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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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handy
Member
To me, its far more about what someone does with their wealth. We knew this guy, he's passed away now, who was a multi-millionaire. He lived in a nice house, he drove nice cars, he dressed in nice clothes.
According to some here, he wasn't a Christian.
Well, don't be so quick to judge...he actually lived on about 10% of his income and gave away 90% of his income to help the poor. Most of the way he spent money on the poor was to not only meet immediate needs such as food, clothing and housing, but he also set up educational programs so that the folks could better themselves. Now, we knew he did this, because we knew him personally, but most folks didn't know this about him. The impression was that he was a moderately wealthy guy, not exceedingly wealthy, but more than comfortable.
He was a Christian. He most certainly believed in Christ, he had a phenomenal testimony and his life bore the kind of fruit that shows a true believer.
We all need to be givers. Some of us don't have a lot of monetary wealth, so we must give what we can. Others that have monetary wealth can give more. But, I don't think there is a text anywhere that gives us the right to judge another's heart as to what they give or don't give, especially when we aren't necessarily privvy to exactly how much someone might give.
When Ananias was confronted by Peter with his sin, Peter made it clear that the sin was not that Ananias didn't give all that he had, but that he was being deceptive, saying that he was giving all when in fact he wasn't. To this, Peter said, "Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal?" There was nothing about it being the money itself that was sinful, it was the lying.
According to some here, he wasn't a Christian.
Well, don't be so quick to judge...he actually lived on about 10% of his income and gave away 90% of his income to help the poor. Most of the way he spent money on the poor was to not only meet immediate needs such as food, clothing and housing, but he also set up educational programs so that the folks could better themselves. Now, we knew he did this, because we knew him personally, but most folks didn't know this about him. The impression was that he was a moderately wealthy guy, not exceedingly wealthy, but more than comfortable.
He was a Christian. He most certainly believed in Christ, he had a phenomenal testimony and his life bore the kind of fruit that shows a true believer.
We all need to be givers. Some of us don't have a lot of monetary wealth, so we must give what we can. Others that have monetary wealth can give more. But, I don't think there is a text anywhere that gives us the right to judge another's heart as to what they give or don't give, especially when we aren't necessarily privvy to exactly how much someone might give.
When Ananias was confronted by Peter with his sin, Peter made it clear that the sin was not that Ananias didn't give all that he had, but that he was being deceptive, saying that he was giving all when in fact he wasn't. To this, Peter said, "Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal?" There was nothing about it being the money itself that was sinful, it was the lying.
Pard
Member
Coffee,
No need for me to "travel around our great nation" to see poverty. I live just outside of Hartford, CT. New Haven is just a little ways down the highway. The ghettos in Hartford are pretty poverty stricken. Now I did over emphasis my point, and looking back I do recall meaning to fix that and I guess I forgot to. There are places in America that are surely as poor as some of the places in those "for the price of a cup of coffee" ads. That was hardly my point, and I sure hope you did not miss my point!
Your statement about rich not being able to be Christian was my point. By your statement I surely doubt even you could be a Christian, for you have a computer and internet. I just don't think we can make such a sweeping statement, as you did. We ought to not judge at all, but if we feel that we must, at least judge on a case by case basis.
Like handy said, there are plenty of people who are very rich and give lots. I live in a rich neighborhood (so you know, we got a house here because our house was in need of SERIOUS repairs!). Most of my neighbors live in that "top 1%". The guy across from me owned a Dodge Viper, until he sold it and bought a Audi R8. The guy up the street has two Porsches. A guy next to him buys a new BMW every year. They are all very rich, but none of them are "evil" and "greedy".
The guy with the Porsches owns a cleaning company. He pays his son's expenses so that his son can travel around the world providing medical aid to people who could not afford it (and when I mean expenses, I mean this guy buys all the medicine for the people). He donates his cleaning products to people who wish to start their own cleaning company. His Porsche is always parked at the food bank (well in the town hall parking lot) and he is always giving.
The guy with the Audi R8 works for 3M. He is an engineer and he designs the reflective tape. His wife is a bio-chemist and she works at some drug maker, like Pfizer. They go to church three times a week (Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday). They donate their time to building houses for people. He works with the Habitat for Humanity group (he is also a licensed electrician and plumber). His wife started a group in her work that gets really cheap drugs and goes into Hartford and gives them to people who could not afford them.
The guy with the BMWs is a counselor. He is actually a Christian counselor. He owns a clinic where he counsels couples and such. He also opens his doors twice a week to anyone who needs counseling but cannot afford it. He takes Vets., homeless, ect.. On his weekends he goes around to the tent cities in our area (and there are a lot of them) and distributes Bibles to anyone who would like one (he buys them himself, and at 15$ a pop that is nothing to scoff at). I have gone with him before (boy that new M3 is SWEEEET!) to hand out Bibles. Those people are the happiest people in the world when they get a new Bible to read. There is something to be said for someone who can bring such happiness to a man.
I could list at least a dozen more people like these three. All of them are church-going Christians and all of them are rich. and all of them would not be considered Christians if you, Coffee, were to see them cruising in their cars. They do more work that glorifies God than most "not-rich" people I know. Actually, the "normal" income people I know who are Christians are less like Christians than the rich ones!
God gives people riches, if He sees fit. It is hardly our charge in life to condemn them for the gifts of God! God judges what is on the heart and not the possessions of this physical world.
I dare say, if you were to look at my family you would not think we were Christians either! We have two houses and we own more than we need. Surely we give what God gives us! I help at my church whenever I can (and this is all I really can do, I don't work). I help in other ways where I can. Last week we went door to door (my sister, our youth group, and I) sharing the Good news. We rent out second house out (this is how we pay for it. It was a gift, so we just pay taxes and upkeep). We give week slots in our house away to pastors and ministers who need a place to retreat too (saves them 3000$). My dad is retired and he spends every day volunteering for the town because they do not have enough money to hire people. We works with the fire department and is on call 24/7. He is the head of the search and rescue team for the tri-town area as well as head of our emergency team. My mom is one of the most loving and giving people I know. She works full time as a nurse. She works the night shifts. I have been around when she is working, no one loves those people any more than here. When someone dies she goes to their funeral, even if she only took their blood. She is always running to the gift store in the hospital to buy someone a gift.
Surely we do not look like a Christian family, to you Coffee, but I know full well that we are.
No need for me to "travel around our great nation" to see poverty. I live just outside of Hartford, CT. New Haven is just a little ways down the highway. The ghettos in Hartford are pretty poverty stricken. Now I did over emphasis my point, and looking back I do recall meaning to fix that and I guess I forgot to. There are places in America that are surely as poor as some of the places in those "for the price of a cup of coffee" ads. That was hardly my point, and I sure hope you did not miss my point!
Your statement about rich not being able to be Christian was my point. By your statement I surely doubt even you could be a Christian, for you have a computer and internet. I just don't think we can make such a sweeping statement, as you did. We ought to not judge at all, but if we feel that we must, at least judge on a case by case basis.
Like handy said, there are plenty of people who are very rich and give lots. I live in a rich neighborhood (so you know, we got a house here because our house was in need of SERIOUS repairs!). Most of my neighbors live in that "top 1%". The guy across from me owned a Dodge Viper, until he sold it and bought a Audi R8. The guy up the street has two Porsches. A guy next to him buys a new BMW every year. They are all very rich, but none of them are "evil" and "greedy".
The guy with the Porsches owns a cleaning company. He pays his son's expenses so that his son can travel around the world providing medical aid to people who could not afford it (and when I mean expenses, I mean this guy buys all the medicine for the people). He donates his cleaning products to people who wish to start their own cleaning company. His Porsche is always parked at the food bank (well in the town hall parking lot) and he is always giving.
The guy with the Audi R8 works for 3M. He is an engineer and he designs the reflective tape. His wife is a bio-chemist and she works at some drug maker, like Pfizer. They go to church three times a week (Sunday, Wednesday, and Friday). They donate their time to building houses for people. He works with the Habitat for Humanity group (he is also a licensed electrician and plumber). His wife started a group in her work that gets really cheap drugs and goes into Hartford and gives them to people who could not afford them.
The guy with the BMWs is a counselor. He is actually a Christian counselor. He owns a clinic where he counsels couples and such. He also opens his doors twice a week to anyone who needs counseling but cannot afford it. He takes Vets., homeless, ect.. On his weekends he goes around to the tent cities in our area (and there are a lot of them) and distributes Bibles to anyone who would like one (he buys them himself, and at 15$ a pop that is nothing to scoff at). I have gone with him before (boy that new M3 is SWEEEET!) to hand out Bibles. Those people are the happiest people in the world when they get a new Bible to read. There is something to be said for someone who can bring such happiness to a man.
I could list at least a dozen more people like these three. All of them are church-going Christians and all of them are rich. and all of them would not be considered Christians if you, Coffee, were to see them cruising in their cars. They do more work that glorifies God than most "not-rich" people I know. Actually, the "normal" income people I know who are Christians are less like Christians than the rich ones!
God gives people riches, if He sees fit. It is hardly our charge in life to condemn them for the gifts of God! God judges what is on the heart and not the possessions of this physical world.
I dare say, if you were to look at my family you would not think we were Christians either! We have two houses and we own more than we need. Surely we give what God gives us! I help at my church whenever I can (and this is all I really can do, I don't work). I help in other ways where I can. Last week we went door to door (my sister, our youth group, and I) sharing the Good news. We rent out second house out (this is how we pay for it. It was a gift, so we just pay taxes and upkeep). We give week slots in our house away to pastors and ministers who need a place to retreat too (saves them 3000$). My dad is retired and he spends every day volunteering for the town because they do not have enough money to hire people. We works with the fire department and is on call 24/7. He is the head of the search and rescue team for the tri-town area as well as head of our emergency team. My mom is one of the most loving and giving people I know. She works full time as a nurse. She works the night shifts. I have been around when she is working, no one loves those people any more than here. When someone dies she goes to their funeral, even if she only took their blood. She is always running to the gift store in the hospital to buy someone a gift.
Surely we do not look like a Christian family, to you Coffee, but I know full well that we are.
Vic C.
Member
No need to apologize. We have a good percentage of people in the US who are insulated from this sort of low standard of living and that's taking into consideration the many areas in the US where life well below the poverty line.l'Chante said:You know what, Dukey? You’re right. I really shouldn’t be this way. It’s just hard to look in the eyes of people who haven’t eaten in three days (over weekends when I do my charity work) and then listen to people talking about spending money on luxury items on a Monday. I’m sorry.
2 People don't want to know because then they won't have to "deal" with it.We have "I" mania in the States. It's IPod this, or IPhone that or whatever flavor Apple is dishing out these days.
That's just the tip of the iceberg too.It counts for two things in my eyes; it shows he and Melinda are good humanitarians and it really shows me God uses whomever HE chooses to do HIS will.
I don't know Bill's position on God and Jesus; I can only assume certain things based on what he says, or more importantly, what he doesn't say.
Mike
Member
coffeelover said:
There's been a lot of follow up since you posted this response that is well said by others. I wanted to bring an example that might prove your blanket statement wrong. A while ago, I read an article about a woman who was living near poverty. She had a run-down 1 bedroom home and never had anything of much value; never did she travel extravagantly. She died in her 80's as I recall, and it was only then that anyone knew of her massive wealth, because in her will she gave all her inheritance to the tune of millions and millions of dollars to private college that was across the street from her. If my memory serves me, she was a Christian, and the college was a Christian school. Yes, this is only one case, but it does demonstrate that a person CAN be a wealthy Christian.
If a person is outrageously wealthy, and they give huge sums of money (as Bill Gates was brought up above), how much do they have to give away before you honor their stated faith. I don't believe BG even claims to be a Christian, but I'm using him as an example. If a person is worth, say 5 billion dollars, and they donate 2b of it, are they still unable to call themselves a Christian by your standards?
I agree that it would be VERY difficult to maintain one's priorities and dependence on God to sustain a person who is wealthy. They would find it hard not to feel self-sufficient, but I believe it can be done. It all comes down to their obsession with it. If they're never happy unless their net value is increasing, they have a problem. But if they are generous with what they've been given, and they do not live and die with their net worth but take a carefree approach to it, I couldn't question where their heart is. I wouldn't question where anyone's heart is unless their sinful lifestyle dictated something was missing or they said so themselves.
Pard
Member
Mike just brought up the best point of all.
The judgment of a wealthy Christian is not gonna be on HOW MUCH they gave away. Their judgment, lik EVERYONE elses judgment is going to be on their faith and devotion to Jesus Christ.
The Bible speaks about how it is harder to get to Heaven as a rich person than to get a camel through the head of a needle. Honestly, this is not saying that wealthy people cannot get to Heaven. It is saying that those who make earthly possessions their world will no go to Heaven, and this is more likely to happen in a rich man than in a poor one.
When you look at a rich person you sometimes can't help but think, "Man, they got it all!" Sorry, but if they do not have God, they are as poor as anyone else. :yes
If they make wealth their idol, than they will not be gettin' to Heaven anytime soon. Just as the man who makes the bottom of a glass his idol. So long as they fill the hole in their hearts with Jesus rather than money or an other earthly thing it does not matter how wealthy they are.
The judgment of a wealthy Christian is not gonna be on HOW MUCH they gave away. Their judgment, lik EVERYONE elses judgment is going to be on their faith and devotion to Jesus Christ.
The Bible speaks about how it is harder to get to Heaven as a rich person than to get a camel through the head of a needle. Honestly, this is not saying that wealthy people cannot get to Heaven. It is saying that those who make earthly possessions their world will no go to Heaven, and this is more likely to happen in a rich man than in a poor one.
When you look at a rich person you sometimes can't help but think, "Man, they got it all!" Sorry, but if they do not have God, they are as poor as anyone else. :yes
If they make wealth their idol, than they will not be gettin' to Heaven anytime soon. Just as the man who makes the bottom of a glass his idol. So long as they fill the hole in their hearts with Jesus rather than money or an other earthly thing it does not matter how wealthy they are.
G
GojuBrian
Guest
Where did I say I did not give money to the needy or the poor in starving countries?l'Chante said:
Are you telling us you have nothing of value?
Why do you keep calling Jason Dukey?
C
coffeelover
Guest
Vic C. said:Topic unlocked.
totopic
Thanks for unlocking the topic. I didn't get to see what brought on the lock, but I don't really want to anyhow.
We should always treat each other with respect please.
Pard
Member
coffeelover said:Vic C. said:Topic unlocked.
Thanks for unlocking the topic. I didn't get to see what brought on the lock, but I don't really want to anyhow.
We should always treat each other with respect please.
Yes, I have a curious side that would like to know, but I s'posse it's best left buried.
Now, Coffee, if you don't mind reading my last two posts, I think they made some good sense (especially the last one).
1. I wouldn't say that Jesus' not being wealthy was necessarily an example for us to follow.coffeelover said:
2. If one is rich it does not necessarily mean that one is holding on to money for the sake of money.
3. Jesus told a parable in which we are to invest what God gives us so that we have more than when he comes back.
4. All money belongs to God and if he chooses some Christians to be wealthy, then who are we to say otherwise?
5. You are on the one hand saying a Christian can live a "reasonable" (subjective term) life but it is not okay for a Christian to be "rich" (again, a subjective term). I'm curious as to what criteria or standard you use in determining the difference between living reasonably and being rich? At what point would one go from living reasonably to being wealthy, or vice-versa?
People here seem to be touting Bill Gates and his followers of what to do with money (despite not really knowing where all his money goes), yet for all he gives, he still will be wealthier than most people.
Being rich in itself is not a sinful way of living, but I think that as one becomes rich it becomes harder to let go of those riches. I'm not saying that's the case for everyone but in general. I noticed that the verse about it being easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a need than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven has been referenced a few times throughout this topic, but the previous scenario leading up to that hasn't been mentioned. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything he had and give it to the poor then come and follow Him. When he walked away sad Jesus remarked on how hard it was for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. I don't think Jesus was saying that everyone has to give away everything they have to receive salvation, because it is by grace through faith that we are saved; however, I believe that we do need to examine our lives and ask ourselves if Jesus told us to sell everything we have and give it away would we? If we have truly confessed Jesus as our Lord and do have faith, then we have to be willing to give up everything, including our money, for Him if that's what He leads us to do. In saying that, we should not just not pray to God about our finances and say to ourselves, "well if God tells me to give away money I will but I'm not going to ask Him about it." Instead, I believe we should be seeking God in our finances and asking Him how much we should give away. We should be looking for opportunities to give away our money and time and praying about it on a daily basis.
Once again, I don't think Jesus is going to tell everyone to give everything away, but I also don't think He is going to be mad at us for giving away too much. I mean look at the passage in Luke 12. Jesus tells us not to worry about what we will eat drink or wear. He says that if we seek His kingdom and all of these things will be given to us. He then goes on to say, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. If we look at this passage as a whole it seems to tell us that one major way we seek the kingdom of God is to sell what we have and give to the poor, and if we do this God will provide all of our needs for us.
It seems that in America quite a few Christians and non Christians both seem to always be saving for a bigger house, or a newer car, or the new iphone. Those things aren't necessarily bad and it's not necessarily bad to have a few luxury items, but I don't believe that we should constantly save to constantly upgrade. Look at the parable in Luke 12:16-21. "16And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.' 18"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." '20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' 21"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."" How many Christians in America are guilty of living this type of lifestyle? I know I have been for most of my life so far, and am just now starting to try to change that.
I'm sorry this post is so long but its something that God has been convicting me of this last month and so I have a lot on my heart regarding this issue. Let's look at one last passage in Acts 2. "And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. (Acts 2:44-45)" How great would it be if our churches in the States today functioned like this. It seems like Communism, which I do not agree with, but it is not Communism in that everyone is willing to work and has a desire to better those around them. It is the true definition of love in action.
Once again, sorry for such a long post. Ultimately I do not think it is our place to judge those around us who are better off then us. That is between them and God. We just need to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and be open to sell our possessions and give them away as we are led to do so.
Once again, I don't think Jesus is going to tell everyone to give everything away, but I also don't think He is going to be mad at us for giving away too much. I mean look at the passage in Luke 12. Jesus tells us not to worry about what we will eat drink or wear. He says that if we seek His kingdom and all of these things will be given to us. He then goes on to say, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. If we look at this passage as a whole it seems to tell us that one major way we seek the kingdom of God is to sell what we have and give to the poor, and if we do this God will provide all of our needs for us.
It seems that in America quite a few Christians and non Christians both seem to always be saving for a bigger house, or a newer car, or the new iphone. Those things aren't necessarily bad and it's not necessarily bad to have a few luxury items, but I don't believe that we should constantly save to constantly upgrade. Look at the parable in Luke 12:16-21. "16And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.' 18"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." '20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' 21"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."" How many Christians in America are guilty of living this type of lifestyle? I know I have been for most of my life so far, and am just now starting to try to change that.
I'm sorry this post is so long but its something that God has been convicting me of this last month and so I have a lot on my heart regarding this issue. Let's look at one last passage in Acts 2. "And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. (Acts 2:44-45)" How great would it be if our churches in the States today functioned like this. It seems like Communism, which I do not agree with, but it is not Communism in that everyone is willing to work and has a desire to better those around them. It is the true definition of love in action.
Once again, sorry for such a long post. Ultimately I do not think it is our place to judge those around us who are better off then us. That is between them and God. We just need to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and be open to sell our possessions and give them away as we are led to do so.