What do you say to an atheist?

[VertigoAge]

It's rare that I run into a self-proclaimed atheist - agnostics are much more common in my circles. In either case, if the question comes up, I just keep it to talking about what faith means to me. I've had pretty good luck starting mutually respectful conversations that way. Recently, I had a great email conversation with a very anti-Christian person and was able to inform him of a few incorrect assumptions that he had. He was actually appreciative, and though he's still most likely a non-believer, planting a seed is never a bad thing. Bottom line: stay humble, avoid antagonistic arguments, and it might be worthwhile.

 

[Physicist]

It's rare that I run into a self-proclaimed atheist - agnostics are much more common in my circles. In either case, if the question comes up, I just keep it to talking about what faith means to me. I've had pretty good luck starting mutually respectful conversations that way. Recently, I had a great email conversation with a very anti-Christian person and was able to inform him of a few incorrect assumptions that he had. He was actually appreciative, and though he's still most likely a non-believer, planting a seed is never a bad thing. Bottom line: stay humble, avoid antagonistic arguments, and it might be worthwhile.

I would be curious as to what faith does mean to you. I am perplexed at why people would consider faith to be a virtue rather than a vice. The 9/11 Islamists had faith in their religious beliefs.

It appears to me that if something is really true, it can be empirically tested rather than accepted on blind faith.

 

[Physicist]

Honestly I feel pity for anyone who genuinely is an atheist! -it's like they are "dead" already and I would not wish anyone to live in a world how they envision it! That is my honest opinion. Do I say that to an atheist? -if he'd asked for my honest opinion yes.
Regards.
Anna

Why do you think that atheists like Isaac Asimov, Bill Gates, or Bill Maher are 'dead already''? How do you think they envision the world? Don't you think it is preferable to face the Real World the way it is rather than create an imaginary land filled with imaginary entities?

 

[ivdavid]

Physicist wrote:
It appears to me that if something is really true, it can be empirically tested rather than accepted on blind faith.

You're right - if something can be empirically tested, it should be. But not all things can be empirically tested for truth. We've reached that conclusion here - viewtopic.php?f=20&t=44216&start=60 .

Now say, I told you I'd drop by your place tomorrow evening and I asked you to be home. Have you empirically tested my statement? You still go ahead and believe it. Do you have any evidence of the same happening? You still are persuaded in your mind that it'll happen based on my saying so - that's faith. What is the evidence of this faith - you're staying home, waiting for me when you might have had other plans. Obviously, your level of faith might vary depending on who it is who says he'd come. The more reliable his past record to keep commitments, the more willing you are to trust him to keep his word.

Similarly, when God says He'd resurrect us into His presence if we continue believing in His Son, Jesus Christ, then this is accepted in faith based on His merit and nature. His past record is clearly documented in His written Word - the Bible. And He is who He is.

If you are referring to why we accept the existence of God in faith, that's because He is very real to us and we find meaning, purpose, hope, love, life in Him. Obviously, these don't come under empirical testing. So some things do require faith - finding whether it is faith or 'blind faith' needs some introspection.

 

[VertigoAge]

I would be curious as to what faith does mean to you. I am perplexed at why people would consider faith to be a virtue rather than a vice. The 9/11 Islamists had faith in their religious beliefs.

Faith is not a virtue or a vice... it is a belief in something that is beyond our vision to fully see and understand. I have faith that gravity exists, but I don't know all the math and astronomy that describes how it works. I have faith in our molecular structure, but I've never seen it. The only difference in faith in God is that nobody has proven it, or can (see below).

It appears to me that if something is really true, it can be empirically tested rather than accepted on blind faith.

This is one case where it cannot work that way. If God chose to reveal Himself to us in a way that was provable, there would be no need for faith... God would be accepted as fact, just as gravity is. How many people do you think would reject God's grace if it could be proven? For reasons unknown to us, God chose to make belief in him via faith a prerequisite for joining his kingdom... In part because it is NOT an obvious choice.

God gave us free will to reject him because if we were forced to be his subjects, we would just be puppets or robots. Love is only love when it is a choice, and if we truly knew the nature of God through proof, I'm sure that very few would have the guts to stand against Him.

 

[seekandlisten]

Faith is not a virtue or a vice... it is a belief in something that is beyond our vision to fully see and understand. I have faith that gravity exists, but I don't know all the math and astronomy that describes how it works. I have faith in our molecular structure, but I've never seen it. The only difference in faith in God is that nobody has proven it, or can (see below).

I think the terms 'faith' and 'belief' get mixed up sometimes. For instance, you said that you have 'faith' gravity exists. I would say that you 'believe' gravity exists because you have been told so and you accepted it. In the same sense you have been told about molecular structure and you choose to 'believe' it rather than reject it. This is not 'faith' but a 'belief' in my opinion. We choose to 'believe' what 'facts' we agree with and which ones we don't.

Let me put it this way, I would assume you have 'faith' in 'God' existing correct? Now to turn around and say you have 'faith' in a triune God would not be accurate, in my opinion. You have 'faith' in a 'God' existing and you 'believe' that this 'God' is triune as per described by your religous beliefs. Or another example would be that the Christian and Hindu both have 'faith' that 'God' exists yet what they 'believe' about this 'God' are very different.

Would you agree or disagree?

cheers

 

[VertigoAge]

Let me put it this way, I would assume you have 'faith' in 'God' existing correct? Now to turn around and say you have 'faith' in a triune God would not be accurate, in my opinion. You have 'faith' in a 'God' existing and you 'believe' that this 'God' is triune as per described by your religous beliefs. Or another example would be that the Christian and Hindu both have 'faith' that 'God' exists yet what they 'believe' about this 'God' are very different.

I totally agree... you put it much more eloquently than I did. In fact, the difference between the two is cause for a lot of division in our churches. Faith is the essential ingredient, and I believe there is room for some differences in beliefs. In fact, I believe that faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. If you ask for it, you'll get your own individualized "proof" knitted to your heart and mind... a feeling of "I just know". The trick is that the Holy Spirit wants to give you this proof, but can't let you prove it to someone else.

 

[seekandlisten]

The trick is that the Holy Spirit wants to give you this proof, but can't let you prove it to someone else.

The bible says to let your 'light shine before men' and to be 'salt of the earth' which would seem it is saying that one should not be 'overpowering' or 'overbearing' in their beliefs and not to assert but let them 'shine'. Would not the 'proof' be in the 'works' generated from these beliefs? If one's religion caused them to live a life of peace an harmony I would assume Athiests wouldn't have as much of a problem with gods.

cheers.

 

[VertigoAge]

The bible says to let your 'light shine before men' and to be 'salt of the earth' which would seem it is saying that one should not be 'overpowering' or 'overbearing' in their beliefs and not to assert but let them 'shine'. Would not the 'proof' be in the 'works' generated from these beliefs

It may provide compelling evidence, yes, but not scientific proof.

 

[seekandlisten]

The bible says to let your 'light shine before men' and to be 'salt of the earth' which would seem it is saying that one should not be 'overpowering' or 'overbearing' in their beliefs and not to assert but let them 'shine'. Would not the 'proof' be in the 'works' generated from these beliefs

It may provide compelling evidence, yes, but not scientific proof.

True, but without the 'compelling evidence' there is no case at all.

 

[Physicist]

Physicist wrote:
It appears to me that if something is really true, it can be empirically tested rather than accepted on blind faith.

You're right - if something can be empirically tested, it should be. But not all things can be empirically tested for truth. We've reached that conclusion here - viewtopic.php?f=20&t=44216&start=60 .

Now say, I told you I'd drop by your place tomorrow evening and I asked you to be home. Have you empirically tested my statement? You still go ahead and believe it. Do you have any evidence of the same happening? You still are persuaded in your mind that it'll happen based on my saying so - that's faith. What is the evidence of this faith - you're staying home, waiting for me when you might have had other plans. Obviously, your level of faith might vary depending on who it is who says he'd come. The more reliable his past record to keep commitments, the more willing you are to trust him to keep his word. [quote:15v5gedt]

I would say that your example is one not of faith but trust. Based upon past experience with reliable people, I would conclude that you, as a reliable person, would show up. However, if I thought you were a flake, I would not, based, again, on past experience. Such trust is based upon empirical data (past experience).

[quote:15v5gedt]
Similarly, when God says He'd resurrect us into His presence if we continue believing in His Son, Jesus Christ, then this is accepted in faith based on His merit and nature. His past record is clearly documented in His written Word - the Bible. And He is who He is.

If you are referring to why we accept the existence of God in faith, that's because He is very real to us and we find meaning, purpose, hope, love, life in Him. Obviously, these don't come under empirical testing. So some things do require faith - finding whether it is faith or 'blind faith' needs some introspection.

[/quote:15v5gedt][/quote:15v5gedt]

Understandable. I just encourage people, whatever their belief, to consider why they believe as they do. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Regards,
Physicist

 

[Nick]

Indeed faith and belief are two different things. We (as Christians) have faith in God. But even Satan and his demons believe in God.

 

[DarcyLu]

Indeed faith and belief are two different things. We (as Christians) have faith in God. But even Satan and his demons believe in God.

True, Nick.
if we tell people why we believe God, what He has done for us, the miraculous things He has done in our lives, how He has brought us through life situations, healed and shown Himself to us over and over again, people still would not believe in Him, even though Satan does.

 

[randon]

If someone mentions to you, without your asking, that they are an atheist, what do you say? Do you preach to them? Say as little as possible? What?

If someone chooses to express their faith (or lack thereof) to me, I would have no problem responding in kind, without trying to appear judgemental or disrespectful.

 

[Andrew]

If someone mentions to you, without your asking, that they are an atheist, what do you say? Do you preach to them? Say as little as possible? What?

I say I believe in the God of the Bible who says that you can know He exists by all He created. If this universe, or for that matter, your own body, aren't magnificent enough for you to see His existence, then there's nothing I can say to persuade you any other way.
Jesus said He had to return to the Father so He could send the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, who will guide us into all truth. Jesus said He is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; so obviously the Holy Spirit is guiding us to Him, by the changing and renewing of our minds. We have evidence of the Truth because we have the Holy Spirit of God living in us. The Word declares that without the Holy Spirit it is foolishness to man.
God says he chose the foolish things (thoughts) of the world to shame the wise, weak things to shame the strong, and speaks of things that are not as though they are, and things that are as though they are not.
He says He predestined us to be chosen. If you aren't called YET, that doesn't mean He won't call you some day. There was a day when I did not believe and was without God in my life, then I decided I just had to know, I needed to know there was meaning to all this madness, and hope for something better than this world was offering. My heart was broken, I was broken and thereby humble. God gives grace to the humble and by grace He saved me, and He gave me His promised Holy Spirit to SEAL my redemption (I accepted the invitation He handed to me).
Salvation is a done deal for God and offered to all, the problem is some people refuse to accept the gift, which is their freewill decision to do. In refusing, is it Gods decision, no, it is yours. This is why God condemns no man, all men condemn themselves.
We are created by an eternal being in His image which is eternal. He says He put eternity in the hearts of all men.
He says He has set before us life and death and hopes we choose life. I hope you choose life as well. Life is good and I am pleased to know that I am, but I'm even more pleased that In Him, by Him, and through Him I am and that He has revealed Himself to me so that, like Him, I can also always be.
Proof? Proof is in the Truth, and the Truth is in God, the Truth is God. He says, "I AM", and I'm glad; because He is, I am too.
Thank you Jesus for loving me even though I am a wretched man, and saving me from myself, and my self-destructive sinful nature. Thank you for showing me how to love, so that I do not hate You and spend eternity wallowing in my own contempt for You.