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Were these accidents?

jgredline said:
Bubba said:
Bubba
This is one of the reasons I learned how to read Greek..There are many passages through out the bible that are done a great injustice by the many English translations....Now for the sake of argument lets take a look at a few other translations....

From the amplified...
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior).

The amplified has it right...............


Now from the literal LA Biblia
48 Oyendo esto los gentiles, se regocijaban y glorificaban la palabra del Señor; y creyeron cuantos estaban ordenados a vida eterna.

They too have it right....

Now from the KJV
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

They were allot closer than the other translations...For one to be ordained, he must be willing to receive it....


So again I say ''The Bible nowhere teaches the doctrine of reprobation''
No place in the bible is it taught that God created folks simply to torment them.....

Javier,
I admit I am not familar with Greek, but I did spend some time in our local Bible Store. Every Greek Interlinear I read either had "appointed" or "were disposed", What I really found interesting is that I only found one commentary that agrees with your interpretation, in fact two said that to say Acts 13:48 isn't talking about God's choosing is "forcing" a interpretation. I did not try and pick Calvinist commentaries, (and I only recognized one author (John MacArthur who is a Calvinist/Dispensationalist I think).
Now in regards to the Bible not talking about reprobates, I think Romans 9:14-24, will put that notion to rest. 1Peter 2:7-8 also comes to mind,

7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"



8 and

"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."



They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Grace,Bubba
 
Bubba
Admittingly, I have not looked at any commentaries on that passage in acts..
To me it is pretty clear...I have not looked at any interlinears either, but will do so tomorrow...I will also spend some time on the Romans passage tomorrow...
Right now, it is time to go to bed...

Good night,
javier
 
Drew said:
jg and others: Please take the time to respond to my post about Fred and his choice of Coke or Pepsi. I think it is eminently clear that we cannot make any sense of the assertion that man has any free will if God fore-ordains everything.

If the argument goes unchallenged, people will likely conclude that it is correct (I would think).

Bubba, I assume that you agree with my argument. Please confirm

Drew,
I do agree with your argument, but I also believe as Martin Luther, "that all things happen out of necessity, but not out of compulsion".
Evil people, including Pilate, the High Priest ,Judas, etc did what they did naturally, but God used their evil (as a second caused agent) for His own purposes Acts 2:23 and 4:27-28. Never forget Ephesians 1:11, absolutely nothing happens that the Lord has not purposed by His expressed will.

Grace Bubba
 
Bubba said:
Never forget Ephesians 1:11, absolutely nothing happens that the Lord has not purposed by His expressed will.

Grace Bubba

Well, I did say good night, but I could not let this go....
1 tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ....Now we know that it is Gods desire / his will for all men to be saved
yet we know that they are not.....

By your logic and your theology, 1 tim 2:3 would be a direct contradiction with eph 1;11.....Now if you believe in the way I do that the bible does not contradict itself, you have a real problem....here...
 
jgredline said:
Well, I did say good night, but I could not let this go....
1 tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ....Now we know that it is Gods desire / his will for all men to be saved
yet we know that they are not.....

By your logic and your theology, 1 tim 2:3 would be a direct contradiction with eph 1;11.....Now if you believe in the way I do that the bible does not contradict itself, you have a real problem....here...


Javier,
We have discussed this already with our Saviors crucifixion, God's high Decree was that it would happen, He used evil people in order for it to happen, yet,God does not like sin, God wants all people to be obedient (anthropomorhic will),
God desires all men to be saved, God loves the world and His general grace goes out and the world is not as evil as it could be, because of God's retraints on man's evil nature (someday He will lift those restraints), God causes pagans and heathens to love each other (marriage, children, friends, etc) all this is for the elect also, in that He creates a milieu that we can live in that is not as bad as would be otherwise.
Now Javier who is the one not being honest with Scripture? Does Ephesians 1:11 not say "...been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"? Does not Romans 11:36 allude to the same, "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever! Amen".? Much of Scripture is an apparent contradiction when seen through imperfect eyes, which we all have. At times I need to not rely on my own understanding and just accept that Scripture can be a mystery and that I will not fully understand untill glory. The whole aspect of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, the fact that God is omniscient and knows the beginning and well as the end of all things; we nonetheless in our realm, live life making genuine choices that God beforehand knew we would make and uses these decision for His purposes (Ephesians 2:10, Phillipians 2:13).
Blessings, Bubba
 
Javier and anyone else,
About 10 years ago I got the book "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther, where he argues against a book Erasmus wrote on freewill. I believe that Luther was able in this book to adequately explain why He sees God as the sovereign of our salvation and our lives. I am not a Lutheran, but if it is still in print, it is a good read.
Bubba
 
Arminian Bible verse:

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Calvinist Bible Verse:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now fight out (nicely) whose right.

:-D
 
Bubba said:
Javier,
We have discussed this already with our Saviors crucifixion, God's high Decree was that it would happen, He used evil people in order for it to happen, yet,God does not like sin, God wants all people to be obedient (anthropomorhic will),
God desires all men to be saved, God loves the world and His general grace goes out and the world is not as evil as it could be, because of God's retraints on man's evil nature (someday He will lift those restraints), God causes pagans and heathens to love each other (marriage, children, friends, etc) all this is for the elect also, in that He creates a milieu that we can live in that is not as bad as would be otherwise.

I don't recall having this conversation....I will go back and see if I can find it.
I will say, that I do believe that
God loves the world and His general grace goes out and the world is not as evil as it could be, because of God's retraints on man's evil nature (someday He will lift those restraints)


Now Javier who is the one not being honest with Scripture? Does Ephesians 1:11 not say "...been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will"? Does not Romans 11:36 allude to the same, "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever! Amen".? Much of Scripture is an apparent contradiction when seen through imperfect eyes, which we all have. At times I need to not rely on my own understanding and just accept that Scripture can be a mystery and that I will not fully understand untill glory.

As I have said before, I agree with this...But again, it still comes down to a choice that was made by you and me....God did not force me to choose him and God did not force me to love him...I Choose to love and worship him, because when the Gospel was presented to me, The Holy Spirit opened my eyes and gave me ears to hear as he does ''everybody''...at that time I ''chose'' to accept the Good news...and became born again....This would not have been possible with out the Holy Spirit doing a work in me in the same way he does everyone....The difference is some choose to believe and accept his common Grace and others don't....iF man did not have a choice then the false doctrine of universalism would be right because God desires all men to be saved....Then there would be no hell....no eternal torment....
Since you lean tword the annihilation position, I can see how u believe this...
However, the bible is pretty clear on eternal torment...I would be happy to debate you on this in the debate forum if u like....

The problem in all of this is how Gods sovereignty fits into all of this...''if'' God was completely sovereign, in the way you believe, then all men would be saved....
Perhaps if you explained what you believe this means, we will then be able to dissect the problem..I believe that many are confused on this...

The whole aspect of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, the fact that God is omniscient and knows the beginning and well as the end of all things; we nonetheless in our realm, live life making genuine choices that God beforehand knew we would make and uses these decision for His purposes (Ephesians 2:10, Phillipians 2:13).

I believe your finally starting to get it...The fact that God knows what we will choose to eat tomorrow and what time we choose to go to sleep, does not take away from the fact that we made the choice...

If we had no free will, then we would never sin.....because Gods will is that we not sin...
 
Bubba said:
Javier and anyone else,
About 10 years ago I got the book "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther, where he argues against a book Erasmus wrote on freewill. I believe that Luther was able in this book to adequately explain why He sees God as the sovereign of our salvation and our lives. I am not a Lutheran, but if it is still in print, it is a good read.
Bubba

I have enjoyed much of Martin Luther and think greatly of the man...I have studied much of his writings and I agree with some, but not all....
I will say this....We should not allow our theology to be shaped by other men....
Good theology will lead to doxology and I believe that 5 point or hyper calvinism does not do this...because with out choice there can be no true agape love....
 
aLoneVoice said:
The idea of ONE MAN dying on a Cross for the sins of the World - doesn't sound all that logical.

Then again - God uses the foolish to shame the wise.

You are attempting to say that God must fit into YOUR form of logic. Christ dying for my sins isn't logical - but I am thankful that He did - logic or no.
The above was posted in response to my argument that it is conceptually incoherent to claim that God fully determines the future and yet man has free will.

There is a huge difference between the claim that one man died for the sins of the world and saying that God fully determines the future while man also has free will. The latter claim is equivalent to saying that there are round squares or triangles with five sides - it is, quite frankly, a nonsense statement. No one has refuted the argument yet.

When we assert that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, there is no conceptual contradiction, no blatant abuse of word meanings as there is with a claim that man has free will in a world where God fully determines everything.

While I do not agree with Bubba's views, at least he is not abusing the relevant concepts. The above post refers to "my form of logic" as if there is a form where it makes sense to have self-contradictory statements.

If people are willing to believe that God fully and exhaustivelydetermines the future while granting man the capacity to partly determine the future (this is what free will requires man to be able to do), then the sky is the limit for the incoherences we can believe in.
 
The problem in all of this is how Gods sovereignty fits into all of this...''if'' God was completely sovereign, in the way you believe, then all men would be saved....
Ahhh, the very basis of UR is God's sovereignty and man's total lack of free will or freedom of choice. The belief is that since no one has a true free will, no one can be severely punished... just the opposite. They see "hellfire" or possible the Lake of Fire as a process of purification. :o

My belief is one side can place too much emphasis on God's sovereignty and winds up with either a hyper-view, a type of fatalism or... UR. :o

On the other hand, placing too much emphasis on man and his free will can lead to a type of free will theism.

My belief is that God calls all and gives all some faith. We either respond or don't to the calling; we either place that faith in Him or redirect it to someone or something else. For me, this glorifies God and pleases Him when one turns from their ways and turns to God.

Anyways, I was reading through Ezekiel and ran across this verse:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

It begs me to ask: can God feel sadness?

Peace,
Vic
 
vic C. said:
Ahhh, the very basis of UR is God's sovereignty and man's total lack of free will or freedom of choice. The belief is that since no one has a true free will, no one can be severely punished... just the opposite. They see "hellfire" or possible the Lake of Fire as a process of purification. :o

My belief is one side can place too much emphasis on God's sovereignty and winds up with either a hyper-view, a type of fatalism or... UR. :o

On the other hand, placing too much emphasis on man and his free will can lead to a type of free will theism.

My belief is that God calls all and gives all some faith. We either respond or don't to the calling; we either place that faith in Him or redirect it to someone or something else. For me, this glorifies God and pleases Him when one turns from their ways and turns to God.

Anyways, I was reading through Ezekiel and ran across this verse:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

It begs me to ask: can God feel sadness?

Peace,
Vic

Vic...Great post and I agree 100% with all of this....The part that I highlighted in particular is the main component....Good theology will lead to doxology....
 
In summary, here are my thoughts on the free will - sovereignty issue:

1. General Principle: one must be true to the concepts - no cheating by making claims like "God fully determines event "x" with no input from man on the one hand yet man also has a free will determinative influence on "x". If one says things like this, we might as well say that darkness is light and good is evil.

2. God has chosen to give up some of his control over events in the universe. But, and I will hop up and down to emphasize the following and woe betide those who claim I say otherwise: the degree of this abdication of control is "small enough" to ensure that His "gotta do it" will cannot be thwarted. Obviously, to avoid the trap of my general principle, I have to now state that I do not believe that God has a "gotta do it" will that is exhaustive in respect to every event in the universe - this means that while God will ensure that Christ will return under the "right" conditions, God may not have a "gotta do it" will re whether I will have Corn Flakes or Captain Crunch for breakfast tomorrow. I may have free will in respect to my choice of breakfast cereal.

3. Man has a limited degree of free will - the ability to change the evolution of history with neither necessity or compulsion determining his choices.

4. God is wise enough to weave man's free will choices into his "gotta do it" will, even though, gasp, the Scriptures clearly show (2 Kings 20) that He does not fully know the future. So, interestingly enough, it may turn out that God uses my free choice of breakfast cereal as a tiny event in a complex series of events that actually contribute to His goal of having Jesus return at the time He intended all along. My cereal choice remains free because God may not have a "gotta make Drew eat Corn Flakes" will, yet God can weave my actual choice into some larger plan to achieve those things about which He does have a "gotta do it" will.
 
Drew said:
even though, gasp, the Scriptures clearly show (2 Kings 20) that He does not fully know the future
Do you have a verse for that? I skimmed the passage and saw nothing showing that God does not fully know the future.
 
Free said:
Do you have a verse for that? I skimmed the passage and saw nothing showing that God does not fully know the future.
Here is 2 Kings 20:1-7 with bolding added by me for emphasis:

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD,

"Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.' "

Then Isaiah said, "Prepare a poultice of figs." They did so and applied it to the boil, and he recovered.


Argument:

1. The Lord (though Isaiah) tells Hez that he will not recover. In order for God to not be lying, He (God) needs to believe that the future includes the event of Hez' dying of his immediate illness.

2. After Hez prays, God states that Hez will indeed recover.

3. We know that Hez recovers. This is a fact.

4. So when God initially claimed that Hez would not recover, He held a view of the future that did not, in fact, match the future that actually played out.

5. Therefore God does not know the future exhaustively, at least at certain times, anyway.

Rather than conclude that God was lying to Hez or was "mistaken", I conclude that what He initially told Hez (that he would die) was the expression of God's intentions at that time. Of course, we know that the intention was abandoned by God. It is not a "mistake" nor a lie for God to effectively say to Hez: "I intend for you to not recover" just like a parent might say "I intend to send you to bed without your dinner."

Of course, parents can be moved to change their intentions as this text shows that God also can.

God can and is moved to change his intentions through human petition.

How most of you (if not all) can believe otherwise and still pray with any sincerity is a mystery to me.
 
Vic,

My major disagreement with your post is that your are equating Calvinism with UR. I am thinking that you may not consider those who believe in God's sovereignty as brothers, and I can live with that, but even if I were an Arminian through and through I would still be aware of the differences in the arguments of these two groups...major differences. I think it's best to be careful not to equate them, even if you do not believe either group to be believers. It would be similar to me saying that all Arminians are open theists, and that is just simply not a true representation of their beliefs. The Lord bless you.
 
Lovely
While your post was directed at Vic, I feel the need to respond since I was in agreement with him...

I do not see where he/we are equating Calvinism with UR...
I or he never questioned ones Salvation either...
In fact, I consider 5 point Calvinist and die hard Armenians no less saved than I am...A hyper calvinist or a hyper armeninaist, well thats another story...IMO

For the record as I have stated many times, I consider myself a Calminianist...
I started my walk as an armenianist, then went to 5 point calvinism for a little while, and atleast through my eyes, found the truth in the middle, leaning towords the reformed side....

Anyway, those are my thoughts, I am sure vic will share his.
 
My major disagreement with your post is that your are equating Calvinism with UR. I am thinking that you may not consider those who believe in God's sovereignty as brothers...
No comparisons intended. My post was a direct response to Javiers. My point was that Universalists take God's sovereignty, man's total deptavity and the belief that since man is not responsible, man cannot be accountable and can't be the subject of an eternal hell.

I know this isn't what Calvinsts believe, hence there is no comparison. I also believe Calvinists are brothers and sisters in Christ; hey, I also believe many RC and Orthodox believers are too.

I too believe in God's sovereignty. But for me, just because God can do it, doesn't mean He does. I also believe that the balance between God's sovereignty and man's freedom of choice can NEVER swing in man's favor. His will be done...
always! :angel: I must add that man's choices do come with a responsiblity.

Hope this clears things up. ;-) BTW, I think the duck is stalking me! :o LOL
 
Drew said:
Here is 2 Kings 20:1-7 with bolding added by me for emphasis:

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD,

"Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.' "

Then Isaiah said, "Prepare a poultice of figs." They did so and applied it to the boil, and he recovered.


Argument:

1. The Lord (though Isaiah) tells Hez that he will not recover. In order for God to not be lying, He (God) needs to believe that the future includes the event of Hez' dying of his immediate illness.

2. After Hez prays, God states that Hez will indeed recover.

3. We know that Hez recovers. This is a fact.

4. So when God initially claimed that Hez would not recover, He held a view of the future that did not, in fact, match the future that actually played out.

5. Therefore God does not know the future exhaustively, at least at certain times, anyway.

Rather than conclude that God was lying to Hez or was "mistaken", I conclude that what He initially told Hez (that he would die) was the expression of God's intentions at that time. Of course, we know that the intention was abandoned by God. It is not a "mistake" nor a lie for God to effectively say to Hez: "I intend for you to not recover" just like a parent might say "I intend to send you to bed without your dinner."

Of course, parents can be moved to change their intentions as this text shows that God also can.

God can and is moved to change his intentions through human petition.

How most of you (if not all) can believe otherwise and still pray with any sincerity is a mystery to me.
Just making sure I was right in my assumptions about where you were getting this idea from. You do realize that it is quite a jump to use that passage to say that God doesn't know everything the future holds.

Is it not quite possible that "Hez" would have died had he not prayed, that God would have let it come to that, but that the whole purpose in telling him that he would die was precisely so that Hez would turn to God? After all, how many times in Scripture does God give advanced warning of impending death?

There is no inconsistency in God knowing that Hez would turn to him for healing and what God said to him.
 
Javier and Vic,

Thanks for clearing that up, you guys. I was doing many different things...reading out of context, but then adding in the context of other threads...and (clears her throat) being touchy. I see it more clearly now. Vic, I know we agree on the UR thing, btw, and have always admired your passion on the matter. The Lord bless you guys, and I am sorry about the misunderstanding.
 
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