What Do Muslims Really Mean When They Invoke The Name Of Jesus?

[smaller]

But that would mean that God creates some people to be damned and some to be saved due to the one's who are to be saved being predestined to respond to the resonance of truth that God sends them.
Making free will a total fiction and free choice as well.

None of us employed freewill or choice in our factual bindings.

None of us employ freewill to remove them either.

 

[tinykitten]

I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

 

[smaller]

I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

No different than the facts we are told from scripture. It is not the freewill of anyone who blinds them to the Gospel.

They are blinded in mind by the god of this world. (2 Cor. 4:4)

When we share the Gospel, we should have more awareness of the status of the captive and the captives captor.

Only one of those parties can hear. The other will by nature, resist.

There is more than one will going on within them, and one of those wills is not the will of the person. It is the will of a superior force that is not them.

 

[childeye]

But that would mean that God creates some people to be damned and some to be saved due to the one's who are to be saved being predestined to respond to the resonance of truth that God sends them.
Making free will a total fiction and free choice as well.

The true Gospel will cause people to ponder, "why then does God judge us?"

According to scripture, mankind was created innocent, not choosing between good and evil. And it is the devil that corrupted the minds of mankind with a false image of God. Therefore it cannot be said that God created some people to be damned and some to be saved. It can be said that He will have mercy where He will have mercy, and He will harden whom He will harden.

Freewill or free choice is actually an equivocation in the mind, a foundational lie upon which all other lies are built. This can easily be proven. Because one cannot establish their autonomy upon the disobedience of the Almighty along side obedience of the Almighty. In fact, unfaith and pride must first be present in the disobedient person so as to be enabled to disobey God, and this is not consistent with a free will, or rather a will that would be deemed as free. The only will that is truly a free will, is that will that is ruled by the Truth that God has established. One must have faith in God's character and the humility to realize that God knows better than we do, so as to be obedient. Hence Jesus says, the Truth shall set you free.

There is a Truth that God has established. And this Truth serves all men without respect of persons. Within this Truth God has established two doors, one for the proud and one for the humble. Through the door that the proud will choose, they will learn humility. Through the door that the humble will choose, they will see God and praise Him and Love Him from the heart. Not because they decided to, but because He is worthy. True worship is drawn out by the object of worship. Our belief in our autonomy is really just the same vanity as that of Satan.

 

[tinykitten]

Well, free will is actually defined by Oxford dictionary as, the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

As to the rest of your observation and it may be presumed, personal exercise of faith and practice, there's nothing I can say. There's so much wrong with that observation and yet it being something you believe to be true, is something you will have to live with . This isn't a debate about personal faith. It is a discussion as to why Islam is essentially a false faith. A satanic faith.

God's peace be with you.

The true Gospel will cause people to ponder, "why then does God judge us?"

According to scripture, mankind was created innocent, not choosing between good and evil. And it is the devil that corrupted the minds of mankind with a false image of God. Therefore it cannot be said that God created some people to be damned and some to be saved. It can be said that He will have mercy where He will have mercy, and He will harden whom He will harden.

Freewill or free choice is actually an equivocation in the mind, a foundational lie upon which all other lies are built. This can easily be proven. Because one cannot establish their autonomy upon the disobedience of the Almighty along side obedience of the Almighty. In fact, unfaith and pride must first be present in the disobedient person so as to be enabled to disobey God, and this is not consistent with a free will, or rather a will that would be deemed as free. The only will that is truly a free will, is that will that is ruled by the Truth that God has established. One must have faith in God's character and the humility to realize that God knows better than we do, so as to be obedient. Hence Jesus says, the Truth shall set you free.

There is a Truth that God has established. And this Truth serves all men without respect of persons. Within this Truth God has established two doors, one for the proud and one for the humble. Through the door that the proud will choose, they will learn humility. Through the door that the humble will choose, they will see God and praise Him and Love Him from the heart. Not because they decided to, but because He is worthy. True worship is drawn out by the object of worship. Our belief in our autonomy is really just the same vanity as that of Satan.

 

[childeye]

Well, free will is actually defined by Oxford dictionary as, the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

As to the rest of your observation and it may be presumed, personal exercise of faith and practice, there's nothing I can say. There's so much wrong with that observation and yet it being something you believe to be true, is something you will have to live with . This isn't a debate about personal faith. It is a discussion as to why Islam is essentially a false faith. A satanic faith.

God's peace be with you.

I have called freewill a foundational lie. Because I can't see what true praise I would have for God as my wisdom and goodness, if a man's wisdom and goodness is at his own discretion? I therefore can't help but challenge the assertion that people have a freewill.

The definition for freewill above, is very much in line with what I think it means. Of course we are all sinners by the circumstance of being made flesh. And it is our fate to die apart from God's saving hand. So according to that definition above, since we do not have the discretion to not be a sinner and our hope is in Christ, we do not have a freewill.... Moreover this is on topic, since I feel Islam believes in an aspect of freewill which they base their faith upon. So it is, that freewill means that anyone who freely chooses to do bad, could have freely chosen to do good. If a man does not choose the good, then he must be recompensed an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth as a just payment for such behavior. These are the ways of this world wherein we justify our acts of violence against one another. No thought is given to the need for a pure Love in a mans soul so as to be made whole and rich in mercy and understanding. Nor does anyone seek to know what powers rule in his or her mind and heart when they are convinced the will is free. And therefore, no such powers exist that could deceive a person into doing bad while thinking they are doing good.... Hence I say that there is a false image of god in the hearts of men who would return evil for evil. For they think that God, like themselves, chooses between good and evil. They imagine that God expects mankind to be good and benevolent of their own free choice, even because men are able to decide to be good. This is why they seek to bring sharia law, to make others be good. And this is why they also believe they are serving God in doing so. They do not see the lies that are the hypocrisy that would pervert a pure heart, even the self glory in one's own righteous behavior that comes with such a belief. Nor do they recognize that only God's Spirit, which is Love, is what makes a man good on the inside. Therefore Jesus says that the Pharisees are like sepulchers, all white on the outside but on the inside full of dead men's bones.

But in Christianity, I believe in the Christ, who describes us as wicked, without goodness, and already dead in our sins. Blessed is he who is not offended by the Christ. Christianity does not teach that we can be good by our own volition. It teaches that we must be reborn through the Spirit of God so as to be like God. And we need the counsel of the Holy Spirit, that we may have knowledge of Truth for our sick minds, and that our blindness be removed. Christ does not speak of our wills being free. It speaks of our wills being held captive and slaves to sin, destined to death apart from God's merciful saving hand.

 

[tinykitten]

OK.

 

[jasonc]

I have called freewill a foundational lie. Because I can't see what true praise I would have for God as my wisdom and goodness, if a man's wisdom and goodness is at his own discretion? I therefore can't help but challenge the assertion that people have a freewill.

The definition for freewill above, is very much in line with what I think it means. Of course we are all sinners by the circumstance of being made flesh. And it is our fate to die apart from God's saving hand. So according to that definition above, since we do not have the discretion to not be a sinner and our hope is in Christ, we do not have a freewill.... Moreover this is on topic, since I feel Islam believes in an aspect of freewill which they base their faith upon. So it is, that freewill means that anyone who freely chooses to do bad, could have freely chosen to do good. If a man does not choose the good, then he must be recompensed an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth as a just payment for such behavior. These are the ways of this world wherein we justify our acts of violence against one another. No thought is given to the need for a pure Love in a mans soul so as to be made whole and rich in mercy and understanding. Nor does anyone seek to know what powers rule in his or her mind and heart when they are convinced the will is free. And therefore, no such powers exist that could deceive a person into doing bad while thinking they are doing good.... Hence I say that there is a false image of god in the hearts of men who would return evil for evil. For they think that God, like themselves, chooses between good and evil. They imagine that God expects mankind to be good and benevolent of their own free choice, even because men are able to decide to be good. This is why they seek to bring sharia law, to make others be good. And this is why they also believe they are serving God in doing so. They do not see the lies that are the hypocrisy that would pervert a pure heart, even the self glory in one's own righteous behavior that comes with such a belief. Nor do they recognize that only God's Spirit, which is Love, is what makes a man good on the inside. Therefore Jesus says that the Pharisees are like sepulchers, all white on the outside but on the inside full of dead men's bones.

But in Christianity, I believe in the Christ, who describes us as wicked, without goodness, and already dead in our sins. Blessed is he who is not offended by the Christ. Christianity does not teach that we can be good by our own volition. It teaches that we must be reborn through the Spirit of God so as to be like God. And we need the counsel of the Holy Spirit, that we may have knowledge of Truth for our sick minds, and that our blindness be removed. Christ does not speak of our wills being free. It speaks of our wills being held captive and slaves to sin, destined to death apart from God's merciful saving hand.

uhm we have a choice to sin or not, we can reject God. if that wasn't possible at all there would be this in the torah.

choose whether blessing or cursing. there is a command to choice in that context. we aren't zombies. God didn't make us to love him like that. he wants us to decide to love him or not after he reveals himself to us. your position is that of a hyper Calvinist that we have no need to witness as their is NO free will. its not even that taught by calvin its limited free will. we have the choice to follow the Lord or not.

 

[tinykitten]

uhm we have a choice to sin or not, we can reject God. if that wasn't possible at all there would be this in the torah.

choose whether blessing or cursing. there is a command to choice in that context. we aren't zombies. God didn't make us to love him like that. he wants us to decide to love him or not after he reveals himself to us. your position is that of a hyper Calvinist that we have no need to witness as their is NO free will. its not even that taught by calvin its limited free will. we have the choice to follow the Lord or not.

I think what gives structure to hyper-Calvinism are the verses in scripture that refer to God's having predestined the world as well as people's lives and before the womb.
There is a school of thought that posits such hyper-ideology fails because if it is valid it necessarily means, if humans have no will of their own, that God created people for the express purpose of sending them to Hell.
Being they were made absent of the will to save themselves.

 

[jasonc]

I think what gives structure to hyper-Calvinism are the verses in scripture that refer to God's having predestined the world as well as people's lives and before the womb.
There is a school of thought that posits such hyper-ideology fails because if it is valid it necessarily means, if humans have no will of their own, that God created people for the express purpose of sending them to Hell.
Being they were made absent of the will to save themselves.

take note that not all Calvinists think that way. most don't and go and preach the word.

 

[tinykitten]

take note that not all Calvinists think that way. most don't and go and preach the word.

Understood. My remarks concerned your attention to the hyper-Calvinist.

 

[jasonc]

Understood. My remarks concerned your attention to the hyper-Calvinist.

ok. he does come across that way. I will await the response to my statement. I have debated him before on this stuff. I never heard him say until now that we have no free will.

 

[tinykitten]

Amazingly enough, I've run into a number of Christians who argue that very thing. I too await their reply.

 

[childeye]

uhm we have a choice to sin or not, we can reject God.

That is an equivocation without any basis of factual evidence. In other words no created being can both trust in God and reject Him. Moreover the Gospel shows that men reject God in the form of the Christ even because God has chosen the lowly rich in faith, to put to naught the high and mighty so that no flesh may glory. Therefore those without faith reject Christ because they see foolishness at the cross. While those who have faith, see the divine Love on the cross.

if that wasn't possible at all there would be this in the torah.

choose whether blessing or cursing. there is a command to choice in that context. we aren't zombies. God didn't make us to love him like that. he wants us to decide to love him or not after he reveals himself to us. your position is that of a hyper Calvinist that we have no need to witness as their is NO free will. its not even that taught by calvin its limited free will. we have the choice to follow the Lord or not.

We know that given the choice between life or death, no man has secured life through the works of the law. That is why as a Christian my hope is in Christ as my savior and not in my freewill choice and ability to perform the law. We also know that the law has condemned all men to death because of sin that has been in mankind since the fall of Adam. We therefore know that the law was a means to prove that all flesh is weak and unable to secure life despite the fact that mankind would choose life.

Moreover you have conflated the term choice/option with the term choice/decision. So it is that you say that we are commanded to choose between life or death in the Old Testament. That is therefore an ultimatum. Otherwise, when God commanded to choose between life or death, with our supposed freewill we could just say, no I don't want to and I don't have to.

Now about Loving God. No man chooses to Love anybody. Love is the impetus for doing what is right, not the product of our decision. God is Love. I don't just decide he exists or not.

 

[jasonc]

uhm so im lying? really. there were isrealites that know God and rejected him. they died in the wilderness, see the torah on that. yes man can choose NOT to serve god. you would have a case if the torah didn't say this. in deutermony 28.

but it says choose.

connection. the idea of the indentured serveant is found in the torah that if a man loves his master on the year of the release he can CHOOSE to be his slave forever and a public method of ear piercing is done to show that. that is what paul means but that serveant may be owned but he still has a will to choose to be a bad serveant or a good one and is rewarded as such.

DONT accuse me of equivocation again. I will report that.

 

[childeye]

I think what gives structure to hyper-Calvinism are the verses in scripture that refer to God's having predestined the world as well as people's lives and before the womb.
There is a school of thought that posits such hyper-ideology fails because if it is valid it necessarily means, if humans have no will of their own, that God created people for the express purpose of sending them to Hell.
Being they were made absent of the will to save themselves.

Actually I am not a Calvinist. God created man with a will. It was never a will free from God as our conscience proves. However, as it becomes enslaved by sin it is possible, by spinning of the terms, that one can count himself free from God while never realizing he is a slave to sin. For God's Word is our very sentience. To deny Him is to deny ourselves.

 

[childeye]

uhm so im lying? really.

More accurately, and without any patronizing, you are confusing the terms.

there were isrealites that know God and rejected him. they died in the wilderness, see the torah on that. yes man can choose NOT to serve god. you would have a case if the torah didn't say this. in deutermony 28.

but it says choose.

I don't deny that a man can choose to deny God. I am saying the unfaithful will deny God. I am saying that deciding to deny God is the product of profound ignorance and not the evidence of a freewill.

I would challenge your conclusion that these who denied God, knew God. Did they know He is faithful? Did they know He is worthy to be trusted? Of course they did not since they counted Him as untrustworthy by murmuring against Him. The fact that God made them walk the desert for forty years, should tell you that God is in control of their fate. They didn't just freely choose to walk the desert of their own freewill.

the idea of the indentured serveant is found in the torah that if a man loves his master on the year of the release he can CHOOSE to be his slave forever and a public method of ear piercing is done to show that. that is what paul means but that serveant may be owned but he still has a will to choose to be a bad serveant or a good one and is rewarded as such.

The idea of Christianity is that we are all servants to one another even as God serves us all. Such is the mind of Christ.

DONT accuse me of equivocation again. I will report that.

Take it easy. It's not personal. I can't help it that I see ambiguity in your choice of words. It is not my fault that you conflate choice/option with choice/ decision. Note that one meaning of the term "choice" has to do with deciding voluntarily, which does indeed pertain to the will. The other meaning of the term "choice" is referring to the options that are present that must be navigated by necessity and not voluntarily. This pertains to a matter of circumstance that is apart from the will. In other words, just because there is a choice to be made and a choice must be made and therefore a choice will be made, this is not proof of freewill as you have asserted. Any choice/decision made out of necessity does not constitute a free choice.

I'll use the freewill dictionary definition given, to make my point. "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion".

The presentation of two options, to keep these commandments or die, is therefore a choice/option that has been placed in front of the one it is presented to. It is therefore a choice/decision made out of necessity, which disqualifies it as a choice made freely. Moreover for a freewill to be seen, it must actually keep the law not simply decide to keep the law and yet not keep it.

5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question.7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

 

[jasonc]

you love redefining words to your liking.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivocate
I clearly didn't do that. I said man has a will and that god allows it. that we have limits is implied ie we don't have the power on our to be sinless. I figured since we both claim Christ we should know that.

im clearly been told im mistaken. I also didn't bring up works. nor how Jesus saves. I said that God allows some will, its implied by previous post. on the idea of the serveant. he choose to be one.

does god tell you how many steps to take? when to eat, type? move bowels? no he doesn't. we have biological proceses that tell us to do that and a mind that decides what to post. he doesn't make us do anything we don't want to do. he can at times albeit rare touch the sinner to say something that is of his will and those are recorded. with a Christian whom has choosen to yield his will he can use them more but again the key word is we yield not robotics.


read up on what is taught by Calvinists on limited free will. I have listened to one teach on that. that is how I know.

 

[tinykitten]

Actually I am not a Calvinist. God created man with a will. It was never a will free from God as our conscience proves. However, as it becomes enslaved by sin it is possible, by spinning of the terms, that one can count himself free from God while never realizing he is a slave to sin. For God's Word is our very sentience. To deny Him is to deny ourselves.

Where do you find God? In scripture or in your heart?

 

[childeye]

="jasonc, post: 1032632, member: 6785"] you love redefining words to your liking.

I do my best to understand what is said to me and to be understood. You would have to accept that by faith.

I clearly didn't do that. I said man has a will and that god allows it. that we have limits is implied ie we don't have the power on our to be sinless. I figured since we both claim Christ we should know that.

I am not debating that men have wills. In fact they do. What animal doesn't? But is that will free in the moral sense, when it's image of God is a corrupt image? I say no. To me Islam has a corrupt image of God. A righteousness measured by the letter of the law rather than the Spirit of mercy and understanding which accounts for weakness of the flesh without any hypocrisy. My point is that they wish to enforce sharia, and that they truly believe that they serve God in doing so. Therefore they are willing to die in Jihad for such a cause. This is not a freewill, but a will governed by a false image of God at the foundation of their reasoning. To say they could choose otherwise is naïve.

im clearly been told im mistaken. I also didn't bring up works. nor how Jesus saves. I said that God allows some will, its implied by previous post. on the idea of the serveant. he choose to be one.

Fine, but the qualifier for the man choosing to be a servant is predicated on his love for the Master. The scripture doesn't imply that he chose to love the Master and therefore chose to remain a servant. If the Love is heartfelt, then the decision is already made for all intensive purposes.

does god tell you how many steps to take? when to eat, type? move bowels? no he doesn't. we have biological proceses that tell us to do that

Did God design our bodies? Then when we are hungry it is not by our freewill that we have decide we need food. It is because He made us that way.

and a mind that decides what to post.

Did God make our minds able to reason? Yes He did. But did God supplant the pure image of God with a false image of God to man, upon which we reason right and wrong? No. According to scripture, Satan did.

he doesn't make us do anything we don't want to do.

He makes us have the right wants, so that we want to do His will. We are His handiwork. He is the potter and we the clay.

he can at times albeit rare touch the sinner to say something that is of his will and those are recorded. with a Christian whom has choosen to yield his will he can use them more but again the key word is we yield not robotics.

Enough of the robotics already. Even computers make decisions based on their programming. A corrupt or incomplete program will result in poor decisions. I know we have a mind that decides. But the information we will base our decisions on, is more relevant than the fact that we decide. Without the knowledge of God, no man yields to the right things. They by default will yield to the flesh.

read up on what is taught by Calvinists on limited free will. I have listened to one teach on that. that is how I know.

All you know is what one man teaches about Calvinism and limited freewill. I listen to the teachings of the Holy Spirit and He teaches that the Word of God is the Light of my soul and without God's Word, I am in darkness.. And I am not referring to the bible. I'm referring to the Spirit of Christ living in me by grace.