What do you think of this apologetic reasoning?

[live2blieve]

Bruce.Leiter basically said what I did, and you already agreed that:

"There are two conclusions from Paul's words:

• Obviously, many things cannot be known about God. Everybody agrees with that.
• However, some things may be known of God, because He showed them to people. In particular, Godhead is clearly seen or understood by the things that are made. So, people are without excuse of not knowing."

That is precisely what Bruce.Leiter stated--"it does mean that we can never fully understand him." You agree yet state "This is not what Paul said," so you're contradicting yourself.

I asked, "Does this mean that it is impossible to understand the Godhead?"

Bruce.Leiter responded, "Yes, live2blieve, it does mean that we can never fully understand him. He is a mystery beyond what the Bible says about him. After all, he is God; we're not."

So, the first statement is "Yes", i.e. it is impossible to understand the Godhead. Which is not what Paul said, i.e. that Godhead can be understood. I asked if it is possible to understand. I did not ask if we can understand fully or not.

 

[Free]

I asked, "Does this mean that it is impossible to understand the Godhead?"

Bruce.Leiter responded, "Yes, live2blieve, it does mean that we can never fully understand him. He is a mystery beyond what the Bible says about him. After all, he is God; we're not."

So, the first statement is "Yes", i.e. it is impossible to understand the Godhead. Which is not what Paul said, i.e. that Godhead can be understood. I asked if it is possible to understand. I did not ask if we can understand fully or not.

It doesn't really matter what you asked, but what the response was. You have to take what he said in context. He said "Yes," but then qualified that with "it does mean that we can never fully understand him. He is a mystery beyond what the Bible says about him."

 

[live2blieve]

It doesn't really matter what you asked, but what the response was. You have to take what he said in context. He said "Yes," but then qualified that with "it does mean that we can never fully understand him. He is a mystery beyond what the Bible says about him."

I understand what you are saying. I hope you understand me as well: for me what I ask does matter, and I like the precision in the answer. I don't think we should continue to discuss this matter .

 

[Groovy]

1) The God of the Bible is beyond human reasoning as three Persons in one God and Jesus as all-God and all-man.
2) The prophets and apostles who wrote the Bible had human reasoning.
3) Therefore, God had to have guided them in writing it because they couldn't have come up with God as Trinity and Jesus as fully human and fully human on their own.

Hey Bruce,

As you know I just joined CF and discovered this thread, whose topic I find intriguing, because I think
Christians are too quick to disparage the role of reasoning in God's revelation. I value logic/reason without intending to demean emotion. Both are important aspects of personality, but their relationship is analogous to that of saving faith and good works: faith precedes love (per Gal. 5:6), and right reasoning should guide one’s emotion.

Right reasoning or logic functions in a way similar to the OT law: leading sinful souls to learn the need for God’s Gospel (Gal. 3:19-25). Biblical passages that seem to support the view that human logic is a divine gift include the following:

1. “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. (Isa. 1:18a)

2. “They hated me without reason.” (John 15:25)

3. “So [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.” (Acts 17:17)

4. “We do, however, speak a message of wisdom [right reasoning] among the mature…” (1Cor. 2:6)

5. “When I was a child… I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.” (1Cor. 13:11)

6. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” (1Pet. 3:15b)

These passages indicate that we should think and attempt to learn the best beliefs/opinions or solutions regarding issues including the arguments or accusations of atheists. Right?

 

[Groovy]

I have to agree with Bruce.Leiter, and so does Peter:
"For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit". (2 Peter 1:21).

But the Bible clearly states that Jesus was God in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD". (John 1:1). That same WORD which was GOD then came and inhabited a human body: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth". (John 1:14) God came and dwelt in human flesh (Immanuel: "God with us")

It's amazing, that though this is clearly taught, many deny it and say Jesus was not God.

But the teaching of the Trinity is truly taught by revelation of the Spirit. The Bible does not have the word TRINITY in it---but the Bible clearly teaches it in many places. It is understood by divine revelation, not by human wisdom. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses cannot accept it--they use human wisdom to try to understand the Trinity. It cannot be done. Here is one instance of the Trinity clearly taught in Scripture, but only understood if taught by the Spirit:

"And JESUS, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the SPIRIT OF GOD descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matt. 3:16,17)

It is clear: I have capitalized the (3) Persons: JESUS, SPIRIT OF GOD, A VOICE FROM HEAVEN (THE FATHER). But the natural man cannot understand or accept this. This is a teaching that is understood by divine revelation. The Father through the Spirit must reveal it's truth to you.

An alternate understanding is that the reason God inspired the prophets and apostles was to convey His will regarding salvation to humanity, whom He loves and desires that they cooperate so they will fellowship in heaven.

Anything other than Scripture is commentary, including these posts by Fish and me. I have shared my comments regarding apologetic reasoning in the first lesson of a website that I invite everyone to use as a resource:
<truthseekersfellowship.com>. My interest in answering the objections of atheists came about this way:

My personality was rather introverted as a teenager, so I discussed my beliefs only with a few close friends. When I was a senior in high school, my favorite teacher was a former preacher turned agnostic, and in my freshman year of college, the daughter of a missionary became an atheist. My ignorance of answers to questions asked by skeptics prompted me to read the entire Bible, and I learned many things that were reassuring.

After college and military service I attended seminary where classes in systematic theology stimulated my thinking. During this time I heard a debate on the radio between Christian evangelist Bob Harrington and atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hair. Although the exchange was quite humorous, I was chagrined to concede that the atheist won the debate on substance, and I determined to seek better replies to such questions and criticisms.

Years later as a military chaplain, I encountered the Atheist Community of Austin and offered to speak at one of their meetings. I also debated atheists on an online chat site for several years. Although I cannot claim to have converted any of them, the discussions helped hone my beliefs, which I published on our website in 2005 as part of my ministry. I also appreciated a book by Dinesh D’Souza, “What’s So Great about God”, and the movie “God’s Not Dead”, as well as “Love God with All Your Mind” by J.P. Moreland, and the following excerpts express my experience:

“I used to be afraid of witnessing... I was rather defensive and nervous... But now I understand why I believe, and this has brought me both peace and a non-defensive boldness to witness to others.” (p.20) “Sunday School should be more effective in training believers how to think carefully about their faith. Training in apologetics should be a regular part of discipleship.” (p.26) “Our discipleship materials often leave Christian young people vulnerable to atheistic college professors.” (p.28) “The apostle Paul... reasoned with and tried to persuade people intelligently to accept Christ.” (p.30)

1 Peter 3:15b instructs Christians to “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have…”--IOW, to share our testimony. Our testimony is how we became and why we remain a Christian. Mine is that I was raised by loving, Christian parents, who were happily married for 70 years. I attended church regularly as a child, and about the age of eight I had enough courage to walk the aisle during an invitation and profess publicly my faith in Jesus by being baptized.

Anyone else want to share a testimony related to the topic of this thread?
LIC, Groovy