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What does the term Immaculate Conception mean?

Do you believe Mary was conceived sinless?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 2 100.0%

  • Total voters
    2
Rom 5:12 is referring to personal sin not the effects of original sin.

"The bloodline from Adam contained sin and death"
Scripture doesn't say that. You just made that up.





LOL!!!! :hysterical


Im trying to have a conversation with a person who is wanting to discuss
“original sin” a made up term, and you have the nerve to tell me the scripture I quoted doesn’t refer to your man made term.


That’s truly funny.


Please show me from the scriptures what original sin is, and where it’s found in scripture.


JLB
 
Rom 5:12 is referring to personal sin not the effects of original sin.

"The bloodline from Adam contained sin and death"
Scripture doesn't say that. You just made that up.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12


  • just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men

How does Adam’s one sin and death spread to all men?



JLB
 
Rom 5:12 is referring to personal sin not the effects of original sin.

"The bloodline from Adam contained sin and death"
Scripture doesn't say that. You just made that up.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19


  • For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners


How does Adams disobedience make us sinners?




JLB
 
Jesus got his human nature from Mary.
I'm not so sure I can agree. I believe Mary was the vessel God used but Jesus' human nature was His own doing. For the gospel according to John says,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.....The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 1:1-2, 9-11, 14 NKJV

It was all God.
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."
Luke 1:35 NKJV

Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:5b-8 NKJV
 
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12


  • just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men

How does Adam’s one sin and death spread to all men?



JLB



For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19


  • For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners


How does Adams disobedience make us sinners?




JLB


From the Catechism of The Catholic Church

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay".284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground",285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? the whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. and that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
 
LOL!!!! :hysterical


Im trying to have a conversation with a person who is wanting to discuss
“original sin” a made up term, and you have the nerve to tell me the scripture I quoted doesn’t refer to your man made term.


That’s truly funny.


Please show me from the scriptures what original sin is, and where it’s found in scripture.


JLB
Can't you tell the difference between a concept and the term used to name the concept?
 
I'm not so sure I can agree. I believe Mary was the vessel God used but Jesus' human nature was His own doing. For the gospel according to John says,
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.....The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 1:1-2, 9-11, 14 NKJV

It was all God.

The second person of the Trinity took on human nature. He received that human nature from Mary.

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

Luke 1:35 NKJV

V
s 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
Mary conceived in her womb. She didn't have a baby implanted in her.

Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:5b-8 NKJV

How does that show anything?

What you seem to be suggesting is the "celestial flesh" theory where God creaed the human Jesus as a foetus and Mary became a surrogate mother.

here are several scriptures that refute that.

1. Heb 2;14 says
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature,…
Jesus has the same nature – not a similar newly created nature.

2. Genesis 3:15
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
The ‘he’ is Jesus and he will be the seed of the woman. This clearly implies a genetic descent.

3. Gal 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ.
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from Abraham.

4. Gen 22;18
and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."
We are blessed through Christ. So he had to be a descendant of Abraham.

5. Rom 1:3
“…the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh”.
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David according to the flesh.

6. Rom 9:4-5
“They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.
Again, if Christ was a brand new creation he could not have been an Israelite according to the flesh.

7. Gal 4:4
“But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law”
The Greek for ‘born’ here is gemenenon, Strong 1096:
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),…
The KJV translates it as made.
Again this implies that Jesus body is generated (made) from Mary

8. Lk 1:31
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus”
By any normal interpretation conceive means to become pregnant with material from the mother.

9. Lk 1:32
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David”.
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David and therefore David could not be called his father and he would have no legitimate claim to the throne of David. God’s promise to David (2Sam 7:16) would have been broken:
“And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever.”
 
JLB & WIP

I'm going to have to leave this (and the Praying to Mary thread) for a few days. I'm travelling home over the next two days and will have a lot to do when I get back.

I'll try and pick it up on Fri or Sat.

God bless
Mungo
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB
The second person of the Trinity took on human nature. He received that human nature from Mary.



Vs 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
Mary conceived in her womb. She didn't have a baby implanted in her.



How does that show anything?

What you seem to be suggesting is the "celestial flesh" theory where God creaed the human Jesus as a foetus and Mary became a surrogate mother.

here are several scriptures that refute that.

1. Heb 2;14 says
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature,…
Jesus has the same nature – not a similar newly created nature.

2. Genesis 3:15
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
The ‘he’ is Jesus and he will be the seed of the woman. This clearly implies a genetic descent.

3. Gal 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many; but, referring to one, "And to your offspring," which is Christ.
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from Abraham.

4. Gen 22;18
and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."
We are blessed through Christ. So he had to be a descendant of Abraham.

5. Rom 1:3
“…the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh”.
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David according to the flesh.

6. Rom 9:4-5
“They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ.
Again, if Christ was a brand new creation he could not have been an Israelite according to the flesh.

7. Gal 4:4
“But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law”
The Greek for ‘born’ here is gemenenon, Strong 1096:
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),…
The KJV translates it as made.
Again this implies that Jesus body is generated (made) from Mary

8. Lk 1:31
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus”
By any normal interpretation conceive means to become pregnant with material from the mother.

9. Lk 1:32
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David”.
If Christ was a brand new creation he could not have descended from David and therefore David could not be called his father and he would have no legitimate claim to the throne of David. God’s promise to David (2Sam 7:16) would have been broken:
“And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever.”
Thank you for your reply. I will study this.
 
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