What advantage does free will give to godly people?

[jasoncran]

Is it your assumption that this "only choice" that we have to make is not "limited" and that there aren't forces more powerful than us that press their will on this specific aspect of our will too?

" we when a christian sins he choose sin over God"

a calvinist said that, i agree with that.

let me ask you this. when you hear or observe that its time to go to church does God make you go? does he override your will to sit at home, do something else?

no he doesnt. let us not forsake(to choose not do something that you once did regularly) the assemblin of ourselves to gether.

its funny the calvanist make satan all powerful as if he is always at fault when often we choose sin knowingly over god!

satan entinces us but we choose or choice not to act. the sinner is blinded but he still is held accountable for his choice to sin not satan., satan is damned already, he wont be even more damned at his judgment, the sentence will be carried out thats all.

 

[ivdavid]

let me ask you this. when you hear or observe that its time to go to church does God make you go? does he override your will to sit at home, do something else?

I'd say an emphatic yes. He provides the godly will to go to fellowship - just as He provides the godly desires and counsel in us to will and to act according to His good pleasure.

let us not forsake(to choose not do something that you once did regularly) the assemblin of ourselves to gether.

This is God commanding us. How does this imply that He does not work in us what He commands? St.Augustine did pray - "Father, command as You will - and grant us what You command".

often we choose sin knowingly over god!
the sinner is blinded

Please qualify your two conflicting usages.

the sinner is blinded but he still is held accountable for his choice to sin

And who denied this? Why are you stating this as if the reformed view negates this?

the calvanist make satan all powerful

I don't know about calvinists - but I acknowledge the "exceeding sinfulness of sin" in our flesh - and my moral inability to do what I know is good - thereby depending entirely on God's grace and mercy to work good in me - manifesting His strength and power and glory in my weakness.

 

[jasoncran]

ok. let me ask you this.

first when you sit at home and know you can go to church other then just being tired why then do do that knowing that is a sin?

next, if say you know lusting after a "thing" is a sin, why then do you stil do it? surely if one is saved (truly) and has been taught that lust in that manner is a sin why then do we choose it.

take note. im using my sin that i struggle with. as i know that God is all sufficient and that lust is a sin.what else can that blatently be. we all have that pet sin? a lie that we keep telling a gossip habit. beer, porn, foul mouth or what ever idol we have.

yet we all that are in christ know if we have been with him any length know that the world cant compare yet choose to retain that sin.

 

[ivdavid]

if say you know lusting after a "thing" is a sin, why then do you stil do it?

Are you asking me a question or are you making a point?

Treating it as a question, I'd say that I do evil even when I know it is wrong and even when I desire not to do it because I am carnal and sold under sin. My mind is brought under captivity by sin in my flesh - that's the cause. The solution is in depending entirely upon God to free me from this bondage - that's why we need the Mind of Christ and a regenerated nature out of the grace and mercy of God.

 

[jasoncran]

Are you asking me a question or are you making a point?

Treating it as a question, I'd say that I do evil even when I know it is wrong and even when I desire not to do it because I am carnal and sold under sin. My mind is brought under captivity by sin in my flesh - that's the cause. The solution is in depending entirely upon God to free me from this bondage - that's why we need the Mind of Christ and a regenerated nature out of the grace and mercy of God.

point made for me, we still have to choose that truth and to do it willfully or not., when we fail we choose sin over god's commands!

this doesnt mean we arent under any power of besetting sins,just that in some cases a lust or say an affair starts with something small first. seldom do we jump into sin.

i seriously doubt most adulters drive around looking for one to cheat with. they start slowly becoming less interesting in their spouse or that bad decision of hanging out with that girl when you know she is attractive and you are in a bad rut or day with your wife and she says all those right things.

 

[ivdavid]

A lust is an evil desire, right? A desire that is not according to the will(desire) of God. Do you think man is capable of consciously generating desires in himself - can he choose which desires he'd want to generate and which not to? I know man can curb or resist already generated desires in him but can man self-generate such desires consciously?

 

[jasoncran]

A lust is an evil desire, right? A desire that is not according to the will(desire) of God. Do you think man is capable of consciously generating desires in himself - can he choose which desires he'd want to generate and which not to? I know man can curb or resist already generated desires in him but can man self-generate such desires consciously?

yes and no, satan may tempt us but we do have the inclinations. i dont blame the devil for me loving men in youth while also having the natural desire for women. some men are born with a certian disposition to sin. that satan takes advantage of.

for me it was also male bodies and well more strongly women. and the occult. we all our born with that sin nature. i'm sure you dont deny that.

 

[Levi]

A lust is an evil desire, right? A desire that is not according to the will(desire) of God. Do you think man is capable of consciously generating desires in himself - can he choose which desires he'd want to generate and which not to? I know man can curb or resist already generated desires in him but can man self-generate such desires consciously?

Well, there is confusion over what a 'lust' is.

Classically speaking it is the Greek that simply refers to an ingrained 'desire'. It is of the self.

So from that stand point the classic definition can apply to both good and evil ingrained desires, the difference being whether or not a person is in Christ or still of the fallen nature. This will determine what kind of desires are ingrained in the person, although the born again still have to contend with the fallen man and his base desires, we are commanded to 'crucify' him.

As for one who does not have the Spirirt of God, By what means could he put to death the old nature? He cant, because he has no power to do this within him so how is he able to choose what desires he will have or follow?

The Word lays out the fallen desires and the progression thereof. I personally believe in generational sin and that the son does what he sees the father doing. This has a big impact and bearing on how people behave, Also as Jason points out, the Devil will jump at any opportunity to cultivate a temptation to a man if he sees an opening.

Satan is the one that brings forth temptation. The man depending on his nature will either reject or accept, if he is fully fallen why would he choose not to obey the fallen desires of the flesh?

If he is born again he is in for a struggle but he may in fact put this to death at the cross. This is the ongoing work of the Spirit in our lives. He may also and I believe this is relevant to your question, choose to indulge the sinful nature. If he is fully overcome by it he is worse of than when he started.

From a contemporary stand point we have come to use the word lust in a bad sense, referring only to those desires that are of the fallen nature.

 

[Elijah674]

Hi, some [FALSELY] teach that the saved had NO Free choice in the matter of Salvation. If that were so, there would be no need to have any lost. It would have just been FORCED WORSHIP.

It is the Godhead allowing Theirselves to be put on trial using mankind to have the Eternal Universe [[[SEE]]] that they did not create a faulty angel(s) or man. And that FREEWILL was the only LOVING WAY for Eternity to exist! And that a JUST GOD will be vindicated in the destruction eternally of evil! Obad. 1:16

--Elijah

 

[tessiewebb]

Do robots have an "enslaved/dependent will " ?

I don't think the absence of freewill is "no will" - the absence of freewill is an "enslaved/dependent will".

Freewill implies "our will" to do, say, think as individuals. And of course, regardless of opinions to the contrary, we can and should all be able to agree to that definition. Obviously, before we knew anything about another will, we were able to act. Take a child, for instance, no one teaches him or forces him to lie, steal, etc. He/she acts on their own will. I suppose you could term that the "enslaved/dependent will", but you'd have to qualify what is the slave master or on whom it is dependent. It seems from some of the posts that the devil is to blame. I submit that it would be better to lay the blame on Adam and Eve.

And since that does no good at all, let's say that the devil probably does have some influence in the world, though Scripture has it that Jesus defeated him soundly. That brings us to the ones of us who have Jesus dwelling within. Does the devil still have a say so there? Only in our carnal minds, perhaps, maybe not even there. The OT says we have wicked hearts. The NT says we have a forgiven, renewed character and mind.

Freewill associated with God's presence in one's life is the same will, but refined. We now consciously ask, or wonder, if this or that is His will. We pray, and Scripture says we don't know how to pray as we ought. We come to learn that there is another will, one that is at work in us at all times as in Phil 2, I think it is.

By our free will, we choose His over ours, or what we believe is His, until the Spirit leads us into "all truth". Just as Jesus had the choice to make bread of stones or to cast himself off a pinnacle, so do we. He chose to quote Scripture, by which He lived. We can too. I submit that none of us choose wisely 100% of the time. Because this is the case, again, there is free will, "our will" to choose or not choose to follow what we believe to be His will.

To add to what someone has posted, it is true that it isn't a case of either free will or no will. Free will exists and there is no use saying the opposite would have to be no will. Even as a theory that one doesn't hold up.

The point of this thread, when I started it, was not to debate whether it exists or doesn't. That is ridiculous to my mind. The point was to search out what advantage our free will gives to people who are trying to live godly lives. How to use our free will towards growing in godliness, that sort of thing. So, while I've enjoyed the posts that have wandered from that thread point, I would prefer that we keep it on track, if you will, please.

 

[childeye]

I submit that using the term freewill in your thread has brought about some unintended but profitable back and forth. The problem is as you said your self. Freewill implies "our will". You should have just said "our will" without the unecessary and elusive implications of the adjective free. We all end up arguing semantics otherwise.

So let me address your thread as intended. There is a freewill, set free from the lies that hold captive the carnal mind. The advantages are many for we can pray to God in knowledge of His will and have every reason to believe He will accomplish our petitions since it is His will we seek to accomplish in us and through us. It is like being able to have unlimited wishes within the boundries of that which is good for us, our families and our neighbors.

 

[tessiewebb]

I submit that using the term freewill in your thread has brought about some unintended but profitable back and forth. The problem is as you said your self. Freewill implies "our will". You should have just said "our will" without the unecessary and elusive implications of the adjective free. We all end up arguing semantics otherwise.

So let me address your thread as intended. There is a freewill, set free from the lies that hold captive the carnal mind. The advantages are many for we can pray to God in knowledge of His will and have every reason to believe He will accomplish our petitions since it is His will we seek to accomplish in us and through us. It is like being able to have unlimited wishes within the boundries of that which is good for us, our families and our neighbors.

There are two free wills, ours and God's. Ours is not refined by the necessity of being perfect as is obvious by the actions of it in the world. So, in that sense I have to disagree with you that it is "set free from the lies..."

I like what you said about the "accomplishment of our petitions" and "unlimited wishes within..boundaries..." I'd like to talk about the "unlimited wishes" and particularly their fulfillment or lack thereof, but that is another subject. I am going to start another thread on that called "Unfulfilled prayer requests", if you'd like to come and comment on it.

 

[childeye]

There are two free wills, ours and God's. Ours is not refined by the necessity of being perfect as is obvious by the actions of it in the world. So, in that sense I have to disagree with you that it is "set free from the lies..."

I like what you said about the "accomplishment of our petitions" and "unlimited wishes within..boundaries..." I'd like to talk about the "unlimited wishes" and particularly their fulfillment or lack thereof, but that is another subject. I am going to start another thread on that called "Unfulfilled prayer requests", if you'd like to come and comment on it.

Tessiewebb, One small thing I wish to clarify, Jesus said the will is set free by the Truth. I do not think you disagree with me but merely misunderstood what I said. In other words the will that is a slave to sin needs the Truth to be set free.

 

[tessiewebb]

Tessiewebb, One small thing I wish to clarify, Jesus said the will is set free by the Truth. I do not think you disagree with me but merely misunderstood what I said. In other words the will that is a slave to sin needs the Truth to be set free.

Jesus did not say anything about our wills, to my knowledge. If that is incorrect, please be so kind as to provide the Scripture reference. Paul said he did what he did not want to do and didn't do what he wanted to (Rom 7). He also said sin resided in his members. That does not sound like freed will to me. But I think you will agree he was certainly born-again, Spirit-filled and also filled with Truth in the form of the indwelling Christ Who is Truth. I'm not sure what you felt I misunderstood about your post. If that is important at this point, please refresh my memory. Thanks for your post, childeye

 

[tessiewebb]

I submit that using the term freewill in your thread has brought about some unintended but profitable back and forth. The problem is as you said your self. Freewill implies "our will". You should have just said "our will" without the unecessary and elusive implications of the adjective free. We all end up arguing semantics otherwise.

So let me address your thread as intended. There is a freewill, set free from the lies that hold captive the carnal mind. The advantages are many for we can pray to God in knowledge of His will and have every reason to believe He will accomplish our petitions since it is His will we seek to accomplish in us and through us. It is like being able to have unlimited wishes within the boundries of that which is good for us, our families and our neighbors.

Re-reading this may have answered my own question in the last post replying ot yours. I don't follow why "our will" and "free will" are any different in meaning or terminology. We certainly don't have to try to prove God has free will. Whether the angels do is evident in satan's fall along with the ones who fell with him. So, I guess I'm saying I don't think free will or our will will spur semantic arguments. Someone attempted to clarify the issue by calling it "voluntary" instead of free-will, I don't remember whose post that was, anyway, what the difference is between voluntary and free will, I fail to see.

 

[childeye]

Re-reading this may have answered my own question in the last post replying ot yours. I don't follow why "our will" and "free will" are any different in meaning or terminology. We certainly don't have to try to prove God has free will. Whether the angels do is evident in satan's fall along with the ones who fell with him. So, I guess I'm saying I don't think free will or our will will spur semantic arguments. Someone attempted to clarify the issue by calling it "voluntary" instead of free-will, I don't remember whose post that was, anyway, what the difference is between voluntary and free will, I fail to see.

The term "free" (without restraint or compulsion) in front of "will" (desire) is lost in semantics depending upon whether you are heading a direction away from God or towards God. God being Love however does restrain one's flesh and compels one's Spirit. While flesh does restrain the Spirit of Love and compels us to lust. Freewill is a noun while voluntary is an adjective.

Allow me to explain further. Reasoning is based upon certain supposed realities. While most would agree "voluntary" is an adjective preceding action, others will point out that Moral decision is voluntary according to what master you are serving or putting your trust in. This establishes two opposing directions to apply the term "free", wherein one direction "free" is counted as "bondage" in the other even though both are voluntary. That's where the semantics comes in. When you say "freewill" therefore, which direction are you speaking of? The point being there exists two opposing masters and we can only serve one. As Jesus said , you cannot serve two masters, you cannot be lukewarm.

Then there are those who apply "freewill" only to reasoning. The problem is that the carnal mind with carnal goals and motives is a slave to the flesh and reasons along a different set of values than the spiritual mind. Hence the carnal mind cannot be subject to God eliminating any possibility to voluntarily decide to serve God without a renewed discerning of what the True values are.

You would think Satan has a freewill and yet the scripture says he desires to ascend his throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God. Scripture also says he is proud and with no regard for God. His heart is as hard as the lower millstone and his works are vanity and in him is iniquity. He is therefore blind in his self esteem and has no esteem for God. Is his will free? Or is it a slave to his own foolish ambitions which apparrantly take God for granted?

This scripture is appropriate for consideration:

John 8:32-34

King James Version (KJV)



32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


John 8:43-44
King James Version (KJV)



43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[childeye]

=Elijah674;571642]Hi, some [FALSELY] teach that the saved had NO Free choice in the matter of Salvation. If that were so, there would be no need to have any lost. It would have just been FORCED WORSHIP.

You know Elijah 674. There was a time I thought worshipping God was doing the commandments and my praise was limited to a fear of what would happen to me if I disobeyed. When I finally understood the Christ and his cross, I was awash with a new realization of Who God is as a person, not just a Godhead. Seeing Him as The One Who is the essence and purpose of compassion made Him bigger to me than I can even fathom. He is worthy of worship accordingly and His Glory forces a man to his knees with a true worship. Please excuse the semantics but it was not my free choice lest I diminish the reality of Him which is not comparable to the false image I once held.

It is the Godhead allowing Theirselves to be put on trial using mankind to have the Eternal Universe [[[SEE]]] that they did not create a faulty angel(s) or man. And that FREEWILL was the only LOVING WAY for Eternity to exist! And that a JUST GOD will be vindicated in the destruction eternally of evil! Obad. 1:16

--Elijah

Does a man define god or God define man? Is the value of heaven determined here on earth or is it only questioned and proven here? What is more real, the Person or the reflection? It matters not what we find in the mirror so as to despise or boast in ourselves. The only true freewill is one that is not corrupted in narcicissum.