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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Weaknesses of Amillenianism
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
F
FisherOfMen
Guest
That's the belief that Christ's Millenial Kingdom is already happenning, right? I'd like to see some biblical proof of that.
C
City Of God
Guest
FisherOfMen said:
LOL,
I'd like to see some proof that there is such a thing as a "millennial kingdom".
C
City Of God
Guest
Hello Jason,
what specifically would you like to know about the amil belief? As you have studied out you have probably found that it is the belief of the reformers and up through the beginnings of the great awakening that was held concerning the "thousand year reign". I am sure you have discovered that the word millennium is no where to be found in scripture but is latin meaning "one thousand". Herein is the problem as the greek word used for "thousand" in the Revelation passage does not denote "1 thousand" but is more likely representative of thousands. Pre-millennialism along with its counter parts, pre-tribulation rapture, 7 year jewish tribulation etc. are new beliefs that have crept in only over the past couple hundred years. I guess a starting point for the amil belief really lyes in a correct understanding of the greek used for thousand in the Revelation passage. Chililio which is used for thousand does not denote "1 thousand" as millennialists would have you believe, but rather is a plural of uncertain affinity that may very well denote a period of time thousands of years in duration.
what specifically would you like to know about the amil belief? As you have studied out you have probably found that it is the belief of the reformers and up through the beginnings of the great awakening that was held concerning the "thousand year reign". I am sure you have discovered that the word millennium is no where to be found in scripture but is latin meaning "one thousand". Herein is the problem as the greek word used for "thousand" in the Revelation passage does not denote "1 thousand" but is more likely representative of thousands. Pre-millennialism along with its counter parts, pre-tribulation rapture, 7 year jewish tribulation etc. are new beliefs that have crept in only over the past couple hundred years. I guess a starting point for the amil belief really lyes in a correct understanding of the greek used for thousand in the Revelation passage. Chililio which is used for thousand does not denote "1 thousand" as millennialists would have you believe, but rather is a plural of uncertain affinity that may very well denote a period of time thousands of years in duration.
G
Green^Horn
Guest
well said COG
C
City Of God
Guest
:-D Hello Green^Horn, :-D
C
City Of God
Guest
A CASE FOR AMILLENNIALISM
Dr. Kim Riddlebarger
ARMAGEDDON AND THE PEACEABLE KINGDOM
Walter Klaassen
THE KINGDOM OF THE BRIDE
Martin Bachicha
Christ's spiritual kingdom: A defense of Reformed amillennialism
David Engelsma
Amillennialism Today
by William E. Cox
Dr. Kim Riddlebarger
ARMAGEDDON AND THE PEACEABLE KINGDOM
Walter Klaassen
THE KINGDOM OF THE BRIDE
Martin Bachicha
Christ's spiritual kingdom: A defense of Reformed amillennialism
David Engelsma
Amillennialism Today
by William E. Cox
C
Cameron
Guest
I love it whe I see this argument. Let's put it to the test.
Rev 14:20 And2532 the3588 winepress3025 was trodden3961 without1854 the3588 city,4172 and2532 blood129 came1831 out of1537 the3588 winepress,3025 even unto891 the3588 horse2462 bridles,5469 by the space of575 a thousand and six hundred5507, 1812 furlongs.4712
(the numbers are Strong's Greek numbers)
so 1,600 furlong is an ambiguous number. Why is it so specific?
When it is a space it is specific? When of time not?
Rev 12:6 And2532 the3588 woman1135 fled5343 into1519 the3588 wilderness,2048 where3699 she hath2192 a place5117 prepared2090 of575 God,2316 that2443 they should feed5142 her846 there1563 a thousand two hundred and threescore5507, 1250, 1835 days.2250
Whoops, it's used of a specific time period too. 1260 days seems kind of specifc for a ambiguous period of time.
So far the argument fails in the Biblical context. it may be true that the Greek lexicons point to a 1000 as a "big" number, but in the Biblical context it is found wanting in my estimation.
Amill's claim that a 1,000 is not a thousand in Rev. 20 even though it is probably the most repeated number with in the fewest words in all of Scripture 20:2,3,4,5,6,7. That's a lot of reapeating of an ambiguous number.
And yes, I'm familiar with Amill thinking, Funny thing is that the early Church leaders, those who lived with the Apostles and carried the torch were not amill. They were futurist/premill either post-trib or prewrath in thinking. Barnabas clearly taught the 1000 year Millennium. Papias, is quoted as speaking about it. But what do these guys know. They only knew Paul and John and Peter and the others, they weren't them.
OK - so I'm a little sarcastic. We all ready the Bible and modern day Christian authors and leaders, but not many of us read the early leaders. The best thing about it is that their writings and epistles are free. http://www.e-sword.net and download the Ante-nicean fathers module.
Some Amills love to rail agains these early church fathers and accuse them of using "sub-christian" sources. I suppose that makes them feel better intellectually or superior for premills accusing amills of gnostic influences of the spirit over the physical. In premill you can still believe in the spiritual realities and look to the physical realities.
Premill also follows the pattern of the Christian life where amill does not.
The christian life: Born in sin - one day Christ invades your heart - He reigns over your life (positionally right, practically fallen) - and then you die and are glorified.
Premill: World is corrupt - one day Christ invades - He reigns over the earth (world is positionally right, still practically fallen) - and then is fades away before God's Presence to be glorifed as a New heavens and Earth.
G
Georges
Guest
I don't know if this has been mentioned in the thread but,
The biggest problem with Amillennialism is the rebirth of national Israel. At the time when the "Amill" concept was formed, there was no kingdom or nation of Israel. Israel had been destroyed. Therefore, Christian theologians had to come up with another explanation for "end time" Israel.
I think the early theologians thinking may have been along these lines.....
Since there is no Israel in existence, and as historically proven, up until this time there has never been a nation to vanish and reappear, then obviously the Israel of the future is the Christian Church.
Then came the rebirth of Israel......now what? Amillers have to somehow get around that "White Elephant" that sticks out like a sore thumb. Christianity for 1700 years have thought they were the spiritual nation of Israel (or at least the national Israel of the future). Now that Israel is back as a nation.....an literal 1000 year millennial kingdom period is not so far fetched.
Just a thought....
To get around the "white elephant", I've laughlingly heard some Amiller's claim that the present nation of Israel isn't really made up of the descendents of Jacob but are a mixed breed of humanity......how absured is that?
The biggest problem with Amillennialism is the rebirth of national Israel. At the time when the "Amill" concept was formed, there was no kingdom or nation of Israel. Israel had been destroyed. Therefore, Christian theologians had to come up with another explanation for "end time" Israel.
I think the early theologians thinking may have been along these lines.....
Since there is no Israel in existence, and as historically proven, up until this time there has never been a nation to vanish and reappear, then obviously the Israel of the future is the Christian Church.
Then came the rebirth of Israel......now what? Amillers have to somehow get around that "White Elephant" that sticks out like a sore thumb. Christianity for 1700 years have thought they were the spiritual nation of Israel (or at least the national Israel of the future). Now that Israel is back as a nation.....an literal 1000 year millennial kingdom period is not so far fetched.
Just a thought....
To get around the "white elephant", I've laughlingly heard some Amiller's claim that the present nation of Israel isn't really made up of the descendents of Jacob but are a mixed breed of humanity......how absured is that?
G
Georges
Guest
Jason, I'm not sure what you are getting at in the post....are you defending Amillennialism by saying that the resurrections are spiritual and not physical?
Israel has just resurrected as a physical nation or, it is the precursor of the nation that Messiah will be the leader of in the future.
In regard to Rev 20 and your post link....
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
This is only proof needed that presently we are not in the Millennium. Satan still has obvious influence over the world and yes...even Christians.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This verse is people specific.....that is one group, and only one group of people are focused upon in this verse....." the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand"....There hasn't been a Beast yet, no mark of the beast yet, no people being executed for not taking the mark of the beast yet....Since this verse happens "post" return of Christ, it clearly indicates that the tribulation martyrs will be resurrected to reign with Christ during his millennial kingdom.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Who are the rest of the dead?.....again it is people specific. Since this verse follows on the heels of the other, it can only mean those who had received the mark and since it doesn't mention a specific group you can also include the wicked dead through out history. The "first resurrection" is not the dead in the beginning of verse 5. In the Greek NT, there are no verse distinctions....no literal numbers indicating thought breaks. It is read as an uninterrupted paragraph. Doing that it is clear the "first resurrection" pertains to the tribulation martyrs.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: (beginning of the messianic millennium) over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
The resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 are only Millennium related...Those who are Tribulation Martyrs (First Ress), and the Wicked Dead (Second Ress), separated by a period of 1000 years.....
very simple....
Israel has just resurrected as a physical nation or, it is the precursor of the nation that Messiah will be the leader of in the future.
In regard to Rev 20 and your post link....
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut [it], and sealed [it] over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
This is only proof needed that presently we are not in the Millennium. Satan still has obvious influence over the world and yes...even Christians.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This verse is people specific.....that is one group, and only one group of people are focused upon in this verse....." the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand"....There hasn't been a Beast yet, no mark of the beast yet, no people being executed for not taking the mark of the beast yet....Since this verse happens "post" return of Christ, it clearly indicates that the tribulation martyrs will be resurrected to reign with Christ during his millennial kingdom.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Who are the rest of the dead?.....again it is people specific. Since this verse follows on the heels of the other, it can only mean those who had received the mark and since it doesn't mention a specific group you can also include the wicked dead through out history. The "first resurrection" is not the dead in the beginning of verse 5. In the Greek NT, there are no verse distinctions....no literal numbers indicating thought breaks. It is read as an uninterrupted paragraph. Doing that it is clear the "first resurrection" pertains to the tribulation martyrs.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: (beginning of the messianic millennium) over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
The resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 are only Millennium related...Those who are Tribulation Martyrs (First Ress), and the Wicked Dead (Second Ress), separated by a period of 1000 years.....
very simple....
:
K
kerravon
Guest
Who needs biblical proof? Use your own brain. The new kingdom is based on nations becoming anti-subjugators or non-subjugators and then joining together in defence against potential subjugators. This is exactly what NATO is. You can see a map of the free world on the left-hand side of my web site - http://www.antisubjugator.blogspot.comFisherOfMen said:
Converting dictators to non-subjugators is easy, except for China and maybe North Korea. The rest are tinpot countries easy to topple. Even easier than Afghanistan. All that is required is political will.