[_ Old Earth _] What Brought About Order In The Universe

[Drew]

You're assuming a universe like ours.

Well, yes, of course I am. This should be no surprise - it is our universe that we are discussing. So for the present, I stick by my claim that our universe at least hints to design - a number of key variables can only lie in a narrow range of values or no structures at all can arise.

Of course, I am open to the possible existence of other universes.

Even though I am talking about our universe, it is interesting to speculate about possible universes. At least we can take a shot at constraining the problem - guessing at the conditions that must apply in any conceivable universe in order for life to arise. We are obviously running up against the limits of human knowledge and we need to acknowledge that just because we cannot conceive of something, this does not make it impossible.

For example, does the general notion of "structure" generalize to all possible universes. What about "physicality"? What about "lawfulness" - the presence of regularities in the way "things" work. My intuition is that lawful behaviour is necessary for a universe to contain anything other than pure chaos. And while other universes may have different laws, it can still probably be assumed that structures (made up of whatever the fundamental building blocks are that populate that universe) are a necessary pre-condition for anything that we might represent as "living". Much more could be said.

In short, I suspect that we can indeed say something meaningful about even the most exotic of universes. Things get awfully wild and speculative, but I think that certain fundamental concepts, such as the necessity of physical structure as a pre-condition for life, must apply in any possible universe we could imagine.

 

[keebs]

Well, yes, of course I am. This should be no surprise - it is our universe that we are discussing.

I wasn't just talking about our universe...I was talking about all possible types of universes. As long as there is some sort of order and interaction then evolution is possible...our universe is not something finely tuned for evolution.

 

[Drew]

Well, yes, of course I am. This should be no surprise - it is our universe that we are discussing.

I wasn't just talking about our universe...I was talking about all possible types of universes. As long as there is some sort of order and interaction then evolution is possible...our universe is not something finely tuned for evolution.

OK. But it is very much an open question as to whether fine tuning is required to bring about order you talk about in the first place - you cannot just assume that structure and order will arise in any old Universe.

 

[keebs]

OK. But it is very much an open question as to whether fine tuning is required to bring about order you talk about in the first place - you cannot just assume that structure and order will arise in any old Universe.

I'm not...I'm just saying that if it's there than evolution is possible...you could come up with literally infinite possible universes that are in no way similar to ours yet it would have order.

 

[Sabazi]

You're assuming that the many worlds theory is true.

 

[keebs]

You're assuming that the many worlds theory is true.

No, I'm not. I said that there's no fine tuning in our universe, and that it is possible for life to arise in a universe that's not like ours. I didn't say those universes exist, I just said that it's possible for life to evolve in other universes if they existed, or if our universe didn't turn out to be like it is, that doesn't rule out the possibility of life evolving.

 

[bibleberean]

http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter ... /7367.aspx

What About ETIs?
Author: Dave Hunt
Publication Date: 4/1/1995


"Any possibility that intelligent life on earth or elsewhere evolved by chance can be quickly dismissed. Eminent British astronomer SirFred Hoyle points out that "even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup" from which life is made, the chance of producing the basic enzymes of life by random processes without intelligent direction would be approximately one in 10 with 40,000 zeros after it. The impossibility of that number can be seen in the following illustration. The likelihood of reaching out and by chance plucking a particular atom out of the universe would be about 1 in 10 with 80 zeros after it. If every atom in this universe became another universe, the chance of reaching out at random and plucking a particular atom out of all of those universes would be 1 in 10 with 160 zeros after it.

Hoyle then explains why this completely impossible theory is still honored, and accuses the evolutionists of self-interest, unfair pressure, and dishonesty:"

 

[Barbarian]

This is kind of silly, because Hoyle was himself an evolutionist. Hoyle knew that evolution was true.

What he objected to was a different theory, called abiogenesis. He thought that life was too complicated to have occured on Earth, but had been delivered here from somewhere else, and evolved from there.

Hoyle's error depends on the notion that living things popped into existance all at once, in completed form. It is like arguing that God must have created the New York Stock exchange, because the likelihood of it all just happening one day by chance is so small as to be effectively impossible. But that's not how it happened.

Here's a way to test Hoyle's Folly:

Take a deck of cards, and shuffle them carefully. Then deal them out, one at a time, and note the order. The probability of that order is

1/52! or about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000012

But you got it on the first try. Try it again, and you will again get a stupendously unlikely event. And keep in mind, this is random, while abiogenesis is not random.

Those are the two major blunders in Hoyle's Folly.