Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Were these accidents?

Heidi

Member
Do people who believe in free will think these were accidents:

1) That Christ was sacrificed during the passover
2) That the disciples all abandoned Jesus at the cross
3) That Judas betrayed Jesus
4) That Pilate handed Jesus over to the Jews
5) That the temple was destroyed in 70 a.d.
6) That the Jews have been persecuted since the death of Christ
7) That Israel became a state in 1948
8) That Jesus fulfilled prophesy
9) That Jesus was killed at all
10) That Paul became a disciple
11) That people received theHoly Spirit at pentecost
12) That there were 12 tribes of Israel
13) That Joseph had 11 brothers & Jesus had 11 disciples and one traitor
14) That Jerusalem has been occupied by non-Jews since Christ
15) That Ishmael & his descendants have always been hostile to the Jews
16) That Adam was the first-born of the flesh and Jesus was the first-born of the Spirit
17) That the flood foreshadowed & signified baptism
18) That Melchidizek appeared in the bible
19) That Eve sinned and was thus ordained to become subservient to man & was also created as a helper to man
20) That Jesus "decided" to die for our sins instead of fight his way out of a tough situation
21) Jewish weddings compared to the brides of Christ who are his chosen
22) That the Jews disobeyed God so God could open up salvation to all
23) That Pharoah's heart was hardened
24) That bankruptcies were cancelled after 7 years relating to the 7th day Sabbath-rest who is Jesus Christ who cancelled our debts
25) That God rested on the seventh day pointing to rest for the people of God through Jesus Christ when we rest from our own works

And on and on and on and on and on and on. So sorry folks, nothing has been an accident. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father."

So does man have free will? Hardly. God has every single detail of his plan for creation worked out right down to the numbers of hairs on our heads. We were knit by Him in the womb, some created for noble purposes, others created for common use. So no indeed, man cannot altar one iota of God's plan. It's all being worked out the way he wants it to. "The Lord works everything out for His own ends-even the wicked for a day of disaster. People who believe in free will don't seem to believe that verse either. ;-)
 
Do I believe that these things were unexpected by God?

No. God knows all.

Do I believe that these things were unintended by God?

No. God works through all.

Do I still believe in free will.

Yes. I think God sacrifices His intentions and allows our intentions to rule our life sometimes.

But, amazingly, even though that is allowed, He somehow works through and despite our bad intentions and makes good out of them. It's amazing how Love works!

That's the whole story of the cross right? God took everyones complete rejection of Him, and turned it into the very thing that saves us! Amazing!

It boggles my mind anyways... in a good way :wink:
 
Veritas said:
Do I believe that these things were unexpected by God?

No. God knows all.

Do I believe that these things were unintended by God?

No. God works through all.

Do I still believe in free will.

Yes. I think God sacrifices His intentions and allows our intentions to rule our life sometimes.

But, amazingly, even though that is allowed, He somehow works through and despite our bad intentions and makes good out of them. It's amazing how Love works!

That's the whole story of the cross right? God took everyones complete rejection of Him, and turned it into the very thing that saves us! Amazing!

It boggles my mind anyways... in a good way :wink:

No, it's not amazing at all because he makes things go the way he wants to. He hardens hearts and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. He empowers believers with the Holy Spirit which is stronger than human will or the devil.

John 14:28, "The words are say to you are not my own. Rather it is the Father living in me that is doing the work."

Philippians 2:1, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." It's right there, friend. No one's will is stronger than God's will. :)

So people can believe whatever they want. But if it contradicts scripture, it's not the truth. Habits die hard and the secular world believes in free will. So humans are used to thinking that they run the universe because we hear it all over the secular world. But not in the bible. :)
 
Heidi, we agree that no ones will is stronger than God's will. We differ in that I believe sometimes God's will is to let us choose. Through our actions He then works for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8).

Doesn't God tell Moses that he should have made it to the promised land, but he messed up. To me this implies God wanted him not to mess up, but knew he would. God didn't make Moses mess up. Surely this is an example when God wanted another outcome but because He didn't create a world of robots it turned out another way.
 
Heidi - who is typing your posts? You or God?

How do you decide what words to write? Are you suggesting that your ever word was dictated to you by God?
 
dancing queen said:
Heidi, we agree that no ones will is stronger than God's will. We differ in that I believe sometimes God's will is to let us choose. Through our actions He then works for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8).

Doesn't God tell Moses that he should have made it to the promised land, but he messed up. To me this implies God wanted him not to mess up, but knew he would. God didn't make Moses mess up. Surely this is an example when God wanted another outcome but because He didn't create a world of robots it turned out another way.

If Moses didn't mess up then he would have entered the promised land and changed God's plan. God hardens hearts, Dancing, as scripture says. God isn't just omniscient, he is also omnipotent. That means that he is actively involved in people's lives. He changes hearts and minds like he did mine. And the times when he lets us alone are also in his plan. Read 1 Corinthians 5:5 to see what Paul recommended the congregation do to the immoral brother. We are either ruled by Satan or God. That's how he disciplines us. None of us is above Satan or God. So nothing happens to us by chance and it's not simply foreknowledge on God's part. :lol: People give themselves a lot more credit and diminish God's credit. That's pride for ya. :roll:
 
Heidi, . . . did God decide to cause my ex wife to turn her back on Him, and on her husband? :-?
 
Heidi said:
If Moses didn't mess up then he would have entered the promised land and changed God's plan. God hardens hearts, Dancing, as scripture says. God isn't just omniscient, he is also omnipotent. That means that he is actively involved in people's lives. He changes hearts and minds like he did mine. And the times when he lets us alone are also in his plan. Read 1 Corinthians 5:5 to see what Paul recommended the congregation do to the immoral brother. We are either ruled by Satan or God. That's how he disciplines us. None of us is above Satan or God. So nothing happens to us by chance and it's not simply foreknowledge on God's part. :lol: People give themselves a lot more credit and diminish God's credit. That's pride for ya. :roll:

I do not want this to stray of the OP - however, you mentioned 1 Cor. 5:5 - I am not exactly sure what you meant by using this verse, however, read the verse carefully and you will see that it is the "flesh" that is being turned over to Satan - not the Spirit. "for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

This is a brother, who will be in 'heaven' but not have many (if any) rewards.
 
I agree that He is actively involved in people's lives. And I believe He can harden hearts etc due to being all powerful.

I don't believe in luck or chance, and I cannot believe that God made a world of robots.

As for not giving God credit - I do. However, I do not give Him credit for my sin, nor do I blame Satan. God doesn't cause me to mess up, and Satan may tempt me but he has no power to make me. So surely that must be free will, no?
 
dancing queen said:
I agree that He is actively involved in people's lives. And I believe He can harden hearts etc due to being all powerful.

I don't believe in luck or chance, and I cannot believe that God made a world of robots.

As for not giving God credit - I do. However, I do not give Him credit for my sin, nor do I blame Satan. God doesn't cause me to mess up, and Satan may tempt me but he has no power to make me. So surely that must be free will, no?

dancing queen - I would say that is of our 'will' but that our will is not 'free'.

Our will has limitations
 
dancing queen said:
I agree that He is actively involved in people's lives. And I believe He can harden hearts etc due to being all powerful.

I don't believe in luck or chance, and I cannot believe that God made a world of robots.

As for not giving God credit - I do. However, I do not give Him credit for my sin, nor do I blame Satan. God doesn't cause me to mess up, and Satan may tempt me but he has no power to make me. So surely that must be free will, no?

Again, being a robot is complete and total surrender to God. There is no resistance and no rebellion against him. Just, "I am yours." :)

So we are absolutely instruments of thy will. An instrument is a tool that someone uses for his purposes. And that is who we humans are. Ony God is sovereign. The bible is about glorifying God, not glorifying man. So only God's power is shown in the workings of the universe. Both his love and his wrath as Romans 1:18-31 tells us. And glorifying God is what life ias all about, not glorifying man. That's scriptural. :)

But human wisdom says the opposite. Human wisdom says, "A loving God woudn't punish people for eternity" just like a child says "A loving parent wouldn't punish me." :lol: That just shows how foolish and self-serving human wisdom is. So we humans aren't qualified to jduge what a loving God would do because too many of our own interests are at stake. ;-)
 
Heidi said:
No, it's not amazing at all because he makes things go the way he wants to. He hardens hearts and has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. He empowers believers with the Holy Spirit which is stronger than human will or the devil.

I still think its amazing.

I believe we have the Holy Spirit which is stronger than human will or the devil. But I believe we have a will too (though bad and definately incredibly weak comparatively to God)

Heidi said:
John 14:28, "The words are say to you are not my own. Rather it is the Father living in me that is doing the work."

I think you meant John 14:24, "He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

or John 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I affirm wholeheartedly that Jesus words are not just His own but His Fathers. But even within the Godhead there is an element of freewill.

Jesus said: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."Luke 22:42


Heidi said:
Philippians 2:1, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." It's right there, friend. No one's will is stronger than God's will.

I think you meant Philippians 2:13

Heidi said:
So people can believe whatever they want. But if it contradicts scripture, it's not the truth. Habits die hard and the secular world believes in free will. So humans are used to thinking that they run the universe because we hear it all over the secular world. But not in the bible.

Believing in free will does not equate with humans thinking they can run the universe unless they think they can run the universe in the first place.

I definately affirm that God's will is stronger than my own, but I believe there is free will because Love is free, and the Bible confirms it. Free will is even found in the person of Jesus as I stated above in Luke 22:42

I don't agree with this robot stuff. :robot:

Robots don't love, robots can't have relationships...they really are only tools. We are tools yes, but not only tools. We are God's children. There is Love in complete and total surrender. A relationship in complete and total surrender.
 
Veritas said:
Believing in free will does not equate with humans thinking they can run the universe unless they think they can run the universe in the first place.

I definately affirm that God's will is stronger than my own, but I believe there is free will because Love is free, and the Bible confirms it. Free will is even found in the person of Jesus as I stated above in Luke 22:42

I don't agree with this robot stuff. :robot:

Robots don't love, robots can't have relationships...they really are only tools. We are tools yes, but not only tools. We are God's children. There is Love in complete and total surrender. A relationship in complete and total surrender.

Oops. No I meant John 14:26. I have a lot of scripture memorized so sometimes I glibly and quickly put the wrong verses down.

Instruments are tools also. ;-) 2 Timothy 2:21 and Acts 9:15 tells us we are intruments. So again, people can believe anything they want. They are can agree or disagree with God if they want to. But only what God says is what's true. :)

What the free love that the bible talks about is that God didn't have to offer us mercy since all we deserve is death. So he did it for no reason other than love. And because he first loved us, we can love others, as John says in 1 John. So no, an evil heart cannot love and please God. Only those hearts who have been cleansed of evil by the Spirit can know real love. :)
 
Heidi, wish I had lots of scripture memorized! I have a little memorized and just think it's so neat because you kind of end up having God's Word with you all the time! :D

Heidi said:
Instruments are tools also. 2 Timothy 2:21 and Acts 9:15 tells us we are intruments. So again, people can believe anything they want. They are can agree or disagree with God if they want to. But only what God says is what's true.

Amen! :smt023

Heidi said:
What the free love that the bible talks about is that God didn't have to offer us mercy since all we deserve is death. So he did it for no reason other than love. And because he first loved us, we can love others, as John says in 1 John. So no, an evil heart cannot love and please God. Only those hearts who have been cleansed of evil by the Spirit can know real love.

Amen! :D


After looking at my own comments about Luke 22:42 I feel like I should clarify that I believe the free will between Jesus and His Father is different than the free will between us and God. Jesus was will is always good. Ours is always bad (unless it is through Jesus.)
 
Veritas said:
Heidi, wish I had lots of scripture memorized! I have a little memorized and just think it's so neat because you kind of end up having God's Word with you all the time! :D



Amen! :D


After looking at my own comments about Luke 22:42 I feel like I should clarify that I believe the free will between Jesus and His Father is different than the free will between us and God. Jesus was will is always good. Ours is always bad (unless it is through Jesus.)

Because of what God did for me, His word is literally my food. I live on it everyday because His word is what brings me joy regardless of my outside circumstances. That's how I can be in the world but not of the world. :)

That's because man was born with a sinful nature and Jesus was not. So we respond to our sinful nature and the Spirit which over-rides it, but Jesus can only respond to the Spiritual nature with which he was born. So again, Jesus had no choice to sin because the holy Soirit does not sin. :)
 
I'll add my two cents worth on this, because the topic really does not bother me one way or the other, but here it goes.

Do we have a free will? Yes.

Is God in control and foreordained everything (e.g. predestination)? Yes.

Does God ordain things "because He would know the outcome"? NO! That would be passive involvement. God actively preordained things.

I can hear the protests now, "But what you stated is a contradiction." No. I think an Einstein is in order here. They can coexist because of the nature of the Universe. We live in time. God lives in Eternity and does not know time as we do. The problem with bandying about a subject such as this is because each person sees their coin as it fell on the floor. Sometimes its heads and sometimes its tails and they only see the one side and think there's not another side. We have to play with a full deck, not just two suits that please us. That's all I can say on that.
 
tim_from_pa said:
I'll add my two cents worth on this, because the topic really does not bother me one way or the other, but here it goes.

Do we have a free will? Yes.

Is God in control and foreordained everything (e.g. predestination)? Yes.

Does God ordain things "because He would know the outcome"? NO! That would be passive involvement. God actively preordained things.

I can hear the protests now, "But what you stated is a contradiction." No. I think an Einstein is in order here. They can coexist because of the nature of the Universe. We live in time. God lives in Eternity and does not know time as we do. The problem with bandying about a subject such as this is because each person sees their coin as it fell on the floor. Sometimes its heads and sometimes its tails and they only see the one side and think there's not another side. We have to play with a full deck, not just two suits that please us. That's all I can say on that.

Tim
I understand where your coming from...I have been trying to explain this, but people are either too Calvinist to see it or to Armenianist to believe it...
 
jgredline said:
Tim
I understand where your coming from...I have been trying to explain this, but people are either too Calvinist to see it or to Armenianist to believe it...

Not only that. I like Einstein and his theory of time dilation! :-D
 
tim_from_pa said:
I'll add my two cents worth on this, because the topic really does not bother me one way or the other, but here it goes.

Do we have a free will? Yes.

Is God in control and foreordained everything (e.g. predestination)? Yes.

Does God ordain things "because He would know the outcome"? NO! That would be passive involvement. God actively preordained things.

I can hear the protests now, "But what you stated is a contradiction." No. I think an Einstein is in order here. They can coexist because of the nature of the Universe. We live in time. God lives in Eternity and does not know time as we do. The problem with bandying about a subject such as this is because each person sees their coin as it fell on the floor. Sometimes its heads and sometimes its tails and they only see the one side and think there's not another side. We have to play with a full deck, not just two suits that please us. That's all I can say on that.
I do not understand this argument and believe that it cannot be correct. It is indeed a logical contradiction to assert that God has fore-ordained everything and to claim that man has free will.

Consider a thirsty fellow named Fred sitting at a table on which there is a can of Coke and a can of Pepsi. Can Fred exercize any free will at all in his "choice" of a beverage if God has fore-ordained what He will choose?

I think that the answer is rather obviously "no".

Let's suppose that God has fore-ordained that Fred will choose Coke. So Fred must choose Coke - it is impossible that he will choose Pepsi. And yet what does it mean for Fred to have free will in respect to the selection of a beverage? It means that he must not be compelled to choose one way or the other by some external agency. In this case, the external agency is God and Fred is compelled to choose Coke.

We cannot say that Fred has free will and still remain true to the concept of what "free will" actually means.

In a universe where God's will has fully and sufficiently determined every event, there can be no creatures with even a wisp of free will.

Now I believe that God is in general control of the Universe - he has certain goals He wants to achieve and He ensures that they are indeed achieved. But, since I also believe that man has some free will (not much maybe, but some), it simply cannot be true that God has pre-determined everything.

Interestingly, I believe that God could fore-know the future entirely (although I think the Scriptures teach that He does not - see 2 Kings 20:1-7) without interfering with free will. However, I think it is rather obviously impossible for God to fore-ordain the future entirely and for man to also have free will.
 
jgredline said:
Tim
I understand where your coming from...I have been trying to explain this, but people are either too Calvinist to see it or to Armenianist to believe it...

Let me correct myself....
Tim
I understand where your coming from...I have been trying to explain this, but people are either too Calvinist to see it or to Armenianist to accept it or to Openthiestic to understand it...
 
Back
Top