What Do You Mean By "One" God?

[BradtheImpaler]

And you don't believe Jesus Christ is God because of .....?

Is he created?

Who is he?

If your interpretation of these passages is correct, then he is God, ANOTHER God. A God other than the Father. If not, why not? The Father is God, Jesus is God, the Father is not Jesus, Jesus is not the Father. THAT'S 2 GODS.

Those you accuse of heresy are only trying to keep the first commandment.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Titus 3:10

Bye

Thanks for "leaving town", thereby making it obvious you believe in more than one God but don't know how to deny it :

It doesn't matter to me how many Gods you believe in or whether you believe at all, I just like people to see the truth of what they believe if they haven't before. Now that you know what you believe, I hope you are at peace with it :smt006

 

[mutzrein]

Goodness - should I post or what? Maybe I should increase the font size for extra effect :wink:

 

[jgredline]

Brad
I can't beieve I will attempt to answer this question inspite of the fact I fully expect ridicule from, you but I do it not for you but for my GOD

GOD is one absolutely perfect devine Being in three persons.
His being is what God is, in releation to the universe he created.
The three are called persons because they relate to one another in personal ways.

When Christians talk about believing in one God in three persons (trinity), they do not mean :

1 God in Gods, or 3 persons in 1 person, or 3 persons in 3 Gods, or 1 person in 3 Gods,
RATHER THEY MEAN 1 GOD IN 3 PERSONS

Therefore
the Father is God-the First Person of the Trinity
the Son is God-the second Person of the Trinity
THE Holy spirit (Holy Ghost) is GOD- the third person of the trinity.

Brad, I hope this helps.
Jg

Wow, I was away for a little while and this thread got lively :D

Thank you for the responses but Undertow is correct, my basic question has not been addressed. I am not looking for a defense or even (at this point) an explanation of the Trinity. I want to know exactly what Trins mean by the "one" in "one God". Let me illustrate further...

Let's refer to the Deity as the "divine substance" (DS) to clarify the point. (this shouldn't be a problem as that actually is a term used, and, I believe, coined, by Trinitarians)

How many DS's are there? The Trinitarian would say one, and so would the Modalists, Arians and Unitarians. But the DS, being the substance that makes up deity, could also be said to be "one" even in a polytheistic setting. For instance, the gods of Mt. Olympus (though mythical, we are talking about concepts) would be made of one DS, just as the human race is made of one human substance, or non-divine substance. The existence of DS does not tell us whether there is one God or more than one God but just that there is deity in existence. What tells us whether there is one God or more than one God is how many divine PERSONS there are, because many Gods would be made of the same one DS. The gods of polytheism are different persons. The fact that there is more than one person who is God is what makes it polytheism. Thus the Trinitarian scenario is actually polytheistic, it simply denies that it is. The "sleight of hand" employed is to imagine that it is the DS that is actually "one" in number, allowing for any number of divine persons to share that DS. But, again, that is what polytheism is, multiple persons (gods) sharing one DS.

What Trinitarianism does is simply expand the word "God" to include all that would be labelled "Gods" (plural) in a polytheistic venue, and then claim there is only "one God" because that one God is actually the DS, which covers any and all divine persons. But this is NOT monotheistic. True monotheism would hold to a God who is one PERSON.

Brad
Really after all the time being spent and gving you many explanations unless your born again you will never understand. You are wasting your time trying to understand something the simple human mind can't understand. Its not going to happen.

 

[mutzrein]

Sorry that it has taken me longer than intended to get to this.

I have explained the principle of Jesus relationship to his God and Father a number of times on this board, but I will endeavour to do so again. Personally I believe that many have been blinded to it because they have started with a premise which can only be fulfilled by one interpretation. Of course I don’t blame them for this interpretation for I too was coerced into accepting the trinity as a young Christian. And it wasn’t until the Lord brought me to my knees to recognise that there was nothing, absolutely nothing that I could do or be without him, that He started to reveal Himself in manner which I find words inadequate to describe.

Now the knowledge I have and understanding that has come as a result, is not from man but from God. And this is not something I say lightly. Nor do I, or can I, boast because I know it is God who has revealed it. And whether those whose premise is different to mine can see it or not is not the issue for me. If they are to see it, then I can only say that God (as He has with me) has revealed it. But there are those who will want to sneer or ridicule such a notion. Perhaps they will even want to call me a false prophet or teacher and want to do away with me. That is not my business either. I believe at any one time, God allows as much as He has determined should happen at that time, and again at the right time his will and purpose for all, will be revealed.

Solo, you seem to have a problem even with one of the most fundamental elements of things created. My question to you was, “Is the word that comes out of your mouth created?†Your answer was ‘no’. Now I understand why you HAD to say that. But I submit to you that when I speak, I create words. So my word is created. Now of course you know this but you have decided not to accept it because the logical conclusion is that when God speaks he creates His word and by literal translation, you think I am saying that Jesus is created.

But I’m not saying that at some time God created Jesus once and for all. I am saying that whenever God speaks, he creates his Word. His word has always been WITH him. By God’s word and through God’s word all things have been created.

Now we, in our human ‘wisdom’ cannot conceive the majesty of God, nor can we with our intellect comprehend the things of the spirit of God. Of course we always tend to reduce them to parallels or analogies which are tangible and humanly grasped, but God in reality cannot be defined or analysed in such a way. So I am not about to expound on the nature of God because these things are too wondrous for us to speak of or even behold in human terms. Some things are beyond knowing but what I do know is that God has given me keys of understanding to certain things. Of course I can only understand the things He has shown me since I have neither studied these things nor analysed them intellectually. It is revelation of the spirit of God.

Jesus is the Word of God. He is the conduit through which God has spoken and has brought everything into being.

And since it is God’s word that we are hearing we can say that the word itself is the conduit through which God speaks. And just as my word reflects who I am, so God’s word reflects God. As my word comes from my heart and therefore shows who I am so I can say that my word is me. And as the Word of God emanates from the heart of the Father so it is absolutely correct to say that the Word is God. Because it is the word (which is the reflection of the Father) that shows us God. But this is different to saying that Jesus is God.

But just as the word that proceeds out of my mouth reflects me, it (the word) is not actually me because I am the one who is causing it to be spoken. The word is created in obedience to my will. So there are two entities. Me AND my word. So it is again with God. There are two entities. One is God and the other is his Word. And so we can also say that the Word is WITH God.

So as John says, the Word IS God (in the sense that is represents or reflects Him) and the word is WITH God (in the sense that God is one entity and His Word is another.)

So Jesus, being the Word of God, can rightly proclaim, “before Abraham was I AM†And likewise in other passages that Trinitarians use to attempt to differentiate between an entity they call God the Father and another they call God the son there is no inconsistency either.

The real issue is that those who cling to this doctrine cannot see or perceive scripture in any other way, than that in which they have been taught. Furthermore, this leads to a major problem and that is that many who accept the doctrine, believe it because they are told that its acceptance is necessary for salvation. And therefore as a consequence many are taught that not to accept it, is tantamount to losing ones salvation.

But my contention is (and this is at the root of what God has shown me) our salvation is based on righteousness imputed by God, through faith in Christ. And this faith is a gift. So if God gives man this faith, and this faith does not ALLOW him to see the Trinitarian doctrine, do we blame God who is the giver or man who is the recipient? Of course we can do neither because in either case salvation would not be by faith.

Now I am not denying that those who accept OR reject the trinity are necessarily lost or ‘saved’. I am merely saying that a gospel that requires adherence to a doctrine in order for a person to be saved, is not a gospel based on faith and therefore it can only lead to self righteousness – which in God’s sight is filthy rags.

But I digress, I must say that since the Lord has shown me these things I marvel at its simplicity. In fact I have discovered that when scripture as a whole is applied to this premise there is no inconsistency, neither in the scriptures that Trinitarians use to try to explain their doctrine, nor to the non-trinitarians who use scripture to defend an alternate view. So, I find that there is absolutely no need to pervert scripture by changing, adding to it or taking away from it in order to give it the slant required, as has been done by some. So I am absolutely happy to defend my position should anyone wish to ‘attack’ it.

For now though I think I have said enough. I noticed Solo has rolled out his usual list of verses but I have no intention of writing an essay to respond to all of them. I am able to, of course, but I just don’t have sufficient time to answer all of them straight up – especially when most have been dealt with in this and other threads.
However, if a person wishes to ask me about a verse or two at a time, feel free and I will respond as I am able.

One last request I make is this. I would say that most reading this, see themselves as Christians. That being the case, may I ask that those who respond, consider the words of Jesus when he said, “by their fruit you shall know them.â€Â

While I am happy to debate scripture and the gospel of Jesus Christ, how about we let our fruit speak for us rather than accuse one another of being aligned to the antichrist or of being a false prophet or propagating deceit. If you have something against me, come to me in private and tell me what it is. Let me answer you directly in a manner which befits a man of God. If after this has happened and you are in a position to do so (keeping in mind that each of us are answerable to God for our actions) take it to the whole assembly and let us see what should be done in the circumstances.

While it grieves me to see certain accusations made by those who believe they have the right to do so, I want to say that I don’t personally take offence at any who choose to accuse me falsely. Since it is by God’s grace alone that I am known of God and by God’s grace that I know God, I yield all into the hands of the Almighty. I recognise I am not the judge of men’s hearts nor am I mediator between God and man. Only Christ and Christ alone is the one to whom God has give this authority. And I believe it would be good for all who claim to be sons and daughters of God to be of this mind.

 

[jgredline]

mutz
Good post.I enjoyed reading it.
jg

 

[Solo]

Goodness - should I post or what? Maybe I should increase the font size for extra effect :wink:

Perhaps you should have a severe accident that leaves you blind in one eye, with reading glasses for your one good eye, so that you can proof read your posts with difficulty.

When I want extra effect on something, I come straight out with it. Hopefully that was clear enough for you mutzrein. I have noticed that you have a blatant disregard for scriptural truths; perhaps your understanding is blocked by some spiritual force. Let me know and I will pray for you.

 

[mutzrein]

Goodness - should I post or what? Maybe I should increase the font size for extra effect :wink:

Perhaps you should have a severe accident that leaves you blind in one eye, with reading glasses for your one good eye, so that you can proof read your posts with difficulty.

When I want extra effect on something, I come straight out with it. Hopefully that was clear enough for you mutzrein. I have noticed that you have a blatant disregard for scriptural truths; perhaps your understanding is blocked by some spiritual force. Let me know and I will pray for you.

Thankyou for letting me know that Solo and I am sorry to hear about your accident. May I enquire as to when and how it happened - but of course I will understand if you choose not to say.

I will leave my response regarding the things of the Spirit for now.

 

[SpiritualSon]

Well, I was going to promise this thread would not end up argumentative but I guess I can't make that guarantee for myself or others so let me just say my main reason for this post is to find out what Trinitarians mean when they say they believe in only "one God". Do you believe the Father/Son/Spirit are one being, or are you saying that the Father/Son/Spirit are the sum total of deity that exists so there is only one God in THAT respect?

Is that question clear? I'm not sure. It has occured to me, in debating Trinitarians, that it may be that they are not thinking of God as one being, but that, since they believe the Father/Son/Spirit are the only true deity that exists, that that is what they mean when they say there is only ONE God. That they are using the word "God" as it were, "divine substance", and that there is only one divine substance that exists, so that is one God, even though that God is 3 persons?

Brad,
God is one in Person and in Essence.

http://www.heavenlydoctrines.org/

Harry :fadein:

 

[Solo]

Goodness - should I post or what? Maybe I should increase the font size for extra effect :wink:

Perhaps you should have a severe accident that leaves you blind in one eye, with reading glasses for your one good eye, so that you can proof read your posts with difficulty.

When I want extra effect on something, I come straight out with it. Hopefully that was clear enough for you mutzrein. I have noticed that you have a blatant disregard for scriptural truths; perhaps your understanding is blocked by some spiritual force. Let me know and I will pray for you.

Thankyou for letting me know that Solo and I am sorry to hear about your accident. May I enquire as to when and how it happened - but of course I will understand if you choose not to say.

I will leave my response regarding the things of the Spirit for now.

I was in a motorcycle accident which appears that an oncoming car came into my lane of traffic in a no passing zone on a bridge, and I had no where to go but into the guardrail. I laid the bike over just prior hitting the guardrail, was catapulted into the air, and after flying 98 feet I hit the guardrail on the bridge with my face. I had no helmet on, and the injuries that I sustained were to my face, dislocated thumb, and broken index finger of same hand. My skull was fractured into my brain, my eyesockets were broken, my skull was broken behind my eyeballs, my sinuses were crushed, my cheek bones were broken, my maxillary facial bones were broken, my mandible jaw bone was broken and shoved back into my throat, nine of my front lower teeth were destroyed. I had the worst injuries that the staff had seen at the trauma center in Denver, Colorado. I was not expected to live, but did after a fourteen hour operation. My wife was told that I would probably be blind in both eyes and a vegetable the rest of my life. I was in critical care for two weeks, intensive care for one week, and rehabilitation for one week before I came to my senses and mentally "woke up" from a time that I do not remember. The last thing that I remember is turning onto the highway five miles prior to the accident after talking to my wife on the phone while getting gas. The next thing that I remember is seeing my wife sitting next to me in Baylor Rehabilitation hospital in Dallas, whereupon I had full memory with the exception of approximately 30 days. I am blind in one eye, and brain damaged in my frontal lobe which controls motivation, problem solving, multi-tasking, crisis management, anger, frustration, stress, etc. etc. I have above average cognitive skills, and all that I had learned prior to the accident is still clear as day, and available for my use. I can focus on tasks that are in front of me, one task at a time. Other than being blind in one eye, and slightly damaged in the ole head, I am fine.

 

[Georges]

I'm sorry to hear that....Solo, I won't be debating you anymore....I'm very glad that you survived that trauma....that is an incredible picture..

Good luck to you....

 

[lovely]

Solo,

Every time I see these pictures I get chills. I am so glad that the Lord spared you for the sake of your wife, and children, and ultimatel for His glory. I showed them to my sons the first time you put them up, and told them how the Lord spared you. The only reaction I received is, "Is that a Real skull?!" Sorry, they were only 6 and 8 at that time. Anyway, what a blessing, and a testimony for God.

The Lord bless you, Michael.

 

[Darrell dunn]

mutzrein

I agree to the point, If when you say the Father and Son are two deferent

entities, if you mean two deferent persons they are not.

For me and my words are the same person, and I will answer for every word.

Jesus is the total sum of every word that God spoke during or before the 7,000 years of man.

I know this may be hard to understand.

But if you will draw a large circle, then inside the circle draw a line across it not touching the circle. God is the circle, and time is the line from Adam to the end of 1,000 years of Christ rule here on earth.

Then you can see how God is the beginning and the end at the same time.

And all scripture is written in the past tense from God's view, Altho it may still be in our future. That is why there is no errors.

When God took John to write the book of Revelations, John came to a point of time still in our future and wrote what he saw.

This is how God showed me what he looks like.

 

[jgredline]

[quote Darrell wrote] And all scripture is written in the past tense from God's view, Altho it may still be in our future. That is why there is no errors.

[/quote]

This is pretty cool statement. I never thought about it this way. Thanks
jg

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein

I agree to the point, If when you say the Father and Son are two deferent

entities, if you mean two deferent persons they are not.

For me and my words are the same person, and I will answer for every word.

Jesus is the total sum of every word that God spoke during or before the 7,000 years of man.

I know this may be hard to understand.

But if you will draw a large circle, then inside the circle draw a line across it not touching the circle. God is the circle, and time is the line from Adam to the end of 1,000 years of Christ rule here on earth.

Then you can see how God is the beginning and the end at the same time.

And all scripture is written in the past tense from God's view, Altho it may still be in our future. That is why there is no errors.

When God took John to write the book of Revelations, John came to a point of time still in our future and wrote what he saw.

This is how God showed me what he looks like.

Mmmmm - OK Darrell I don't see it the same way you do, but that's OK & I appreciate your comments.

 

[Solo]

I'm sorry to hear that....Solo, I won't be debating you anymore....I'm very glad that you survived that trauma....that is an incredible picture..

Good luck to you....

Thanks for the concern, and your thoughts concerning my survival. I survived only because of the thousands of people praying for me in many, many churches in over 18 states.

My jaw and teeth are being reconstructed at Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. They are doing a stupendous job. I gave them a picture of Brad Pitt for the reconstructive surgery, but I look just like I used to minus the crows feet on the sides of my eyes. Oh well, two Brad Pitts would have been too many!

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Every time I see these pictures I get chills. I am so glad that the Lord spared you for the sake of your wife, and children, and ultimatel for His glory. I showed them to my sons the first time you put them up, and told them how the Lord spared you. The only reaction I received is, "Is that a Real skull?!" Sorry, they were only 6 and 8 at that time. Anyway, what a blessing, and a testimony for God.

The Lord bless you, Michael.

Thank you, Lovely. In case it hasn't been apparent, I am hard-headed. :D The head nurse at the trauma center told family to get my wife to Denver as soon as possible because she did not expect me to come out of the operating room. I had been put on many, many prayer lists almost immediately, and I was told that I couldn't have had the accident with my injuries in any better place, for the hospital and doctors that operated on me were the best in the area. It took the neurosurgeon 3 1/2 hours to pick out the skull fragments from my brain, and the maxillofacial surgeon to piece the skull back together like a jigsaw puzzle. I was reading the medical records and the EMT reports of the medical treatment and accident recovery, and it was noted that I was conscious when the EMTs arrived, and I was trying to get out of the control of some men who were holding my arms down. I was telling them that I couldn't breathe.

 

[Vic C.]

My jaw and teeth are being reconstructed at Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. They are doing a stupendous job. I gave them a picture of Brad Pitt for the reconstructive surgery, but I look just like I used to minus the crows feet on the sides of my eyes. Oh well, two Brad Pitts would have been too many!

LOL! One is too many. :o

 

[Oscar3]

Wow
I go on vacation come back and lots of action going on.
Solo.. What an amazing story and picture. Praise the Lord your well.
I for one have been blessed by your post. Trully your defense of what is true is appreciated.
God bless you and keep swinging for the fence.
Oscar