear weapons and that the strikes were necessary to preempt that outcome."

MSN

Hello reddogs,

Love, Walter

 

[Niblo]

The Martyrs in the Muslim faith are promised 70 virgins and paradise for giving up their lives.

Allow me to correct you.

The notion that those who die as martyrs are gifted (72) virgins is a fanciful misguidance, intended to appeal to impressionable young men, who are high in testosterone, but extremely low in Islamic knowledge.

The notion is not found in the Qur’an; rather, it arises from a single ḥādīth in the collection of Jami' at-Tirmidhi; categorised by ʼaḥādīth scholars as ‘Ḍaʻīf’ (weak), due to its poor chain of narrators. In short, the ḥādīth is untrustworthy.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says:

‘But those mindful of Allāh will be in a safe place amid Gardens and springs, clothed in silk and fine brocade, facing one another: and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes.’ (Sūrah ‘Al-Dukhan: 52-54’; my emphasis).

The text ‘and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ translates the Arabic: ‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

Surah Al-Tur: 20 says likewise: ‘And we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ (‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

The Arabic for a virgin (or maiden) is ‘al-adra’.

In these sūrahs, the word ‘biḥūrin’ stems from the Arabic ‘ḥūri’; a word that applies to both sexes; (being the plural of ‘awhar’ (masculine) and ‘hawra’ (feminine).

The Qur’an refers to Heaven as ‘al-janna’, meaning ‘the garden’. It is the home of the righteous, the home of Peace.

In ‘al-janna’, men shall be wed to fair companions who are female; and women to fair companions who are male.

Professor Abdel Haleem – King Fahd Professor of Islamic Studies at the SOAS University of London – writes:

‘There is no overt mention in the Qur’an of sex taking place between spouses in janna, although the relationship is lawful between spouses and the Qur’an does not shy away from mentioning it in the context of this world. The mutual love (‘uruban) between spouses in the garden (56:37–8) epitomises the most fulfilling aspect of the relationship between spouses as expressed in the Qur’an: Another of His signs is that He created spouses from among yourselves for you to live with in tranquillity: He ordained love and kindness between you (30:21).’

‘Part of God’s blessing on the righteous is that they will be joined in paradise with the righteous of their parents, spouses (azwāj) and offspring (13:23)…… Al-Janna is not the home of ‘believing men’ only but also of ‘believing women.’ (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’; my emphases).

Consider these ʾāyāt:

‘(Prophet), do not think of those who have been killed in God’s way as dead. They are alive with their Lord, well provided for, happy with what God has given them of His favour; rejoicing that for those they have left behind who have yet to join them there is no fear, nor will they grieve; (rejoicing) in God’s blessing and favour, and that God will not let the reward of the believers be lost.’ (Sūrah ‘Al‘Imran: 167-171’).

I was a Christian for over sixty years, and well educated in the Faith. I have never met – nor read the works of – any priest; scholar; or Christian layperson who believed that the Qur’an was revealed by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Without exception, these folk believe that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was both a fraud and a liar; a man who authored the Qur’an from heretical sources, or from the Bible itself. They have a question to answer:

If the Prophet truly believed – and taught – that martyrs (violent or otherwise) are rewarded with virgins, then why is this not declared in the Qur’an?

Al‘Imran:167-171 would be the perfect location for such a declaration.

Blessings

 

[Niblo]

The Qur'an states that the NT is to be obeyed.
There are studies in progress, that are questioning if Muhammad ever even existed (as a prophet).
It's possible that someone else wrote the Qur'an and put his name on it and about 70 years after his death.
I'm not stating this as fact,,,but the Qur'an is coming under intense scrutiny.

Islam is not a religion of peace...
It states that Jews and Christians are enemies and are to be "destroyed".

By force the middle east was turned into islamic states....
happily, due to the crusades, this was avoided in Europe.

Muslims begin their day by praying to the merciful God.
But God is not merciful in Islam.....
He is just.

In Christianity God is shown to be both merciful AND just.

There would be too much to say...
I'm going to stop here.

PS
I'm rather shocked at the statements being made by Niblo, an old friend.
It's no wonder that islam is growing....brainwashing is their forte'....
but I believe it's changing....some are coming to understand Christianity and the big differences between the two religions.pe youn are well.

Hi Fran (old friend!).

Hope you are well.

There is absolutely no requirement for a Jew (or a Christian) to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.

The Beloved tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

And this is what He has to say about Jews and Christians:

'Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7 -8; my emphases).

And this:

‘They are not all alike. There are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite God’s revelations during the night, who bow down in worship, who believe in God and the Last Day, who order what is right and forbid what is wrong, who are quick to do good deeds. These people are among the righteous and they will not be denied (the reward) for whatever good deeds they do: God knows exactly who is conscious of Him.’ (Al‘Imran: 113-115).

Take especial note of these ʾāyāt. It has been my privilege to know – and to love – Jews and Christians who were shining examples of love and good practice. These ʾāyāt assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven. These verses assure me that every Jew, and every Christian, who carries the Beloved in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward. This is a solemn promise, and the Beloved does not renege on His promises.

If this is what the Beloved has to say about the ‘best of creation’, what right does any Muslim have to exhibit hostility towards them – simply for being a Christian or a Jew?’

The Qur’an gives no support for such behaviour. Those who act this way are usurpers. This is what Khaled M. Abou El Fadl – Omar and Azmeralda Alfi Distinguished Professor of Law at the UCLA School of Law – has to say of them:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

There is no disagreement among Islamic scholars that Muslim men are permitted to marry Jewish or Christian women. In such marriages, the wife retains an absolute right, not only to retain her faith, but to practise it.

Blessings.

 

[Niblo]

GodsGrace

Hi again.

You write:

'The Qur'an states that the NT is to be obeyed.' (Post 203).

No.

The Beloved says:

‘We sent Yeshua, son of Mary, in their footsteps, to confirm the Torah that had been sent before him: We gave him the ʾInjīl with guidance, light, and confirmation of the Torah already revealed – a guide and lesson for those who take heed of God.’ (Sūrah Al-Ma’ida: 46).

The Arabic word ‘ʾInjīl’ is translated ‘Gospel’ by those writing in English. In the Qur’an, however, the word is always in the singular, and is never used to describe the four Gospels - or the others books - of the New Testament.

These narratives cannot possibly be the ‘ʾInjīl’ mentioned in the Qur’an.

Yeshua was, of course, sent as a prophet to the Jews: ‘And he answered and said to them, I am not sent, except to the sheep which went astray from the house of Israel.’ (Matthew 15:24; Aramaic Bible in Plain English).

It is quite clear from Al-Ma’ida 46 that Yeshua was given the ʾInjīl complete; how else could it have been ‘a guidance, light and confirmation of the Torah’?

The ʾInjīl It is one of the four holy books that were revealed by the Beloved; the others being the ‘Zabur’ (the Psalms); the ‘Tawrat’ (‘Torah’); and the Qur’an itself.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes that the ʾInjīl:

‘…. is not the New Testament. It is not the four Gospels now received as canonical. It is the single Gospel which, Islam teaches, was revealed to Jesus, and which he taught.’ (‘The Holy Qur’an: Text, Translation and Commentary’).

I know of no scholar who claims that the ʾInjīl survives today.

It is possible that our Gospels contain something of the ʾInjīl: aspects of the Sermon on the Mount, for example; or Yeshua's confirmation that he was sent only to the 'lost sheep of Israel' (Matthew 15: 24); or his confirmation that he did not come to abolish the Law of Moses, or the writings of the prophets; but to 'accomplish their purpose.' (Matthew 5: 7); namely, to draw the 'lost sheep of Israel' back into the fold of HaShem; and to help them remain there.

Since the 19th century, New Testament scholars have recognised that the gospel of Mark is the foundation of both Matthew and of Luke. It has been suggested that that Matthew and Luke shared a second source, namely the sayings document known as ‘Q’ (from the German ‘Quelle’ or ‘source’)

Professor John S. Kloppenborg – a Canadian professor of religious studies – writes that:

‘Q is neither a mysterious papyrus nor a parchment from stacks of uncatalogued manuscripts in an old European library. It is a document whose existence we must assume in order to make sense of other features of the Gospels.’ (‘Q, the Earliest Gospel - An Introduction to the Original Stories and Sayings of Jesus’).

It may be that ‘Q’ was inspired by the ʾInjīl.

This, of course, is speculation on my part.

Blessings.

 

[hawkman]

I was a Christian for over sixty years, and well educated in the Faith.

There was a point in your life where you lost the truth . The truth is still there .

7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Luke 9:62
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

I have never met – nor read the works of – any priest; scholar; or Christian layperson who believed that the Qur’an was revealed by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

I can understand that , and here is why .

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

You were visited by a roaring lion and we see the results .

8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Fran (old friend!).

Hope you are well.

There is absolutely no requirement for a Jew (or a Christian) to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.

The Beloved tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

And this is what He has to say about Jews and Christians:

'Those who believe and do good deeds are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7 -8; my emphases).

And this:

‘They are not all alike. There are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite God’s revelations during the night, who bow down in worship, who believe in God and the Last Day, who order what is right and forbid what is wrong, who are quick to do good deeds. These people are among the righteous and they will not be denied (the reward) for whatever good deeds they do: God knows exactly who is conscious of Him.’ (Al‘Imran: 113-115).

Take especial note of these ʾāyāt. It has been my privilege to know – and to love – Jews and Christians who were shining examples of love and good practice. These ʾāyāt assure me that they shall have their reward in Heaven. These verses assure me that every Jew, and every Christian, who carries the Beloved in their hearts, and who strives to do good, will have their reward. This is a solemn promise, and the Beloved does not renege on His promises.

If this is what the Beloved has to say about the ‘best of creation’, what right does any Muslim have to exhibit hostility towards them – simply for being a Christian or a Jew?’

The Qur’an gives no support for such behaviour. Those who act this way are usurpers. This is what Khaled M. Abou El Fadl – Omar and Azmeralda Alfi Distinguished Professor of Law at the UCLA School of Law – has to say of them:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

There is no disagreement among Islamic scholars that Muslim men are permitted to marry Jewish or Christian women. In such marriages, the wife retains an absolute right, not only to retain her faith, but to practise it.

Blessings.

I guess it depends on which surah of the Quran one reads.

One says to respect them because they serve the same God.

Another said they are to be charged money instead of being killed.

Another says they must be subdued...meaning killed.

The goal of Islam is to conquer the world.

With violent means if necessary.
This is why Islam grows.

 

[Free]

Allow me to correct you.

The notion that those who die as martyrs are gifted (72) virgins is a fanciful misguidance, intended to appeal to impressionable young men, who are high in testosterone, but extremely low in Islamic knowledge.

The notion is not found in the Qur’an; rather, it arises from a single ḥādīth in the collection of Jami' at-Tirmidhi; categorised by ʼaḥādīth scholars as ‘Ḍaʻīf’ (weak), due to its poor chain of narrators. In short, the ḥādīth is untrustworthy.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says:

‘But those mindful of Allāh will be in a safe place amid Gardens and springs, clothed in silk and fine brocade, facing one another: and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes.’ (Sūrah ‘Al-Dukhan: 52-54’; my emphasis).

The text ‘and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ translates the Arabic: ‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

Surah Al-Tur: 20 says likewise: ‘And we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ (‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

The Arabic for a virgin (or maiden) is ‘al-adra’.

In these sūrahs, the word ‘biḥūrin’ stems from the Arabic ‘ḥūri’; a word that applies to both sexes; (being the plural of ‘awhar’ (masculine) and ‘hawra’ (feminine).

The Qur’an refers to Heaven as ‘al-janna’, meaning ‘the garden’. It is the home of the righteous, the home of Peace.

In ‘al-janna’, men shall be wed to fair companions who are female; and women to fair companions who are male.

Professor Abdel Haleem – King Fahd Professor of Islamic Studies at the SOAS University of London – writes:

‘There is no overt mention in the Qur’an of sex taking place between spouses in janna, although the relationship is lawful between spouses and the Qur’an does not shy away from mentioning it in the context of this world. The mutual love (‘uruban) between spouses in the garden (56:37–8) epitomises the most fulfilling aspect of the relationship between spouses as expressed in the Qur’an: Another of His signs is that He created spouses from among yourselves for you to live with in tranquillity: He ordained love and kindness between you (30:21).’

‘Part of God’s blessing on the righteous is that they will be joined in paradise with the righteous of their parents, spouses (azwāj) and offspring (13:23)…… Al-Janna is not the home of ‘believing men’ only but also of ‘believing women.’ (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’; my emphases).

Consider these ʾāyāt:

‘(Prophet), do not think of those who have been killed in God’s way as dead. They are alive with their Lord, well provided for, happy with what God has given them of His favour; rejoicing that for those they have left behind who have yet to join them there is no fear, nor will they grieve; (rejoicing) in God’s blessing and favour, and that God will not let the reward of the believers be lost.’ (Sūrah ‘Al‘Imran: 167-171’).

'72 Virgins

The basis of this particular reward, with the number 72, is a hadith narrated in the Sunan of Imam Tirmidhi, in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said:

“The martyr has six unique traits: he is forgiven immediately; he sees his seat in Paradise and he is saved from the punishment of the grave; he is granted safety from the great terror [of the Day of Judgment]; a crown of honor is placed upon his head, a ruby of which is better than this life and all it contains; he is married to 72 maidens of Paradise; and he is allowed to intercede for 70 relatives.”

Notice that there is no particular emphasis in the hadith on the 72 maidens – it is one of several types of reward given to the martyr. Likewise, Muslims do not go about their day-to-day lives thinking of the maidens of Paradise; they are not obsessed with it the way they are often made out to be.

Also, it is worth mentioning that what is meant by “martyr” in the Islamic tradition is not what is commonly portrayed in Western media, namely, one who dies committing an act of terrorism – that is merely propaganda, and it is a lie. Terrorism has no place in Islam, and Islamic scholars have unequivocally condemned it in the harshest manner, time and time again.

The concept of martyrdom when understood properly is something valued by all religions and societies as noble and chivalrous, as it represents the ultimate sacrifice one can make to serve his Creator and his fellow man. In American history, for example, figures such as Patrick Henry are praised as courageous and honorable for statements such as, “Give me liberty or give me death.”'

https://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersg...aking-sense-of-one-of-the-rewards-of-paradise

From start to end, Islam is a religion that appeals to the flesh--it is spread by violence, coercion, and deception; it's all based on works; the reward for martyrs is based on the corrupt nature of man. That is one reason how I know it is false.

Another reason is to just look at Iran prior to its Islamification and compare it with now. That is what Islam leads to--the complete submission of everyone, especially women, not to Allah, but to Islam. That is precisely what we should expect from a merciless, ungracious, unloving god, from a religion made up by man.

I was a Christian for over sixty years, and well educated in the Faith. I have never met – nor read the works of – any priest; scholar; or Christian layperson who believed that the Qur’an was revealed by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Without exception, these folk believe that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was both a fraud and a liar; a man who authored the Qur’an from heretical sources, or from the Bible itself. They have a question to answer:

If the Prophet truly believed – and taught – that martyrs (violent or otherwise) are rewarded with virgins, then why is this not declared in the Qur’an?

Al‘Imran:167-171 would be the perfect location for such a declaration.

Maybe because the Qur'an we have is not the Qur'an that Muhammad gave. At least we know that how it came together was fraught with issues and inconsistencies. But, this is really a nothing burger anyway.

The question for Muslims is, since the Qur'an clearly teaches that the Bible is true, why do they believe the Qur'an when it teaches what is contradictory to the Bible, especially regarding the person of Jesus and his death, when the Qur'an came some 600 years after the NT?

As I stated previously, we see in the Qur'an that:

1. The gospel was given to Jesus
2. "People of the Gospel [Christians] judge by what Allah has revealed in it"
3. The Qur'an was given as "a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them"
4. Christians (and Jews) "have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel"
5. Muslims are to say to Christians, "We believe in . . . what was revealed to you"
6. If Muhammed (and perhaps, by extension, every Muslim) was in doubt about what the Qur'an states, he was to "then ask those who read the Scripture before you"
7. "None can change [Allah's] Words"

Yet, the Qur'an changes what "the Gospel" says. It both affirms that the Gospel and the Bible are true, yet changes what is stated, all the while claiming that "None can change [Allah's] Words." So, the Qur'an both contradicts the Bible and contradicts itself.

The Bible, and therefore Christianity, is superior in every way, especially in its teachings on who God is, who Jesus is, and Jesus's death and resurrection. The path of Islam leads to nothing but darkness, both in this life and the one to come.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I assume that you are getting those weak arguments, including the one below, from Islamic apologists. But that would be a grave error on your part. There is every reason to believe the gospel accounts over the Qur'an.

He has revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ the Book in truth, confirming what came before it, as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel (3:3)
previously, as a guide for people, and ˹also˺ revealed the Decisive Authority. Surely those who reject Allah’s revelations will suffer a severe torment. For Allah is Almighty, capable of punishment. (3:4)

Hi Fran (old friend!).

Hope you are well.

There is absolutely no requirement for a Jew (or a Christian) to embrace Islam – to become a Muslim.

The Beloved tells us: ‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

There was a point in your life where you lost the truth . The truth is still there .

7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I guess it depends on which surah of the Quran one reads.

One says to respect them because they serve the same God.

Another said they are to be charged money instead of being killed.

Another says they must be subdued...meaning killed.

The goal of Islam is to conquer the world.

With violent means if necessary.
This is why Islam grows.

Moderators Note: Islam has been introduced into this discussion as of late, and while I understand it might rightly go in that direction if permitted, the forum currently doesn't allow for discussion of other faiths, so I would ask all to keep the focus on the OP and not detract from it.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[Niblo]

Moderators Note: Islam has been introduced into this discussion as of late, and while I understand it might rightly go in that direction if permitted, the forum currently doesn't allow for discussion of other faiths, so I would ask all to keep the focus on the OP and not detract from it.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Very well said, Brother.

Please feel free to delete the following posts of mine:

211 to 213 inclusive.

Blessings.

Paul

 

[Fish153]

Allow me to correct you.

The notion that those who die as martyrs are gifted (72) virgins is a fanciful misguidance, intended to appeal to impressionable young men, who are high in testosterone, but extremely low in Islamic knowledge.

The notion is not found in the Qur’an; rather, it arises from a single ḥādīth in the collection of Jami' at-Tirmidhi; categorised by ʼaḥādīth scholars as ‘Ḍaʻīf’ (weak), due to its poor chain of narrators. In short, the ḥādīth is untrustworthy.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) says:

‘But those mindful of Allāh will be in a safe place amid Gardens and springs, clothed in silk and fine brocade, facing one another: and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes.’ (Sūrah ‘Al-Dukhan: 52-54’; my emphasis).

The text ‘and we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ translates the Arabic: ‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

Surah Al-Tur: 20 says likewise: ‘And we shall marry them to fair ones having beautiful eyes’ (‘wazawwajnāhum biḥūrin ʿīnin.’

The Arabic for a virgin (or maiden) is ‘al-adra’.

In these sūrahs, the word ‘biḥūrin’ stems from the Arabic ‘ḥūri’; a word that applies to both sexes; (being the plural of ‘awhar’ (masculine) and ‘hawra’ (feminine).

The Qur’an refers to Heaven as ‘al-janna’, meaning ‘the garden’. It is the home of the righteous, the home of Peace.

In ‘al-janna’, men shall be wed to fair companions who are female; and women to fair companions who are male.

Professor Abdel Haleem – King Fahd Professor of Islamic Studies at the SOAS University of London – writes:

‘There is no overt mention in the Qur’an of sex taking place between spouses in janna, although the relationship is lawful between spouses and the Qur’an does not shy away from mentioning it in the context of this world. The mutual love (‘uruban) between spouses in the garden (56:37–8) epitomises the most fulfilling aspect of the relationship between spouses as expressed in the Qur’an: Another of His signs is that He created spouses from among yourselves for you to live with in tranquillity: He ordained love and kindness between you (30:21).’

‘Part of God’s blessing on the righteous is that they will be joined in paradise with the righteous of their parents, spouses (azwāj) and offspring (13:23)…… Al-Janna is not the home of ‘believing men’ only but also of ‘believing women.’ (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’; my emphases).

Consider these ʾāyāt:

‘(Prophet), do not think of those who have been killed in God’s way as dead. They are alive with their Lord, well provided for, happy with what God has given them of His favour; rejoicing that for those they have left behind who have yet to join them there is no fear, nor will they grieve; (rejoicing) in God’s blessing and favour, and that God will not let the reward of the believers be lost.’ (Sūrah ‘Al‘Imran: 167-171’).

I was a Christian for over sixty years, and well educated in the Faith. I have never met – nor read the works of – any priest; scholar; or Christian layperson who believed that the Qur’an was revealed by Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

Without exception, these folk believe that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) was both a fraud and a liar; a man who authored the Qur’an from heretical sources, or from the Bible itself. They have a question to answer:

If the Prophet truly believed – and taught – that martyrs (violent or otherwise) are rewarded with virgins, then why is this not declared in the Qur’an?

Al‘Imran:167-171 would be the perfect location for such a declaration.

Blessings

Let me re-phrase then. The people who flew planes into the World Trade Center were not "martyrs" though they are applauded as such in their homelands. I strongly suspect that those men were willing to die due to being offered virgins (72) in the next life, and their families taken care of in this life. They were not dying for Allah even though they shouted "Allah Akbar!" A true martyr are like those Christians in Nigeria and Kenya who are being murdered and having their homes burned down simply because they believe in Jesus. That is a martyr---not some bomb wearing muslim who kills 20 people at a mosque along with himself. There is a big difference between what a martyr is viewed by Muslims, and what a martyr is as viewed by Christians. Peter was a martyr--he died because he could NOT DENY the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He SAW him after he raised from the dead. How could he DENY that? But he died to bring glory to Jesus--not for some fleshly reward promised after death, or recompense in THIS life. What did Peter gain by dying for Christ?