What am I supposed to make of John 17:3

[sk0rpi0n]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

- John 17:3


Why is God referred to as 'one' and Jesus mentioned seperately as someone sent BY the one true God. This is one of the many verses that make it absolutely clear that God is one and He sent Jesus.

I really dont see any room for ambiguity there...so just how can anyone read that to say "God is triune" and "Jesus is not only sent by the triune God, but also happens to be one of the trinity"?

I know there are other verses that some people like to use to establish their premise of a "trinue" God, but what are we supposed to do with verses that make it explicitly clear that God is one, both in the OT and the NT.

Isnt this a contradiction to the doctrine of "trinity"?


Looking forward to read your opinions on this matter.

Warm Regards.

 

[Rick W]

Is Christ the Word of God or isn't He?

The verse could also be read as:
only true God, and "His Word"

 

[sk0rpi0n]

Is Christ the Word of God or isn't He?

The verse could also be read as:
only true God, and "His Word"

1. Yes. Jesus is described as the word of God.
However, every version of the Bible I have come across mentions John 17:3 distinguishes between "only true God" and "Jesus who was sent". This distinction is made rather explicitly.
And I think its better we understand John 17:3 just for what it is... Because re-translating John 17:3 as "God and his word", amounts to twisting words to distort the original meaning. ;)

 

[Rick W]

That's true. There is distinction between Jesus the man and Jesus the Word of God.
To my wife I'm her husband, to my boss I'm the employee and to the IRS I'm the taxpayer. I'm many but one.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is God's Word of God or is God's Word separate from God?

 

[SonByAdoption]

Just because Jesus is not "only true God" does not mean that he is a lesser god or a false god. He is equal with God and has the same divine nature as the Father because he's God's "only begotten Son" John 3:16 Jesus might not have believed in any trinity but he did know his identity and the fact that he is not the only true God in no way takes away from his divinity.

 

[follower of Christ]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

- John 17:3


Why is God referred to as 'one' and Jesus mentioned seperately as someone sent BY the one true God. This is one of the many verses that make it absolutely clear that God is one and He sent Jesus.

I really dont see any room for ambiguity there...so just how can anyone read that to say "God is triune" and "Jesus is not only sent by the triune God, but also happens to be one of the trinity"?

I know there are other verses that some people like to use to establish their premise of a "trinue" God, but what are we supposed to do with verses that make it explicitly clear that God is one, both in the OT and the NT.

Isnt this a contradiction to the doctrine of "trinity"?


Looking forward to read your opinions on this matter.

Warm Regards.

Hmmm....so you want us to stop accepting the overwhelming evidence that the Trinity concept is accurate for what YOU believe is said in this verse ?

eh...myself I will interpret THIS ONE verse in light of the MANY that show that Jesus IS God.

That Jesus acknowledges the Father as the 'One True God' doesnt negate other scriptures that show that Jesus is PART of that 'One True God, now does it ?

Tell us, was Isaiah lying ?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:6)

 

[Imagican]

Edited: Gabriel Ali

Triune gods were created and accepted LONG before Christ.

IF this 'trinity' was so ALL IMPORTANT as has been offered by 'churches', then we would have been GIVEN this information. This concept was created by a 'particular GROUP' and insisted upon.

Over time, the MAJORITY of those calling themselves 'Christian' began to simply accept it.

Now we find that MOST others have simply accepted it AS offered without even questioning it.

IF there WERE such a concept and it had ANY significance so far as God and HIs Son are concerned, you can BELIEVE that THEY would have offered it up in The Word.

No, not in some VAGUE, mystical, and hazy, manor. They would have TOLD us 'straight out'; WE ARE A TRINITY. Since this is NOT the case, it is unwise to accept ANY such doctrine that is NOT offered up in scripture. NO, I do NOT mean that those that BELIEVE practically ANYTHING can't 'read into scripture' what they CHOOSE. But the doctrine of 'trinity' is NOT defined in scripture.

God is the Father and Christ is the Son. Either this if FACT or those that penned the Word are liars. Not only them but Christ Himself. Since Christ is NOT a liar, then that leaves us to the conclusion that trinity itself is faulty in it's creation.

I NEED NO TRINITY to know God and to know His Son. And if there is ANYONE out there that is able to offer scripture that says DIFFERENT, then please, by all means, offer it up here so that you may enlighten me and others.

If I do not NEED 'trinity', then what is it's PURPOSE. If it cannot bring me one iota closer to God or HIs Son, then what IS IT'S purpose?

Answer these questions and you will find the truth hidden within 'trinity'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rick W]

IF there WERE such a concept and it had ANY significance so far as God and HIs Son are concerned, you can BELIEVE that THEY would have offered it up in The Word.

Is Christ The Word of God?

 

[Imagican]

IF there WERE such a concept and it had ANY significance so far as God and HIs Son are concerned, you can BELIEVE that THEY would have offered it up in The Word.

Is Christ The Word of God?

While Christ was refered to as 'the Word of God' by the apostles, I would choose to follow the definition that Christ Himself offered OF Himself.

Christ stated over and over again that He IS The Son of God. If I simply accept what He offered I am quite sure that I am following that which I was MEANT to follow.

Never were we offered that it was OK to presume ANYTHING that was NOT directly offered up in scripture.

Allow me to ask YOU a question: Did God 'create' His Word? Which came first; God, or His Word?

Most would contend that when 'we' have been offered something concerning eternity that it means a 'literal' eternity. But in reality, could eternity NOT simply be in reference to the existence of man? For what pertains to US would be what WE are offered. That which does NOT pertain to US would have little significance in the 'big picture'.

We have absolutely NO evidence that those who FIRST followed Christ had even HEARD the word 'trinity'. But we DO have evidence that those that introduced 'trinity' into Christianity ALREADY had their 'triune gods' PREVIOUS to their introduction to Christianity.

Paul, Peter, John, or even Christ Himself NEVER EVEN MENTIONED 'trinity'. How UNLIKELY would this be if it were AS important an issue as so many 'seem' to believe?

As stated before, I find NO offering that 'trinity' is needed or necessary for ANYTHING. Christ NEVER offered that we MUST believe in 'trinity'. The apostles NEVER mentioned it being crucial to Salvation or even ANY kind of understanding of it. It was simply NEVER even MENTIONED in The Word.

God IS God and The Son IS The Son. That we have been offered without confusion.

And God is NOT the 'author of confusion' but of PEACE as in all churches of the Saints.

All I have found when discussing or studying 'trinity' IS confusion.

Just a personal observation of course.

I follow ALL the beliefs that we are TOLD through scripture that we are to follow in order to 'follow in TRUTH'. I abandone those that do NOT follow what is offered up in words of understanding. Paul himself stated that he had rather speak five words of wisdom or understanding than 10,000 words in an 'unknown tongue'. I believe that this statement offers MUCH significance in MANY instances when we compare it to our 'beliefs'.

Blessings,

MEC

Oh, and Rick, the term 'word' can have MANY different conotations determined by HOW it is used. Yes, Christ IS the Word of God in that He came and offered us the TRUTH as given Him by the Father. This IS what He stated. In the beginning when God uttered, "Let there be light''. Was this His Word as in Christ? We do NOT KNOW this with any sense of surity.

But we DO know that there have been MANY instructed to offer up God's Word over time. Moses offered God's Word to his people. So too have many. But were these; Christ? Hardly. So, you see, there can be numerous different offerings of WHAT the Word IS.

Rick, is The Word ONLY Christ?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rick W]

IF there WERE such a concept and it had ANY significance so far as God and HIs Son are concerned, you can BELIEVE that THEY would have offered it up in The Word.

Is Christ The Word of God?

While Christ was refered to as 'the Word of God' by the apostles, I would choose to follow the definition that Christ Himself offered OF Himself.

Yes, I can understand why you would view the reference of "the Word of God" by the apostles as an incorrect description of Christ.

 

[mondar]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

- John 17:3


Why is God referred to as 'one' and Jesus mentioned seperately....

Because Jesus was one that was separate from the only true God, referring to the Father. I guess we could ask the question "in what way was he separate."

Now can you answer the question, if Jesus was not God, then why does Paul teach...

Col 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

 

[mondar]

[quote="Imagican
Allow me to ask YOU a question: Did God 'create' His Word? Which came first; God, or His Word?
[/quote]

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
Do you agree that there was nothing made, that was not made by Christ. He is the creator.

I would agree that Christ eternally "proceeds from" the Father. In this way Christ had no beginning. He was never created, but eternally proceeds from the Father.

Is there any passage that states that God "created" Christ?

I forget where the verse concerning "proceeds" is found, if you need, I can actually work on it and not be lazy.

 

[Imagican]

Firstly Mondar, what existed BEFORE this earth was created? How about BEFORE light was introdued into the world?

You see, man, in his infinite desire to place HIMSELF in a position of 'greatness' has created the ILLUSION that WE were the 'beginning' PERIOD. Far from it. For IF God truly IS eternal, then there was most CERTAINLY a time BEFORE the 'beginning' that WE have been offered. That means that we have been told the history of what pertains to US. We have NEVER been offered what was BEFORE us. But we DO know that there was a 'war in heaven' previous to mankind being 'created'. This in itself PROVES that 'in the beginning' is ONLY in relation to MANKINDS existence. OUR BEGINNNING. The beginning of that which pertains to US, (mankind).

The Bible PLAINLY states that Christ IS the 'firstborn' of EVERY creature. It also states that He was MADE to be what HE IS. And IF Christ was 'made' into flesh, WHO do you reacon DID the making?

Whether Christ was instrumental in the creation of the universe is certainly debatable from a Biblical standpoint. What I would have to ask is WHY would God NOT have revealed that His SON created the universe FROM the BEGINNING. Why would this be HIDDEN from the Jews, from the Christians, from EVERYONE for THOUSANDS of years? Wouldn't He WANT us to know and follow the TRUTH?

So, when we take into consideration that the Bible was inspired by God but written by men, at this point we can SEE that there is much that has been altered and misinterpreted by those that insisted that THEIR interpretation was the ONLY interpretation. Anyone that is unaware of such alteration has simply NOT done ANY study of the formation of the present day Bibles.

So, in answer to your question: I have NOT found where Christ IS The Creator. Whether He was instrumental in creation is irrelevant to me considering that we speak here NOT of such issues but one's concerning "TRINITY".

Now, I have answer YOUR question, answer this one for me: Where in scripture does the word 'trinity' even exist?

And then: HOW can such an IMPORTANT word or concept have been COMPLETELY ommitted from The Word?

Then: WHO 'created' this 'trinity'. WHERE did it COME from?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and EVEN if Christ WERE the 'Creator', how does the concept of 'trinity' fit INTO this.

But what's an even better question is the one that I asked before: Why was this TRINITY hidden from GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE? Are we dealing with a 'deceptive God'? I think NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[follower of Christ]

Its amazing how those professing belief in God cannot accept HIS word that shows very much so that the trinity concept is fact....

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:6)

maybe Isaiah was a lunatic... :crazy

 

[follower of Christ]

Oh, and EVEN if

'even if'....that says it all.
Clearly you havent actually READ the scriptures in the matter.

 

[follower of Christ]

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
(Joh 20:28-29)

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(Heb 1:8)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(Joh 1:1-3)

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Col 1:16-17)

 

[Rick W]

I thought "the Word of God" was a good description of Christ. Hey, if it's good enough for the apostles in that they referred to Him as such then it's certainly good enough for me.


Christ was created?
When did that happen?


Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[mondar]

'

Firstly Mondar, what existed BEFORE this earth was created? How about BEFORE light was introdued into the world?

You see, man, in his infinite desire to place HIMSELF in a position of 'greatness' has created the ILLUSION that WE were the 'beginning' PERIOD. Far from it. For IF God truly IS eternal, then there was most CERTAINLY a time BEFORE the 'beginning' that WE have been offered. That means that we have been told the history of what pertains to US. We have NEVER been offered what was BEFORE us. But we DO know that there was a 'war in heaven' previous to mankind being 'created'. This in itself PROVES that 'in the beginning' is ONLY in relation to MANKINDS existence. OUR BEGINNNING. The beginning of that which pertains to US, (mankind).

Please remember that I was discussing verse 3. It is noticeable you did not even refer to verse 3. Nevertheless, lets look at the construction of verse 1 and the context of the phrase "in the beginning."

Three things happen "in the beginning."
* The word existed.
* The word existed with God
* The word was God.

I love the balance of verse 1. We see the separate personhood of Christ because he was "with God." But we also see the unity of the Logos and God because the Word was God. It is actually grammatically impossible to separate the concept of Logos from God. There is a predicate nominative construction because both the word "logos" and "God" are nominative case nouns.

So then, the phrase "in the beginning" is referring to the Logos and God.

'

The Bible PLAINLY states that Christ IS the 'firstborn' of EVERY creature.

Yes, but do you understand the concept of "firstborn?" The term does not refer to "first created." It refers the position of Christ at the head of everything.

'

It also states that He was MADE to be what HE IS. And IF Christ was 'made' into flesh, WHO do you reacon DID the making?

No, it does not. Where does the scripture say Christ "was made to be what he is?" What verse?

'

Whether Christ was instrumental in the creation of the universe is certainly debatable from a Biblical standpoint. What I would have to ask is WHY would God NOT have revealed that His SON created the universe FROM the BEGINNING.

LOL, I don't get it. How can you read John 1:3 and get this? Christ "made everything that was made."

'

Why would this be HIDDEN from the Jews, from the Christians, from EVERYONE for THOUSANDS of years? Wouldn't He WANT us to know and follow the TRUTH?

At this point, I think you are referring to the doctrine of the trinity. The doctrine of the trinity was not explicit in the OT, but was implicitly there. There are several ways to see this. When God made man, he said "let us make man in our image?" Who was God speaking to? Are we created in the image of God and angels? Did God and angels create us?

Even one of the names of God "Eloheim" is a plural word for deity. So then, Gods are one.


So, when we take into consideration that the Bible was inspired by God but written by men, at this point we can SEE that there is much that has been altered and misinterpreted by those that insisted that THEIR interpretation was the ONLY interpretation. Anyone that is unaware of such alteration has simply NOT done ANY study of the formation of the present day Bibles.[/quote]
I am not sure if you understand concepts between interpretation, and inspiration. They are very different. Of course no one changed the bible. Can you show me any manuscripts to demonstrate this claim? Of course I admit some scribes made some minor mistakes in copying, but nothing more.

'

So, in answer to your question: I have NOT found where Christ IS The Creator.

Hint, read John 1:3 again.

'

Whether He was instrumental in creation is irrelevant to me considering that we speak here NOT of such issues but one's concerning "TRINITY".

Now, I have answer YOUR question, answer this one for me: Where in scripture does the word 'trinity' even exist?

And then: HOW can such an IMPORTANT word or concept have been COMPLETELY ommitted from The Word?

Then: WHO 'created' this 'trinity'. WHERE did it COME from?

Blessings,

MEC

No, you did not even come close to addressing what I said. However, the word trinity does not exist, but it does not have to use the word. The scripture does not use many words we use as theological concepts. That does not mean the concept is not in the scriptures.

My first question would be can you even define the concept of trinity correctly?

 

[SonByAdoption]

Thankyou so much for making this topic. I'd like to talk about the word true.

According to Strong's the word "true" in greek is "ἀληθινÌ alÄ“thinos...b)it contrasts realities with their semblances"

Paul says that the sanctuary that was on earth was a copy of the ORIGINAL one that was in heaven. "... the TRUE tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man""For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the TRUE; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us" Hbr8:2;9:24

Jesus might not be the "only true/original God" but he is God's only true Son.

"Adam... begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth" Gen5:3 Like all humans Adam's son looked alot like him but when God had his "only begotten son" in eternity He was exactly like God in everyway for the Bible tells us that Jesus is "is the image of the invisible God""and the express image of his person"Col 1:15; Hbr 1:3

According to Strong's the greek word for "express image" is "ÇαÃÂακÄήàcharaktÄ“r...precise reproduction in every respect"

Jesus was born in eternity with self existance just like God knowing all things just like God and having all power and having omnipresence.
So even if Jesus is not the only true God or any part of any triune God he is equal with God in divinity because just as we give our children our human nature God gave His Son His divine nature.