What Do You Mean By "One" God?

[jgredline]

If these folks who want to know the trinity really want to study theology, here it is.

The impression I get, is that you think those that would question the Trinity have never read a book on theology?

Undertow
Where did you study theology?
Under whom did you study?
What ciriculam did you use?

 

[undertow]

If these folks who want to know the trinity really want to study theology, here it is.

The impression I get, is that you think those that would question the Trinity have never read a book on theology?

Undertow
Where did you study theology?

I have never taken any kind of course in theology, and I didn't claim to. If you have, perhaps it will help you to answer Brad's specific question?

 

[undertow]

By the way jgredline, how could Matthew be describing an early cleansing of the temple?

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=23910

 

[jgredline]

If these folks who want to know the trinity really want to study theology, here it is.

The impression I get, is that you think those that would question the Trinity have never read a book on theology?

Undertow
Where did you study theology?

I have never taken any kind of course in theology, and I didn't claim to. If you have, perhaps it will help you to answer Brad's specific question?

I have. Perhaps not to your or brads liking, but I have and even gave you guys material to study.
I am not here to try and convince you of anything. Thats the job of the Holy Spirit. I am also not an evangelist so I am not trying to convert you over to Chritianity. As for the temple cleansing, there are definatly two cleansings with some expositors claiming there was three. All 4 Gospel writers wrote thier own views of what happened. In alot of ways Johns Gospel fills in many of the blanks.

 

[undertow]

As for the temple cleansing, there are definatly two cleansings with some expositors claiming there was three. All 4 Gospel writers wrote thier own views of what happened. In alot of ways Johns Gospel fills in many of the blanks.

What I asked you about, is how could Matthew be describing an early cleansing of the temple? Perhaps you have a reason for that, but I simply can't see where you get that idea from.

 

[undertow]

I have. Perhaps not to your or brads liking, but I have and even gave you guys material to study.

That's nice I guess, but it would have been even better if you tried to actually answer the specific question that was being asked.

 

[mutzrein]

If these folks who want to know the trinity really want to study theology, here it is.

The impression I get, is that you think those that would question the Trinity have never read a book on theology?

So when did the study of theology become necessary for salvation? In fact Jesus said to the scholars of His day, "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

And with the number of people who want to deny me salvation because I cannot agree with this trinity, it REALLY makes me wonder.

 

[Solo]

Knowing Jesus as God is one of the evidences of salvation.

 

[mutzrein]

Knowing Jesus as God is one of the evidences of salvation.

I’ve had a good look in my book and I can’t find it there Solo. So help me out with scripture & verse please.

I am born again, not by acceptance of any creed, or theology or doctrine or indeed any will of the flesh, or will of man - but I am born of God.

I contend that any gospel that says that salvation hinges on any academic acceptance of a statement such as this is not a gospel of faith and therefore can never lead to righteousness that God requires.

So make no mistake about it Solo and any others that take this stand. I know my redeemer and I stand in his righteousness alone. I make no boast of being born again by anything else save the mercy & grace of God my Father. And in Christ alone is my righteousness.

 

[Solo]

Knowing Jesus as God is one of the evidences of salvation.

I’ve had a good look in my book and I can’t find it there Solo. So help me out with scripture & verse please.

I am born again, not by acceptance of any creed, or theology or doctrine or indeed any will of the flesh, or will of man - but I am born of God.

I contend that any gospel that says that salvation hinges on any academic acceptance of a statement such as this is not a gospel of faith and therefore can never lead to righteousness that God requires.

So make no mistake about it Solo and any others that take this stand. I know my redeemer and I stand in his righteousness alone. I make no boast of being born again by anything else save the mercy & grace of God my Father. And in Christ alone is my righteousness.

And you don't believe Jesus Christ is God because of .....?

Is he created?

Who is he?

 

[mutzrein]

Knowing Jesus as God is one of the evidences of salvation.

I’ve had a good look in my book and I can’t find it there Solo. So help me out with scripture & verse please.

I am born again, not by acceptance of any creed, or theology or doctrine or indeed any will of the flesh, or will of man - but I am born of God.

I contend that any gospel that says that salvation hinges on any academic acceptance of a statement such as this is not a gospel of faith and therefore can never lead to righteousness that God requires.

So make no mistake about it Solo and any others that take this stand. I know my redeemer and I stand in his righteousness alone. I make no boast of being born again by anything else save the mercy & grace of God my Father. And in Christ alone is my righteousness.

And you don't believe Jesus Christ is God because of .....?

. . . what scripture says and revelation of God which expounds on the meaning of it.

Is he created?
[quote:25372]Is the word that comes out of your mouth created?

Who is he?

He is the Word of God. The only begotten son of God. He is my redeemer, He is the Bread of Life which came from God. He is the Way the Truth and the Life. He is the Vine. He is the spotless lamb of God. He is the one under whom God has placed all things EXCEPT himself.

He is my righteousness - and much much more - but suffice to say I cannot say these things without knowing Him and the One who sent Him.

[/quote:25372]

Have I given you enough Solo? Can you now say, "what more do we need? By his own admission he says that Jesus is not God. Let us do away with him."

 

[Solo]

And you don't believe Jesus Christ is God because of .....?

. . . what scripture says and revelation of God which expounds on the meaning of it.

Scripture says that Jesus Christ is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega. This is a claim of Jehovah God Almighty also. Are there two First and Lasts, two Alpha and Omegas, or is JEHOVAH telling a lie in Isaiah when he said that he was the First and the Last and beside him there is no God?


Thus saith the LORD <JEHOVAH> the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD <JEHOVAH> of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God <ELOHIM>. Isaiah 44:6

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:17-18

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:12-16

Is he created?

Is the word that comes out of your mouth created?

No. Jesus wasn't created either. He created all things and without him nothing was created.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

Who is he?

He is the Word of God. The only begotten son of God. He is my redeemer, He is the Bread of Life which came from God. He is the Way the Truth and the Life. He is the Vine. He is the spotless lamb of God. He is the one under whom God has placed all things EXCEPT himself.

He is my righteousness - and much much more - but suffice to say I cannot say these things without knowing Him and the One who sent Him.

You are correct, Jesus is the Word of God who John explains is God.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-5

You are also correct that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. God became fully man as He became the First born Son of God. Jesus is fully man, and fully God. He did not think of himself robbing God as he proclaimed equality with God.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

You are also correct that Jesus is your redeemer. Job understood that the redeemer was God and that he would stand on the earth at the latter day.

23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! 24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever! 25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. 28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me? 29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment. Job 19:23-29

Correct again, Jesus is the Bread of Life. Notice that Jesus is repeating what is written in Isaiah 43:13 when he says that JEHOVAH God will teach all who come to know Jesus.

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. John 6:43-47

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The night that Jesus ate supper in the upper room with his disciples he taught them that he was the way, the truth, and the life; and that if they have known Jesus they also knew the Father, and that henceforth they would know the Father for they have seen Him.

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:6-7

Read John 14 where Thomas doesn't know the Father and Jesus questions him about why he doesn't know the Father after seeing Jesus. Jesus explains in the above posted verse "henceforth ye know him, and have seen him". Notice after Jesus' resurrection and meeting with Thomas that Jesus tells a doubting Thomas to reach his fingers in the holes in his hands whereby Thomas declares, "My Lord and my God".

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:26-28

Jesus is the Vine and all those that are born of God, born again, are the branches. Jesus is the source for he is God, and we are sons of God through Him.

Jesus is the unblemished Lamb of God, and John explains in Revelation 22 that the Lamb sits on the throne of God, and the Lamb and God are the same one. Notice that God and the Lamb are referred to as him where it states "his servants shall serve him; and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads".

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

And Jesus will be given a name above all names. The scripture does not say that Jesus' name will be above every name EXCEPT JEHOVAH'S. The scripture says that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, things in earth, and things under earth. That is because there is no higher name in heaven than that of JEHOVAH.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Romans 14:11-12

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. Isaiah 45:21-24

Notice that "Surely, shall one say, in the LORD <JEHOVAH> have I righteousness and strength".

Have I given you enough Solo? Can you now say, "what more do we need? By his own admission he says that Jesus is not God. Let us do away with him."

What I say is, "How much more does God have to reveal to you in order for you to know him. Will he continue to let himself be deceived."

 

[Solo]

No comments or responses?? :o

 

[mutzrein]

No comments or responses?? :o

Yes it is coming Solo. Patience please. One of the fruit of the Spirit :wink:

I'm a busy man but will get there - hopefully over the weekend.

 

[Solo]

No comments or responses?? :o

Yes it is coming Solo. Patience please. One of the fruit of the Spirit :wink:

I'm a busy man but will get there - hopefully over the weekend.

Not impatient, just surprised! :o

 

[mutzrein]

No comments or responses?? :o

Yes it is coming Solo. Patience please. One of the fruit of the Spirit :wink:

I'm a busy man but will get there - hopefully over the weekend.

Not impatient, just surprised! :o

Life has been busy in my household & consequently work also. The wife has been o'seas while I have been looking after the kids & working at the same time. She has just arrived back with our daughter whose birthday is Aug 17. That in itself created a few extra things to do. Not only that but it seems the Mrs has a new plan for my life which means I may have to start having catnaps :-? And I thought I was busy while she was away! Anyway, suffice to say - I have not forgotten you or my need to respond to your post. I'm just trying to find a spare moment at home when I can come up for air!!

 

[jgredline]

The case for a non created Jesus



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John 1:1-5 NKJV

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.



John begins his Gospel by speaking about the Word but he does not explain at first who or what the Word is. A word is a unit of speech by which we express ourselves to others. But John is not writing about speech but rather about a Person. That Person is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. God has fully expressed Himself to mankind in the Person of the Lord Jesus. By coming into the world, Christ has perfectly revealed to us what God is like. By dying for us on the cross, He has told us how much God loves us. Thus Christ is Gods living Word to man, the expression of Gods thoughts.

1:1 In the beginning was the Word. He did not have a beginning Himself, but existed from all eternity. As far as the human mind can go back, the Lord Jesus was there. He never was created. He had no beginning. (A genealogy would be out of place in this Gospel of the Son of God.) The Word was with God. He had a separate and distinct personality. He was not just an idea, a thought, or some vague kind of example, but a real Person who lived with God. The Word was God. He not only dwelt with God, but He Himself was God.

The Bible teaches that there is one God and that there are three Persons in the Godheadthe Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three of these Persons are God. In this verse, two of the Persons of the Godhead are mentionedGod the Father and God the Son. It is the first of many clear statements in this Gospel that JesusChrist isGod. It is not enough to say that He is a god,that He is godlike, or that He is divine. The Bible teaches that He is God.

1:2 Verse 2 would appear to be a mere repetition of what has been said, but actually it is not. This verse teaches that Christs personality and deity were without beginning. He did not become a person for the first time as the Babe of Bethlehem. Nor did He somehow become a god after His resurrection, as some teach today. He is God from all eternity.

1:3 All things were made through Him. He Himself was not a created being; rather He was the Creator of all things. This includes mankind, the animals, the heavenly planets, the angels all things visible and invisible. Without Him nothing was made that was made. There can be no possible exception. If a thing was made, He made it. As Creator, He is, of course, superior to anything He has created. All three Persons of the Godhead were involved in the work of creation: God created the heavens and the earth(Gen. 1:1). The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters(Gen. 1:2). All things were created through Him (Christ) and for Him(Col. 1:16b).

1:4 In Him was life. This does not simply mean that He possessed life, but that He was and is the source of life. The word here includes both physical and spiritual life. When we were born, we received physical life. When we are born again, we receive spiritual life. Both come from Him.

The life was the light of men. The same One who supplied us with life is also the light of men. He provides the guidance and direction necessary for man. It is one thing to exist, but quite another to know how to live, to know the true purpose of life, and to know the way to heaven. The same One who gave us life is the One who provides us with light for the pathway we travel.

There are seven wonderful titles of our Lord Jesus Christ in this opening chapter of the Gospel. He is called (1) the Word (vv. 1, 14); (2) the Light (vv. 5, 7); (3) the Lamb of God (vv. 29, 36); (4) the Son of God (vv. 34, 49); (5) the Christ (Messiah) (v. 41); (6) the King of Israel (v. 49); and (7) the Son of Man (v. 51). The first four titles, each of which is mentioned at least twice, seem to be universal in application. The last three titles, each of which is mentioned only once, had their first application to Israel, Gods ancient people.

1:5 The light shines in the darkness. The entrance of sin brought darkness to the minds of men. It plunged the world into darkness in the sense that men in general neither knew God nor wanted to know Him. Into this darkness the Lord Jesus camea light shining in a dark place.

The darkness did not comprehend it. This may mean that the darkness did not understand the Lord Jesus when He came into the world. Men did not realize who He really was, or why He had come. Another meaning, however, is given in the NKJV New King James Version margin: the darkness did not overcome it. Then the thought would be that mans rejection and enmity did not prevent the true light from shining.



J Vernon McGee says this;

The Gospel of John introduces the Lord Jesus Christ with three tremendous statements:

In the beginning was the Word,

And the Word was with God,

And the Word was God.

The Word is one of the highest and most profound titles of the Lord Jesus Christ. To determine the exact meaning is not easy. Obviously the Lord Jesus Christ is not the logos of Greek philosophy; rather He is the memra of the Hebrew Scriptures. Notice how important the Word is in the Old Testament. For instance, the name for Jehovah was never pronounced. It was such a holy word that they never used it at all. But this is the One who is the Word and, gathering up everything that was said of Him in the Old Testament, He is now presented as the One In the beginning. This beginning antedates the very first words in the Bible, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. That beginning can be dated, although I do not believe that anyone can date it accuratelyit is nonsense to say that it is 4004 b.c., as Usshers dating has it. It probably goes back billions and billions of years. You see, you and I are dealing with the God of eternity. When you go back to creation He is already there, and that is exactly the way this is used in the beginning was the Word. Notice it is not is the Word; it was not in the beginning that the Word started out or was begotten. Was (as Dr. Lenske points out) is known as a durative imperfect, meaning continued action. It means that the Word was in the beginning. What beginning? Just as far back as you want to go. The Bible says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Gen. 1:1). Does that begin God? No, just keep on going back billions and trillions and squillions of years. I can think back to billions of years back of creationmaybe you can go beyond thatbut lets put down a point there, billions of years back of creation. He already was; He comes out of eternity to meet us. He did not begin. In the beginning was the Word He was already there when the beginning was. Well, somebody says, there has to be a beginning somewhere. All right, wherever you begin, He is there to meet you, He is already past tense. In the beginning was the Word five words in the original language, and there is not a man on topside of this earth who can put a date on it or understand it or fathom it. This first tremendous statement starts us off in space, you see.

The second statement is this, and the Word was with God. This makes it abundantly clear that He is separate and distinct from God the Father. You cannot identify Him as God the Father because He is with God. But, someone says, if He is with God, He is not God. The third statement sets us straight, and the Word was God. This is a clear, emphatic declaration that the Lord Jesus Christ is God. In fact, the Greek is more specific than this, because in the Greek language the important word is placed at the beginning of the sentence and it reads, God was the Word. That is emphatic; you cannot get it more emphatic than that. Do you want to get rid of the deity of Christ? My friend, you cannot get rid of it. The first three statements in Johns gospel tie the thing down. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Scofield says this;

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Word Gr. "Logos" (arm. "Memra," used in the Targums, or Heb. paraphrases, for God). The Greek term means, (1) a thought or concept; (2) the expression or utterance of that thought. As a designation of Christ, therefore, Logos is peculiarly felicitous because, (1) in Him are embodied all the treasures of the divine wisdom, the collective "thought" of God 1 Corinthians 1:24; Ephesians 3:11; Colossians 2:2,3 and, (2) He is from eternity, but especially in His incarnation, the utterance or expression of the Person, and "thought" of Deity John 1:3-5,9,14-18; 14:9-11; Colossians 2:9. In the Being, Person, and work of Christ, Deity is told out. 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. comprehended Or, apprehended; lit. "laid not hold of it."

Finally if your still not convinced



Norman Geisler says this;

JOHN 1:1 Jesus God or just a god?

MISINTERPRETATION: The Jehovahs WitnessesNew World Translation renders this verse, The Word [Christ] was a god(insert added). The Watchtower magazine states that because there is no definite article the(ho) it means Christ is only a god, not the God(The Watchtower, 7 December 1995, 4). They in fact believe that Jesus is only a created being, Michael the Archangel (The Watchtower, 15 May 1969, 307). The Greek of John 1:1 is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god(Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1989, 212).

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: It is not proper to translate this verse The Word was a godso as to deny the deity of Christ. The full deity of Christ is supported by other references in John (e.g., 8:58; 10:30; 20:28) as well as the rest of the New Testament (e.g., Col. 1:1516; 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8). Further, it is not necessary to translate Greek nouns that have no definite article with an indefinite article (there is no indefinite article in Greek). In other words, theos (God) without the definite article ho (the) does not need to be translated as a Godas the Jehovahs Witnesses have done in reference to Christ. It is significant that theos without the definite article ho is used of Jehovah God in the New Testament. Because the lack of the definite article in Luke 20:38 in reference to Jehovah does not mean he is a lesser God, neither does the lack of the definite article in John 1:1 in reference to Jesus mean he is a lesser God. The fact is, the presence or absence of the definite article does not alter the fundamental meaning of theos. If John had intended an adjectival sense (the Word was godlike or divinea god) he had an adjective (theios) ready at hand that he could have used. Instead, John says the Word is God (theos).

Contrary to the claims of the Watchtower Society, some New Testament texts do use the definite article and speak of Christ as the God(ho theos). One example of this is John 20:28 where Thomas says to Jesus, My Lord and my God.The verse reads literally from the Greek: The Lord of me and the God [ho theos] of me(see also Matt. 1:23 and Heb. 1:8). So it does not matter whether John did or did not use the definite article in John 1:1the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God, not just a god.

Greek scholars have thoroughly refuted the Watchtower translation. Dr. Julius Mantey says of the Jehovahs Witnessestranslation of John 1:1, Ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the Jehovahs Witnesses(Mantey, 3:3, 5).

That Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) is clear from the fact that the New Testament consistently applies to Jesus passages and attributes which in the Old Testament apply only to Jehovah (compare Exod. 3:14 with John 8:58; Isa. 6:15 with John 12:41; Isa. 44:24 with Col. 1:16; Ezek. 43:2 with Rev. 1:15; Zech. 12:10 with Rev. 1:7).





JOHN 1:1 Does this verse teach that God is impersonal, as Mary Baker Eddy claimed?

MISINTERPRETATION: Christian Science leader Mary Baker Eddy concluded that the identification of the Word with God in this verse implies that God is an impersonal deity. Eddy said, This great truth of Gods impersonality and individuality . . . is the foundation of Christian Science(Eddy, 117).

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: Affirming that the Word [Logos] is Godin no way implies that God is impersonal. God(theos) is the same Greek word used of God throughout the New Testament. And God is always presented as a personal being who has a mind (John 10:15), will (John 4:34; 7:17), and feeling (John 4:23). He is a personal being unto whom believers may cry, Abba,an Aramaic term loosely meaning daddy(Mark 14:36; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

Second, two of the three characteristics of personality can be found in this very passage. God is manifested as the Word (Logos) which means a rational discourse or reason. And God chose by his will to create (John 1:3).

Finally, there is nothing impersonal about the Logos (the Word), for he became flesh (human) and lived among us (John 1:14). He engaged in personal relations with other persons (humans).





JOHN 1:1 Did Jesus preexist only in Gods foreknowledge, as some cults claim, or was he really eternal God?

MISINTERPRETATION: According to The Way International founder Paul Wierwille, Jesus was not God.

How was Jesus with God in the beginning? In the same way that the written Word was with Him, namely, in Gods foreknowledge. . . . In the Old Testament, Jesus Christ was in Gods foreknowledge and in the foreknowledge of Gods people as God revealed this prophetic knowledge to them. When Jesus Christ was born, he came into existence. Foreknowledge became a reality. [cited in Martin, 87]

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: All the evidence is contrary to Wierwilles conclusion. John asserts that the Word(Logos) was a person (John 1:14), not a mere idea in Gods mind, as knowledge would be. The text does not say, as Wierwille claims, that foreknowledgewas in Gods mind eternally and that foreknowledgebecame flesh and dwelt among us. It says that the Word [Christ] was God(John 1:1) from all eternityand that this same person (not Gods foreknowledge of him) became flesh and dwelt among us(1:14).

John speaks of Christ the Word [Logos]being with God(1:1) eternally. Knowledge would not be withGod. God would have wisdom, but it would not be with him. The word withimplies another along side in an intimate relationship. Christ was another person in the Trinity, not the same person as the Father.

Numerous other verses in the New Testament declare the full deity of Christ (for example, John 20:28; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8).



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The case for a non created Jesus; part 2

Well its seems to me that many cults grab these single vesres of out of contex and try to make a case for a created Jesus.

(col 1:15) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

OR ( Col 1:18 ) And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

The problem here is that John declared Christ to be eternal and equal with God. See John 1:1, 8:58 and 20:28

But Paul seems to say that Christ was only a creature, the fisrt Born (created) in the universe..

How do we answer this? This passage reminds me of Ginger. Ginger where are you? Anyway back to the Scripture. The above two references show how Cults take single verses out of contex and make a case for what they beleive.

Now lets take a look at the scripture in contex and see what it really says.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

The New King James Version. 1982 (Col 1:15-18). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The answer to this riddle is simple.

Paul clearly declares Christ to be God in this very letter by saying he ''created all things'' (verse 1:16 one of the vesses they leave out) and has ''the fullness of the Godhead'' (see verse col 2:9 where Paul also affirms the deity of CHrist) the referance to ''first born'' does not mean he is the referance to fisrt born in creation, but the first born over creation (vese 15), since '' he is before all things'' ( verse 17) '' First'' born in this contex does not mean the first one to be born, but the heir of all, the creator and owner of ''all things''

Bottom line is he could not have been a created thing.



A simple rule of thumb or hermenutics is to remember that first pauls epistles are letters and should be read as letters and that none of the original scriptures have verse numbers or chapters. They were not there.

Its important to grab the complete thought.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad
I can't beieve I will attempt to answer this question inspite of the fact I fully expect ridicule from, you but I do it not for you but for my GOD

GOD is one absolutely perfect devine Being in three persons.
His being is what God is, in releation to the universe he created.
The three are called persons because they relate to one another in personal ways.

When Christians talk about believing in one God in three persons (trinity), they do not mean :

1 God in Gods, or 3 persons in 1 person, or 3 persons in 3 Gods, or 1 person in 3 Gods,
RATHER THEY MEAN 1 GOD IN 3 PERSONS

Therefore
the Father is God-the First Person of the Trinity
the Son is God-the second Person of the Trinity
THE Holy spirit (Holy Ghost) is GOD- the third person of the trinity.

Brad, I hope this helps.
Jg

Wow, I was away for a little while and this thread got lively :D

Thank you for the responses but Undertow is correct, my basic question has not been addressed. I am not looking for a defense or even (at this point) an explanation of the Trinity. I want to know exactly what Trins mean by the "one" in "one God". Let me illustrate further...

Let's refer to the Deity as the "divine substance" (DS) to clarify the point. (this shouldn't be a problem as that actually is a term used, and, I believe, coined, by Trinitarians)

How many DS's are there? The Trinitarian would say one, and so would the Modalists, Arians and Unitarians. But the DS, being the substance that makes up deity, could also be said to be "one" even in a polytheistic setting. For instance, the gods of Mt. Olympus (though mythical, we are talking about concepts) would be made of one DS, just as the human race is made of one human substance, or non-divine substance. The existence of DS does not tell us whether there is one God or more than one God but just that there is deity in existence. What tells us whether there is one God or more than one God is how many divine PERSONS there are, because many Gods would be made of the same one DS. The gods of polytheism are different persons. The fact that there is more than one person who is God is what makes it polytheism. Thus the Trinitarian scenario is actually polytheistic, it simply denies that it is. The "sleight of hand" employed is to imagine that it is the DS that is actually "one" in number, allowing for any number of divine persons to share that DS. But, again, that is what polytheism is, multiple persons (gods) sharing one DS.

What Trinitarianism does is simply expand the word "God" to include all that would be labelled "Gods" (plural) in a polytheistic venue, and then claim there is only "one God" because that one God is actually the DS, which covers any and all divine persons. But this is NOT monotheistic. True monotheism would hold to a God who is one PERSON.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

And you don't believe Jesus Christ is God because of .....?

Is he created?

Who is he?

If your interpretation of these passages is correct, then he is God, ANOTHER God. A God other than the Father. If not, why not? The Father is God, Jesus is God, the Father is not Jesus, Jesus is not the Father. THAT'S 2 GODS.

Those you accuse of heresy are only trying to keep the first commandment.

 

[Solo]

And you don't believe Jesus Christ is God because of .....?

Is he created?

Who is he?

If your interpretation of these passages is correct, then he is God, ANOTHER God. A God other than the Father. If not, why not? The Father is God, Jesus is God, the Father is not Jesus, Jesus is not the Father. THAT'S 2 GODS.

Those you accuse of heresy are only trying to keep the first commandment.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Titus 3:10

Bye