What Church is This?

[JudaicChristian]

God gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins.

St. Augustine understood this well:

"Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven, lost from their own hands, have been given to the Church."
Christian Combat 31,33, 396 A.D.

You say that you are not a Catholic, but yet you keep promoting Catholic beliefs. Why?

 

[lecoop]

[

Saint Augustine was not very wise: he did not recognize the danger of mixing church and state, so put them together, and RUINED the church. Therefore, NO QUOTE from him is worth reading. He knew very little of the truth of God's word.

Coop

 

[chestertonrules]

[
You say that you are not a Catholic, but yet you keep promoting Catholic beliefs. Why?

When did I say that I am not a Catholic?

I was born again in a Baptist Church, but I am a proud convert to the Catholic Church.

Jesus only started one Church.

 

[chestertonrules]

[

Saint Augustine was not very wise: he did not recognize the danger of mixing church and state, so put them together, and RUINED the church. Therefore, NO QUOTE from him is worth reading. He knew very little of the truth of God's word.

Coop

My guess is that you know little to nothing about St. Augustine.

What change did St. Augustine make that ruined the Church?

 

[watchman F]

haha, you don;t really believe that do ya.

Yes, I believe the bible:

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;

You believe the pope not scripture

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="watchman F":23i8x24w]
haha, you don;t really believe that do ya.

Yes, I believe the bible:

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven;

You believe the pope not scripture[/quote:23i8x24w]


The Pope and I both believe that scripture is the Word of God.

We might interpret it differently than you, however. Keep in mind that Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

His Church wrote, compiled, preserves, and proclaims the Word.

 

[watchman F]

The Pope and I both believe that scripture is the Word of God.

We might interpret it differently than you, however. Keep in mind that Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

His Church wrote, compiled, preserves, and proclaims the Word.

You are right His church did this, however the pope is not a part of that church.

 

[Elijah674]

[
You say that you are not a Catholic, but yet you keep promoting Catholic beliefs. Why?

When did I say that I am not a Catholic?

I was born again in a Baptist Church, but I am a proud convert to the Catholic Church.

Jesus only started one Church.

Wow! And all the Baptist here are as silent as the Dead And 'what church is this??'

 

[Elijah674]

Notice the ending of this & see if Paul was sent to Pope Peter? t
Gal.1
[1] Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

[2] And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

.....

[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

(Such as Apostle succession! verse 1 ibid.)

[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[10] For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

[12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

[13] For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

[16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

[17] Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

[18] Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

[19] But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

 

[lecoop]

Notice the ending of this & see if Paul was sent to Pope Peter? t
Gal.1
[1] Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

[2] And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

.....

[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

(Such as Apostle succession! verse 1 ibid.)

[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[10] For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

[12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

[13] For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

[14] And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

[16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

[17] Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

[18] Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

[19] But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Very good!!
Not to mention:

Galatians 2:6
But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Therefore, the Gentile church, of what we are a part, started with PAUL, not with Peter. Peter was called by God to minister to the Jews.

Coop

 

[chestertonrules]

[

Therefore, the Gentile church, of what we are a part, started with PAUL, not with Peter. Peter was called by God to minister to the Jews.

Coop

Acts 15
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

 

[lecoop]

[

Therefore, the Gentile church, of what we are a part, started with PAUL, not with Peter. Peter was called by God to minister to the Jews.

Coop

Acts 15
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Acts 16:6
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

So, they went WEST instead of East. From West the gospel went North to England, and from England (and other parts of Europe) to the America's.

Coop

 

[chestertonrules]

[

Therefore, the Gentile church, of what we are a part, started with PAUL, not with Peter. Peter was called by God to minister to the Jews.

Coop

Acts 15
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Acts 16:6
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

So, they went WEST instead of East. From West the gospel went North to England, and from England (and other parts of Europe) to the America's.

Coop

The apostles were given the commission to go throughout the world, and that's what they did.

I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[lecoop]

Acts 15
7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Acts 16:6
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

So, they went WEST instead of East. From West the gospel went North to England, and from England (and other parts of Europe) to the America's.

Coop

The apostles were given the commission to go throughout the world, and that's what they did.

I'm not sure what your point is.

My point is, the churches in the USA owe their origin to PAUL, not to Peter.

Coop

 

[chestertonrules]

[

The apostles were given the commission to go throughout the world, and that's what they did.

I'm not sure what your point is.[/quote]


My point is, the churches in the USA owe their origin to PAUL, not to Peter.

Coop[/quote]

If that was your point, then you failed to make it.

FYI:

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority,that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

 

[lecoop]

[

The apostles were given the commission to go throughout the world, and that's what they did.

I'm not sure what your point is.

My point is, the churches in the USA owe their origin to PAUL, not to Peter.

Coop[/quote]

If that was your point, then you failed to make it.

FYI:

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority,that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).[/quote]


I am sorry, but that is just not scripture.

Where you think Martin Luther was, spiritually speaking?

Coop

 

[chestertonrules]

[


I am sorry, but that is just not scripture.

Where you think Martin Luther was, spiritually speaking?

Coop

Martin Luther was a Catholic priest who let his personal ambition get in the way of his vows to God and the Church.

His views were quite Catholic, however.

For example:

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).


And this, regarding the Eucharist:

"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.â€

–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391

 

[lecoop]

[


I am sorry, but that is just not scripture.

Where you think Martin Luther was, spiritually speaking?

Coop

Martin Luther was a Catholic priest who let his personal ambition get in the way of his vows to God and the Church.

His views were quite Catholic, however.

For example:

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).


And this, regarding the Eucharist:

"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.â€

–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391

Why then, did they want to burn him at the stake?
Why did they burn John Huss at the stake?

Quote:
"He is famed for having been burned at the stake by civil authorities for the propagation of what the Catholic Church considered to be his heretical views of ecclesiology, the Eucharist, and other points of theology, as the civil authorities of that time generally saw heresy as a criminal offense. Hus was a key predecessor to the Protestant movement of the 16th century, and his teachings had a strong influence on the states of Europe, most immediately in the approval for the existence of a reformist Bohemian religious denomination, and, more than a century later, on Martin Luther himself"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hus

The truth is, MOST of what the Catholic church taught in those days was TRUE heresy, while men Like John Huss and Martin Luther got some little revelation knowledge of the TRUTH.

Do you have any idea what the Protestant movement was all about? The words Jesus spoke to the Pharasiees were TWICE as true of the Catholic church in the days of John Huss. I mean words like vipers, whited seplecures full of dead mens bones. Sorry, but God was on the side of John Huss and Martin Luther.

Coop

 

[westtexas]

Martin Luther was a Catholic priest who let his personal ambition get in the way of his vows to God and the Church.

His views were quite Catholic, however.

I'm curious about your statement here. In the Catholic Church Origins thread you quote from quite a bit of Martin Luther's work and disagree with all of it, now you seem to embrace him.
Westtexas

 

[Elf]

Matt 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."


If this Church apostasized or taught lies, wouldn't that mean that the gates of Hell had prevailed?


Given the promise of Jesus, isn't it safe to assume that this Church is still with us?

I will let St. Augustine speak, maybe you will listen to him?

AUGUSTINE: In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable.........Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).


And I tell you...‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ...Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer ...........The Works of Saint Augustine, Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is like a breath of fresh air, knowing that many important early church Fathers, agree with the teachings of the Protestant Reformation. For many years I believed differently, but after looking into there writings, deeply, I now see there writings in truth. I believe this is the way in which they hoped they would be seen, in there truth!