What advantage does free will give to godly people?

[tessiewebb]

I've recently been thinking of free will in a different way. It's always been about freedom to choose Christ or Ba'al, or to believe or not believe in tenets of Christianity. But now, it's a new ball game as the saying goes. Someone on another forum asked why murderers, rapists, child abusers, molesters and other criminals as well as the proud, discriminating and so on are allowed to go on with their activities? i wondered too. Why doesn't God stop them in their tracks? He certainly CAN, but he DOESN'T. What's up with that? We've all heard the saws: "He loves everyone, even the child molester." Things like that. Well, consider this. If we are as He is in this world and He says we, who are the sons of God, are, then you could ask, why do we allow it? I was shocked at the suggestion that even I, since I have free will, can do something about the guilty ones behaviors.

But consider this: Psychics help police departments find murderers, or so it is reported. What do Christians do? For the most part, we do what the world does, mourn for the families, despise the acts, maybe pray for the killers and abusers when we hear their sad stories of early abuse, neglect, abandonment, whatever.

But do Christians as a group, ones who will rule and reign with Jesus, do we think of praying beforehand? As in "Lord, if there are child molesters in my neighborhood, show me when they are planning evil. Let me know if they are even now preying on children." And then, when we get that word of wisdom or knowledge, pray accordingly? I don't think so. Maybe there are some out there who have gotten this same understanding but if so I have not heard of them.

By watching a documentary on narco-trafficking in So. America and Mexico, I learned the name of the chief "capo" of the Sinoloa Cartel in Mexico. I have his face in my memory and am going to be praying that he will find it impossible to continue his activities, that every time he turns around something will hinder him. Trucks will break down, crops will be destroyed or fail due to climate, however he can be blocked from plying his trade. Any way that doesn't involve him feeling he must take revenge on someone else.

Will anyone else join me? I don't mean praying for this person, but whatever the Lord shows you. It might be something in your neighborhood, your city, or your own family. We can't pray that God will take away their free will, if He did, He'd not be just if He didn't take ours who want to do good also. Let's talk to the Father and see what He thinks of this.

 

[jasoncran]

i prayed for these to be found and if dead(and i was told chaundry levy was dead) that justice would be served.

and i have prayed for elizabeth smart. so yes we have that power in christ. God used to tell me that i should pray for those missing and criminals

 

[childeye]

As you are well aware, I don't recognize freewill existing as you define it. But I will suffer the mutilation of the word free to address the intention of your thread.

The problem here is, everytime I would pray for God to stop allowing something bad to happen I would be displaying before God the implication that I have some greater Love than Him, since I am asking Him to do something about what I have assumed He does not care about or has not thought about.

With all due respect for your passion, I don't think this is a good idea.

 

[tessiewebb]

i prayed for these to be found and if dead(and i was told chaundry levy was dead) that justice would be served.

and i have prayed for elizabeth smart. so yes we have that power in christ. God used to tell me that i should pray for those missing and criminals

Great! We're off to a great start with your testimony. Did you have inner visions? How did you know when you had done enough praying?

 

[tessiewebb]

As you are well aware, I don't recognize freewill existing as you define it. But I will suffer the mutilation of the word free to address the intention of your thread.

The problem here is, everytime I would pray for God to stop allowing something bad to happen I would be displaying before God the implication that I have some greater Love than Him, since I am asking Him to do something about what I have assumed He does not care about or has not thought about.

With all due respect for your passion, I don't think this is a good idea.

I was unaware of your beliefs, childeye. May I direct you to Lev 1:3?, as well as several other verses in that book? In the NKJV the first verse reads, "he shall offer it of his own free will"; this refers to offerings. You say you have a feeling of dishonoring God by exercising this free will prayer against evil; though I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, it is your "free will" to act on it or not. ;)

The way the Bible reads to me, we are sons of God; being as Jesus was in the world, we are free to act as agents of God. Not that He doesn't see, understand, and could stop evil with a single commandment of His mouth, but that I've come to believe that He is waiting for us to be His agents on earth. After all, He lives in us, we listen and behave as we hear Him directing. Why would He not have us pray in this manner as in all others?

For instance, I prayed this morning that this man in Sinaloa, Mexico would be sent dreams of torment bdcause of the murders and drug trafficking, and that he'd also learn, whether through dreams or sermons, or "coincidence", of the lovingkindness and forgiveness to be found in turning to Christ. Remember too, dear one, that Paul commanded us to pray at all times for all men. Still, I am not trying to convince you to join this effort. Be at peace in yourself concerning it.

(If I may, I'd like to ask that you not use this thread as a place to argue for or against free will if you don't mind. I'd like to see it stay on track)

 

[jasoncran]

the holy spirit told me. i will start doing this again.i have slacked in that.

this is how i did this. i would stop at the signs in walmart that say so and so is mising and pray for all those kids and ask that they be found and leave it to god and also for justice to be brought forward for the perp.

when i hear of those like of levy or smart and other famous cases such as that one in california(cant think of his name) where he killed his wife and baby and then called them in as missing.i prayed for her to be found and justice. they found the body and then i prayed for the killer to be found. and it all came to pass. i knew by the word of the lord that she was dead.

i dont always get the answers.Childeye, what is wrong praying for them? i bet if your children Got kidnapped or raped etc you would gladly accept my prayers and others to find them and also the perp to be served justice. when i pray for justice that isnt to condmemn then but two things first safety of the population and his or her soul.


trust me it isnt like this happened all the time. i didnt get answered then and there, just whenever the lord felt the need to tell me.

 

[tessiewebb]

the holy spirit told me. i will start doing this again.i have slacked in that.....trust me it isnt like this happened all the time. i didnt get answered then and there, just whenever the lord felt the need to tell me.

Thank you for your answer, jasoncran. Appreciate the insight into the actual "mechanics" of it. Bad word, but can't think of a more appropriate one at the moment. By "mechanics", I mean, do we wait on an inspiration? Do we get touched by someone's plight? Like I suspect you were by the missing children, so that your heart was open when the Spirit touched you to pray for them in the two ways: to be found and for justice to be done.

I beleive many Christians are "afraid" of their imaginations. That if they get an inner vision or a thought to do something godlike, they dismiss it because they think it is "just my imagination running away with me". Didn't we have a song about that? When the Spirit provoked the thought I had of "Who gave you imagination", I was taken aback. Sometimes that is the way I know the Spirit is speaking to me, it is something I've not thought of before or even "imagined" ;)

I once heard a speaker say that she'd dithered several days over a thought that she should give a friend a certain amount of money. "What if I'm off track? What if I miss you?", she wondered, Eventually, she said, she heard clearly from God, "If you miss me, I'll find you!"

I am very excited about this new way of looking at free will prayer. It is sometimes very frustrating not to be able to "do something " about the evil we hear of. So here it is, a way to really "do something". And we are acting in obedience to Paul's command that we pray for all men at all times. How much better could it get?

On the serious side, if we pray amiss, I'm sure God can straighten us out.

 

[jasoncran]

No GOD told me that I OUGHT to stop and pray for the missing children whenever and whereever i see that board. he led me to do that.i had no choice in the matter. but alas this has brought some conviction to me.

so i will start with some unsolved murders in my hometown.i can pm then newsstories if you like.

murder #1
Lord i pray for the family of that hispanic elderly woman found in the c-54 canal. let justice be served, let the man or woman who did this be found,let them repent and let the family find peace in this.if she had any kids let them be save and secure and heal the wounds

murder #2
lord, the elderly gentle woman who was murdered in her home was a loved women by all that knew her. I ask that those friends be comforted and that justice be served. i also ask for killers souls to be saved. this murder as you know lord was the most senseless as neither money nor jewerly were taken. this man maby be very evil.i ask that he be found.

all these in your name Lord jesus amen.

 

[childeye]

=tessiewebb;569791]I was unaware of your beliefs, childeye. May I direct you to Lev 1:3?, as well as several other verses in that book? In the NKJV the first verse reads, "he shall offer it of his own free will"; this refers to offerings.

Yes I am aware of this scripture and I take it we would both agree it pertains to voluntary.

You say you have a feeling of dishonoring God by exercising this free will prayer against evil; though I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, it is your "free will" to act on it or not. ;)

It is with puzzlement that I wonder how you seem to understand I could not ask God to do that which is in doubt of what He already knows is necessary, and yet you say you don't understand how I come to that conclusion.

The way the Bible reads to me, we are sons of God; being as Jesus was in the world, we are free to act as agents of God. Not that He doesn't see, understand, and could stop evil with a single commandment of His mouth, but that I've come to believe that He is waiting for us to be His agents on earth. After all, He lives in us, we listen and behave as we hear Him directing. Why would He not have us pray in this manner as in all others?

Here I would agree that the Holy Spirit leads us in prayer for we often do not know what it is we should pray for.

For instance, I prayed this morning that this man in Sinaloa, Mexico would be sent dreams of torment bdcause of the murders and drug trafficking, and that he'd also learn, whether through dreams or sermons, or "coincidence", of the lovingkindness and forgiveness to be found in turning to Christ. Remember too, dear one, that Paul commanded us to pray at all times for all men. Still, I am not trying to convince you to join this effort. Be at peace in yourself concerning it.

I would be at peace simply praying that all men come to see the Truth of His ways and myself incuded in all humility.

(If I may, I'd like to ask that you not use this thread as a place to argue for or against free will if you don't mind. I'd like to see it stay on track)

Indeed, your thread has the word freewill in it and as I have said in the outset, it is not my intention to go into my personal fixation on it's ever changing implications, but to address the matter as you have intended to apply it. Please note I have not taken your thread off track, but only mentioned the word freewill so as to post here without accepting the term to mean we are free to disobey God.

 

[jasoncran]

" God used prayer to orchestrate men to do his will" a paraphrase from a calvinist pastor and grandson of billy graham.

how do you know that what tessiewebb and i are doing isnt such a thing?

 

[childeye]

" God used prayer to orchestrate men to do his will" a paraphrase from a calvinist pastor and grandson of billy graham.

how do you know that what tessiewebb and i are doing isnt such a thing?

I am not a calvinist, but I feel it safe to say if pure Love is the motivation it is God. Only you and God would know. Suffice it to say, we should all have concern for any evil that transpires if we have Love ruling in us. Knowing how the spiritual things work in mankind and how to free men from the kingdom of darkness would be helpful in knowing how to pray.

 

[jasoncran]

lol, you are more calvinistic then me.

i neither believe in the idea of eternal security, limited atonment, and also irrestable grace.

i believe you accept those thoughts and ideas from calvin.while i am not dogmatic against calvinism as eventide is, and ironically he is more calvinistic then me.

 

[childeye]

lol, you are more calvinistic then me.

i neither believe in the idea of eternal security, limited atonment, and also irrestable grace.

i believe you accept those thoughts and ideas from calvin.while i am not dogmatic against calvinism as eventide is, and ironically he is more calvinistic then me.

Oh Jasoncran, I don't even know what those terms mean as in what context they are applied. For the record I do not count myself saved for that is yet my hope, I do not know how the world can be worth more than the one who created it so I cannot speak of a limited atonement, and I know that which is God's grace is ever our food even as it is our hunger from the beginning of creation, so I cannot concieve how any man is able to resist His will. Now stop before I get blamed for taking this thread off track.

 

[Elijah674]

I've recently been thinking of free will in a different way. It's always been about freedom to choose Christ or Ba'al, or to believe or not believe in tenets of Christianity. But now, it's a new ball game as the saying goes. Someone on another forum asked why murderers, rapists, child abusers, molesters and other criminals as well as the proud, discriminating and so on are allowed to go on with their activities? i wondered too. Why doesn't God stop them in their tracks? He certainly CAN, but he DOESN'T. What's up with that? We've all heard the saws: "He loves everyone, even the child molester." Things like that. Well, consider this. If we are as He is in this world and He says we, who are the sons of God, are, then you could ask, why do we allow it? I was shocked at the suggestion that even I, since I have free will, can do something about the guilty ones behaviors.

But consider this: Psychics help police departments find murderers, or so it is reported. What do Christians do? For the most part, we do what the world does, mourn for the families, despise the acts, maybe pray for the killers and abusers when we hear their sad stories of early abuse, neglect, abandonment, whatever.

But do Christians as a group, ones who will rule and reign with Jesus, do we think of praying beforehand? As in "Lord, if there are child molesters in my neighborhood, show me when they are planning evil. Let me know if they are even now preying on children." And then, when we get that word of wisdom or knowledge, pray accordingly? I don't think so. Maybe there are some out there who have gotten this same understanding but if so I have not heard of them.

By watching a documentary on narco-trafficking in So. America and Mexico, I learned the name of the chief "capo" of the Sinoloa Cartel in Mexico. I have his face in my memory and am going to be praying that he will find it impossible to continue his activities, that every time he turns around something will hinder him. Trucks will break down, crops will be destroyed or fail due to climate, however he can be blocked from plying his trade. Any way that doesn't involve him feeling he must take revenge on someone else.

Will anyone else join me? I don't mean praying for this person, but whatever the Lord shows you. It might be something in your neighborhood, your city, or your own family. We can't pray that God will take away their free will, if He did, He'd not be just if He didn't take ours who want to do good also. Let's talk to the Father and see what He thinks of this.

No santanic Psychics! (back to free/will in the original way!)

The first & only Eternal Free/Will Trial of earth Vindicates the Godhead with all who are even eternally to be saved. Otherwise it would always beonly Gods Word! (and many do not even hold to that, who make that claim! but go to psychics! 1 Sam. 28:6-7)

Think of satans lies about God! Even having most still 'teaching' that he (satan) told the truth!

And the 2/3's who did not rebel? with surely some who just barely did & some who just barely did not!

So, this sin stuff will be 100% documented (Nah. 1:9) by God placing Himself on trial before the universe by using His creation's freedom of choice.;)

--Elijah

 

[tessiewebb]

Yes I am aware of this scripture and I take it we would both agree it pertains to voluntary.

It is with puzzlement that I wonder how you seem to understand I could not ask God to do that which is in doubt of what He already knows is necessary, and yet you say you don't understand how I come to that conclusion.


Here I would agree that the Holy Spirit leads us in prayer for we often do not know what it is we should pray for.

I would be at peace simply praying that all men come to see the Truth of His ways and myself incuded in all humility.

Indeed, your thread has the word freewill in it and as I have said in the outset, it is not my intention to go into my personal fixation on it's ever changing implications, but to address the matter as you have intended to apply it. Please note I have not taken your thread off track, but only mentioned the word freewill so as to post here without accepting the term to mean we are free to disobey God.

As long as you're praying I'd say you are doing so by your free will. As am I. But, again, I don't want to argue with you on that subject and I appreciate your response to jasoncran about not getting it off track, though I hate to htink you saw my request as a warning of some kind. It was a request only.

Btw, I understand that you have an issue with the kind of prayer I'm suggesting and jasoncran seems to have been practiciing already, I just don't see how you came to the conclusion that the kind of prayer I'm suggesting is in any way taking away from His Lordship. That is your personal belief and I am not required to understand how you came to the conclusion. I just wanted to let you know I do understand that you have a conviction concerning the matter.

 

[tessiewebb]

No GOD told me that I OUGHT to stop and pray for the missing children whenever and whereever i see that board. he led me to do that.i had no choice in the matter. but alas this has brought some conviction to me.

so i will start with some unsolved murders in my hometown.i can pm then newsstories if you like.

murder #1
Lord i pray for the family of that hispanic elderly woman found in the c-54 canal. let justice be served, let the man or woman who did this be found,let them repent and let the family find peace in this.if she had any kids let them be save and secure and heal the wounds

murder #2
lord, the elderly gentle woman who was murdered in her home was a loved women by all that knew her. I ask that those friends be comforted and that justice be served. i also ask for killers souls to be saved. this murder as you know lord was the most senseless as neither money nor jewerly were taken. this man maby be very evil.i ask that he be found.

all these in your name Lord jesus amen.

Hi, jasoncran,
No thank you on the pm offer. I hear enough horrible news where I am. If you hear anything on the news about the Sinaloa cartel falling apart, I'd very much appreciate your pming me about that!

The Lord has not directed me to pray for anything else in particular yet. And I'm kinda wondering why today I was impressed to pray again on the Sinaloa subject. Shouldn't one prayer be enough? I believe I was heard and that what I prayed is in line with His will.

I've read Daniel pretty extensively lately and discovered that his 21 day fast (as is it is preached) was unnecessary. The angel told him he'd been heard on the first day so his voluntary humbling of self for the other 23 days, or whatever, was not required for the answer. Maybe he should have been praying for the angel to get help from Michael sooner? Or against the power that hindered him?

I'd be interested in how the Spirit works within you. And what you think about the Daniel thing.

 

[childeye]

As long as you're praying I'd say you are doing so by your free will. As am I. But, again, I don't want to argue with you on that subject and I appreciate your response to jasoncran about not getting it off track, though I hate to htink you saw my request as a warning of some kind. It was a request only.

Btw, I understand that you have an issue with the kind of prayer I'm suggesting and jasoncran seems to have been practiciing already, I just don't see how you came to the conclusion that the kind of prayer I'm suggesting is in any way taking away from His Lordship. That is your personal belief and I am not required to understand how you came to the conclusion. I just wanted to let you know I do understand that you have a conviction concerning the matter.

You are polite in your dealing with my responses. God be thanked for such patience and understanding. I will concede I am not against your request and see nothing wrong in the intent. For me ultimately I must end such a prayer with "your will be done", in acknowledging that we don't see all things. I have read Jasoncrans prayer and would only add that we know His justice will prevail and not ours. As you are polite and Jasoncrans prayer is of good report, I sense a sincere concern for this, So I will also pray with you.

 

[jasoncran]

first off tessie you are encouraging me(exhorting to pray again on these issues). all to easy we forget what pray does and is for.


when i prayed it was simple and quick such as above. the lord would tell me when i heard of it on the news.

thats is all he did.

hmm Lord i ask that wherever this cartel is that it be brought to nothing.lord i ask that these men and women come forward turn themselves in and be saved. i know that the drug trade wont go away, therefore i also pray for the abusers. that they repent and be saved. in your name

 

[tessiewebb]

You are polite in your dealing with my responses. God be thanked for such patience and understanding. I will concede I am not against your request and see nothing wrong in the intent. For me ultimately I must end such a prayer with "your will be done", in acknowledging that we don't see all things. I have read Jasoncrans prayer and would only add that we know His justice will prevail and not ours. As you are polite and Jasoncrans prayer is of good report, I sense a sincere concern for this, So I will also pray with you.

Thank you, childeye. I'm sure the recipients will be grateful for your prayers!

 

[tessiewebb]

first off tessie you are encouraging me(exhorting to pray again on these issues). all to easy we forget what pray does and is for.


when i prayed it was simple and quick such as above. the lord would tell me when i heard of it on the news.

thats is all he did.

hmm Lord i ask that wherever this cartel is that it be brought to nothing.lord i ask that these men and women come forward turn themselves in and be saved. i know that the drug trade wont go away, therefore i also pray for the abusers. that they repent and be saved. in your name

Thanks for agreeing on this subject with me jasoncran, You know the verse whatever two or more agree? Awesome!

Let me ask you, have you ever felt that you needed to pray again about one of the people you pray for, like one time isn't enough? I think it is a trick of the enemy to keep me focused on a subject since we are assured we are heard when we pray. My Pastor seems to think the "fervent" prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much because it is repeated, or at least lengthy and heated. I think we should not pray twice for the same thing since it feels to me like He didn't hear the first one. Don't know..what do you and the other posters think?