What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

[jocor]

Psa 19:7-8 The law of YHWH is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony (Ten Commandments) of YHWH is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of YHWH are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of YHWH is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Psa 78:5-7 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: That they might set their hope in Elohim, and not forget the works of El, but keep his commandments:

Psa 119:72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

Psa 119:97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

Psa 119:98-99 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

Psa 119:151 Thou art near, O YHWH; and all thy commandments are truth.

Psa 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies (Ten Commandments), I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.

Psa_119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O YHWH; and thy law is my delight.

Isa_5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of YHWH of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Ezekiel 36:26,27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHWH; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Mat 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Psalm 119:126 It is time for thee, Yahweh, to work: for they have made void thy law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom_7:25 I thank God through Yeshua Messiah our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.​

Is this how you view the Law of YHWH/God? Do you serve it with your mind or does your flesh refuse to be subject to it? Have you made the Law void through your faith or is it firmly established in your life? Do you love the Law of YHWH? Is it your delight or have you cast it away from you? Do you break the Law of YHWH and teach others to do the same or do you keep it? If you believe the Law is abolished, I hope you will reconsider your understanding of the Law of YHWH and begin to show your love for YHWH in the way He desires by keeping His laws.

 

[Deborah13]

Heb 8:13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
What is the 'new'? What is the 'old'? What became obsolete?

 

[jocor]

Heb 8:13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
What is the 'new'? What is the 'old'? What became obsolete?

This new covenant has a new sacrifice in the blood of Messiah Yeshua vs. the old's animal blood; a new mediator in Messiah vs. the old mediator, Moses; a new ministration in the spirit vs. the oldness of the letter; a new High Priest in Yeshua vs. the old high priest, Aaron; a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek vs. the older order of Levi; new promises based on the eternal rather than the temporal, and a new ministration of the Law in that it becomes internal vs. the old way, external.

The Old Covenant as a whole system becomes obsolete for those entering the New Covenant through the blood of Yeshua. For those who do not receive Yeshua, they remain under the OC. What became obsolete was everything I mentioned above as old.

Our computers become obsolete when new and better ones are created. However, certain things are carried over into the newer models such as the housing, screen, keyboard, jacks, etc. These things are made better, but they were aspects of the old computers as well.

 

[Deborah13]

This new covenant has a new sacrifice in the blood of Messiah Yeshua vs. the old's animal blood; a new mediator in Messiah vs. the old mediator, Moses; a new ministration in the spirit vs. the oldness of the letter; a new High Priest in Yeshua vs. the old high priest, Aaron; a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek vs. the older order of Levi; new promises based on the eternal rather than the temporal, and a new ministration of the Law in that it becomes internal vs. the old way, external.

Nice.
We just disagree that the internal law includes eating kosher etc. for everyone in the new covenant.

The Old Covenant as a whole system becomes obsolete for those entering the New Covenant through the blood of Yeshua. For those who do not receive Yeshua, they remain under the OC. What became obsolete was everything I mentioned above as old.

I agree, the whole system becomes obsolete. Therefore the laws of that system become obsolete. But that doesn't leave the new covenant believers lawless because as we said there are laws that are eternal from the being to the end.
I don't know of any scripture that says the old covenant system was ever given to anyone living outside of the land of Israel. Do you have a scripture for that?
I believe that all men are without excuse because YHVH created men with a conscience and they know good vs evil, per Romans 1 and Genesis, tree of knowledge. They are where Adam was after he sinned and before YHVH made the blood sacrifice for him in the garden. They have sinned against YHVH, they have not acknowledged this and repented, therefore they are not covered by the blood sacrifice of Yeshua.

Our computers become obsolete when new and better ones are created. However, certain things are carried over into the newer models such as the housing, screen, keyboard, jacks, etc. These things are made better, but they were aspects of the old computers as well.

Good analogy. And some things that the old computer included are not included in the new computer at all. Such as out dated operating systems. Old games that once played successfully no longer will because the operating system dropped certain rules.

 

[jocor]

Nice.
We just disagree that the internal law includes eating kosher etc. for everyone in the new covenant.

What verses allow you to eat unclean meat? Do you include the four laws given to Gentile converts as part of the internal law? If not, why were they given? Acts 15:21 tells us only those four were given at that time because Moses is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. The Gentile converts would eventually learn the rest of the Law later.

I agree, the whole system becomes obsolete. Therefore the laws of that system become obsolete. But that doesn't leave the new covenant believers lawless because as we said there are laws that are eternal from the being to the end.
I don't know of any scripture that says the old covenant system was ever given to anyone living outside of the land of Israel. Do you have a scripture for that?
I believe that all men are without excuse because YHVH created men with a conscience and they know good vs evil, per Romans 1 and Genesis, tree of knowledge. They are where Adam was after he sinned and before YHVH made the blood sacrifice for him in the garden. They have sinned against YHVH, they have not acknowledged this and repented, therefore they are not covered by the blood sacrifice of Yeshua.

I did not say people outside of Israel were given the OC. I said, "they remain under the OC" meaning those that were already under it, but did not receive Yeshua. I agree concerning the conscience and Yeshua's blood.

Were the four laws given to the Gentile converts in Acts 15 eternal? I don't think so. At least two of them are dietary laws given after the flood. The Sabbath, however, is from the beginning and will be until the end.

 

[Sinthesis]

Is this how you view the Law of YHWH/God? Do you serve it with your mind or does your flesh refuse to be subject to it? Have you made the Law void through your faith or is it firmly established in your life? Do you love the Law of YHWH? Is it your delight or have you cast it away from you? Do you break the Law of YHWH and teach others to do the same or do you keep it? If you believe the Law is abolished, I hope you will reconsider your understanding of the Law of YHWH and begin to show your love for YHWH in the way He desires by keeping His laws.

Do you serve the law or do you serve YHWH?
Are you subject to the law or subject to YHWH?
Do you love the law or do you love YHWH?
Is your delight the law or is it YHWH?

Mat 6:24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.​

We have to be careful not to idolize the law, which is what the Pharisees were guilty of, because the law cannot save. Only God can save, thus we worship Jesus Christ who is God the Son, the work of Whom fulfilled the purpose of the law and supersedes it as the guide of our daily lives through the leadership of The Holy Spirit.

Rom 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
​

How do we show our love for YHWH? Not by obsessing over the letter of the law, but instead paying forward the love Jesus showed for us when He purchased our freedom from death with His Blood.

Gal 5:13 - For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

 

[rthom7]

Jocor writes well, I hope from reading his material, that the torah is eternal, just, holy and good. There were two revelations of torah in Scripture in the OT. The Father Yahweh revealed an arrangement of words both spoken and written with His finger in tables of stone,
the ten commandments, and added no more, and placed them under the mercy seat, a symbol where the Father sits, sowing that these words, are natural laws of love, whole attitudes about love in deep broad principles.

The Son Yahweh also provided a torah, but with a difference, a torah that could save sinners, where as the Father's laws could only save one if that had never sinned. Thus the Son's torah was given as a witness to the Father's torah, and indeed to show mankind a way to salvation, to the obedience of torah, so that we mind be glorified by the SON and empowered to guard the torah of love, as all heavenly beings do....but we cannot be saved by torah keeping...such legalism is an impossibility in human strength...we are though saved through the Son's torah, and together in cooperation with His power, we are able to guard both the Son's love and our Father's love.

Scripture shows us these two torah revelations of love this way in simple terms:

Joh 15:10 If ye keep Jesus' commandments, ye shall abide in Jesus' love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in the Father's love.

Two things to notice here, torah is the same as love. In fact love is a natural law of torah in action. There are two revelation's of love here, the Father and the Son. So where was the Son's commandments in the OT? We call them the torah of Moses, but Moses was a typology of Christ, and it was Jesus who spoke His torah of salvation to Moses to place in the side of the ark as a witness to His Father's love.

When Jesus came to die on the Cross, His torah of salvation changed the manner of His torah of salvation, just as a newly wedded couple living in an old home, suddenly is moved to a brand new home, the love arrangements change because love is placed in new skins. Jesus told the story how wine (love) must be placed in a new skin bag, so it is preserved, does not mean the love or wine is changed, but the external manner I such love is expressed is changed.

For example if we sin, we come to Jesus directly in prayer as our High Priest, to His temple in heaven, we are also priests with our own temple, and we ask for His forgiveness. And what is the sacrifice we offer both morning and evening ?

Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Here in Hebrew we also see the same word "tamiyid" or "continually" so has Jesus torah of salvation in Leviticus changed ? Yes physically changed, but no not physically changed. We offer our minds as sacrifices of love, not some animal we loved that could not save us, but Jesus mind in our mind truly saves us.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

From the same chapter Paul writes love does not change....

Le 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

When you go to your cupboard for harvest of food, give some of your blessings away to the poor.

Le 19:14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD
Show respect to cripples.

1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Cross reference the OT love in a NT setting.

Love can be revealed in new cultures and settings, but the old principle's of love does not change. So rather than say a love rule is abolished ask yourself how has this love rule changed for a new cultural setting.

Shalom

 

[jocor]

Do you serve the law or do you serve YHWH?
Are you subject to the law or subject to YHWH?
Do you love the law or do you love YHWH?
Is your delight the law or is it YHWH?

Do you serve the law or do you serve YHWH? I serve YHWH by obeying His commandments.
Are you subject to the law or subject to YHWH? Both. Romans 8:6-9 teaches us that the spiritually minded person is subject to the Law of YHWH, but the carnally minded person is not.
Do you love the law or do you love YHWH? Both. I love YHWH and all that He has for us.
Is your delight the law or is it YHWH? Both. I delight in YHWH and the things He wants me to delight in (Psalm 1:2; 40:8; 119:70,77).
Isa 58:13-14 is important to understand;

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of YHWH, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in YHWH; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken it.
​

First comes obedience to the Sabbath command. Once you experience it and realize the great gift YHWH has given us through it, THEN we can delight in YHWH even more than before.

Mat 6:24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Mammon means wealth. We can serve YHWH by obeying His laws. The Law is not our Master. We are to yield ourselves to YHWH and OBEY Him as Romans 6:16 says. When we disobey His laws, it is SIN.

We have to be careful not to idolize the law, which is what the Pharisees were guilty of, because the law cannot save.

I agree.

Only God can save, thus we worship Jesus Christ who is God the Son, the work of Whom fulfilled the purpose of the law and supersedes it as the guide of our daily lives through the leadership of The Holy Spirit.

He fulfilled the Law by obeying it all. If he superseded the Law he would not have said;

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Mt 5:17-19)​

Rom 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The Law did not die, believers died. Other versions read, "...being dead to that wherein we were held." Yes, we serve in newness of Spirit. The Spirit within us under the NC causes us to keep YHWH's laws that are now written on our hearts (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

​

How do we show our love for YHWH? Not by obsessing over the letter of the law, but instead paying forward the love Jesus showed for us when He purchased our freedom from death with His Blood.

Gal 5:13 - For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

[/QUOTE]

This is how we show love to YHWH:

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
​

This is how we show love to Yeshua:

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

Gal 5:13-14 is how we show love for our neighbour.

What you call "obsessing over the letter of the law," I would call delighting to obey YHWH and doing what He says to do out of love for Him.

 

[Deborah13]

What verses allow you to eat unclean meat? Do you include the four laws given to Gentile converts as part of the internal law? If not, why were they given?

Your two threads are starting to overlap in what is being addressed. So I copied over your question and my response to here.

Afterwards they had no problem commanding the Gentile converts to keep four commands from the Law of Moses. Why? They were commanding them to be kept for salvation. This also proves that the two greatest commandments are not the only laws we must keep. In reality, there are many laws given through Moses that we must obey, the two greatest head that list followed by the Ten Commandments and many others.

I would say the ones they said needed to be kept are those that pertain to idolatry that the pagan religions were guilty of doing in their pagan worship and that many of the Gentiles had been participating in. We can see this both in the OT and in the history that is written about the pagan worship ceremonies. I think this clearly falls under the first commandment given by Yeshua. To love YHVH with all the heart, mind, and soul. One cannot be worshiping other gods and knowingly practicing that form of worship and say they love YHVH as the One God of all creation.
Deu 23:18 thou dost not bring a gift of a whore, or a price of a dog, into the house of Yehovah thy God, for any vow; for the abomination of Yehovah thy God are even both of them.
Jer 44:19 and when we are making perfume to the queen of the heavens, and pouring out to her libations--without our husbands have we made for her cakes to idolize her, and to pour out to her libations?'
Not even looking at the many mentions of Baal/Molech, these are just a couple of pagan worship customs that took the form of sexual, dumb beasts, and food worship customs. They shed the innocent blood of their own children. They took no care to the torture of a dumb beast which YHVH clearly taught against.

Acts 15:21 tells us only those four were given at that time because Moses is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. The Gentile converts would eventually learn the rest of the Law later.

I don't think that Christian Gentiles were welcome in the Jewish synagogues when they were throwing Paul out of synagogues and cities. They may have been tolerant of their own Jewish brothers for a time but that clearly didn't last.
Act 14:19 And there came thither, from Antioch and Iconium, Jews, and they having persuaded the multitudes, and having stoned Paul, drew him outside of the city, having supposed him to be dead;

Act 21:27 And, as the seven days were about to be fully ended, the Jews from Asia having beheld him in the temple, were stirring up all the multitude, and they laid hands upon him,
Act 21:28 crying out, `Men, Israelites, help! this is the man who, against the people, and the law, and this place, all everywhere is teaching; and further, also, Greeks he brought into the temple, and hath defiled this holy place;'

It seems to me that verse 21 is referring to the Christian Jews in Antioch that heard in the synagogues and needed no instruction or reminders. The letter of instruction from Jerusalem was to the Gentiles only.

I did not say people outside of Israel were given the OC. I said, "they remain under the OC" meaning those that were already under it, but did not receive Yeshua. I agree concerning the conscience and Yeshua's blood.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you were referring to all men not just the unbelieving Jews.

Were the four laws given to the Gentile converts in Acts 15 eternal? I don't think so. At least two of them are dietary laws given after the flood. The Sabbath, however, is from the beginning and will be until the end.

I believe we have entered into His Rest (Sabbath) and are continually in that Rest.
Heb 4:9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for he who did enter into his rest, he also rested from his works, as God from His own.

 

[jocor]

I don't think that Christian Gentiles were welcome in the Jewish synagogues when they were throwing Paul out of synagogues and cities. They may have been tolerant of their own Jewish brothers for a time but that clearly didn't last.
Act 14:19 And there came thither, from Antioch and Iconium, Jews, and they having persuaded the multitudes, and having stoned Paul, drew him outside of the city, having supposed him to be dead;

Act 21:27 And, as the seven days were about to be fully ended, the Jews from Asia having beheld him in the temple, were stirring up all the multitude, and they laid hands upon him,
Act 21:28 crying out, `Men, Israelites, help! this is the man who, against the people, and the law, and this place, all everywhere is teaching; and further, also, Greeks he brought into the temple, and hath defiled this holy place;'

It seems to me that verse 21 is referring to the Christian Jews in Antioch that heard in the synagogues and needed no instruction or reminders. The letter of instruction from Jerusalem was to the Gentiles only.

I believe the Gentiles heard Moses read while listening from outside the synagogue based on Acts 13:42-44.

Verse 21 is not referring only to Antioch.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

The letter was then sent to Antioch and Syria and Cilicia (verse 23).

I believe we have entered into His Rest (Sabbath) and are continually in that Rest.
Heb 4:9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for he who did enter into his rest, he also rested from his works, as God from His own.

I disagree, but that is a subject for another thread.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe the Gentiles heard Moses read while listening from outside the synagogue based on Acts 13:42-44.

Yes they were listening to Paul preach the gospel in the synagogue. I think they must not have been believers or they would have heard the message already.

Verse 21 is not referring only to Antioch.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

The letter was then sent to Antioch and Syria and Cilicia (verse 23).

Quite right, sorry, I was being lazy.

I disagree, but that is a subject for another thread.

This is your thread.

 

[jocor]

I believe we have entered into His Rest (Sabbath) and are continually in that Rest.
Heb 4:9 there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,
Heb 4:10 for he who did enter into his rest, he also rested from his works, as God from His own.

You talked me into addressing this

The original account from which Hebrews 4:1-11 is taken is found in Numbers 14:22-24, 28-30, and Deuteronomy 1:30-40. In both passages it was the "land" (of Canaan) that was being withheld because of unbelief. The children of Israel were on their wilderness journey to the "promised land," which was a type of the "rest" to come. Joshua brought them into that land or the typical "rest" (Josh 1:13-15; 21:44; 22:4), yet the Almighty again spoke through David concerning this greater rest. In Psalm 95:11, David uses the phrase "my rest" instead of "the land" as in the original promise. Why? Because "the land" was only a type of the future rest to come when true believers enter into the true promised land, the "heavenly country" that the patriarchs of old saw from afar (Heb 11:13-16).

We are currently on our wilderness journey as well. We are heading for the heavenly country promised us. Just as the Israelites continued keeping the Sabbath rest throughout their wilderness journey, so, too, must we continue to keep the Sabbath rest. In fact, the Israelites continued to keep the Sabbath even after entering the typical promised land of Canaan. We, too, will continue in the Sabbath rest as prophesied by Isaiah (66:22,23) even after the new heaven and new earth come.

If the common Christian view of Heb 4:10 is correct, that the Sabbath is abolished because we have entered the true rest, then, to be consistent, it must also be true that all work is abolished since we have ceased from our own works. In other words, if the physical rest is done away with, then the physical labor should also be done away with. However, since believers continue to do physical labors like farming, construction work, etc., they should also continue to rest from such labor as it is written. Additionally, the Sabbath rest is commanded for the sake of animals as well. Is it now permissible for farmers to work their animals seven days a week? Do animals somehow enter into the true rest as well?

Hebrews 4:11 talks about laboring to enter into that rest. It is not something we automatically receive upon accepting Yeshua as our Savior except by faith. That rest will become a reality upon our resurrection unto eternal life. That is why we see the saints of Revelation 14:12,13 laboring right up until death. It is only after death that the ultimate rest can literally begin. Note, also, that those saints "keep the commandments of God" (KJV), among which is the Sabbath.

We certainly can find rest for our souls in Messiah (Matthew 11:28,29), but he does not give our bodies rest, nor does he give animals rest. That kind of rest is only available through the Sabbath rest. Jeremiah 6:16 reads, "Thus saith Yahweh, 'Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' But they said, 'We will not walk therein.' " The "old paths" and the "good way" that provides a "rest for the soul" includes the keeping of Yahweh's Sabbaths. Notice the similar wording found in Isaiah 58:12,13. The rest we have in Yeshua is only a foretaste of the rest to come at his second coming when we will be dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in the glorious "heavenly country".

Deuteronomy 5:15 reads, "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that Yahweh thy Elohim brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore Yahweh thy Elohim commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day." Notice the keeping of the Sabbath rest followed the Israelite redemption from slavery and bondage. How much more should we keep the Sabbath with joy overflowing after our greater redemption from sin and death? Why? Because every time we keep the Sabbath holy; we remember and proclaim who it is that provided this great deliverance for us (Deut 5:15); we remember and proclaim who it is that sanctifies us (Ex 31:13); we remember and proclaim who it is that created us and all things (Ex 20:11); and we delight in both the Sabbath and Yahweh Himself, and honor Yahweh by doing His will and good pleasure (Is 58:13,14). The Sabbath is truly holy, sanctified, blessed, delightful, and honorable.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Which law are you under?

Jesus came in flesh to guide us under the law of the Spirit. His Spirit.

 

[jocor]

Romans 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Which law are you under?

Jesus came in flesh to guide us under the law of the Spirit. His Spirit.

I am under the "law of the Spirit of life" which is a principle of the New Covenant. It is not a literal law that one obeys and is rewarded with life. We are saved by grace through faith, not by obedience to any law.

The "law of the Spirit of life" and the "law of sin and death" are not literal laws with commandments. They are principles. The latter principle is this; if you break Yahweh's literal law under the Old Covenant, you sin and the wages of sin is death. The former principle is this; If you break Yahweh's literal law under the New Covenant, you will not die because Yeshua already paid that price. Instead, you will live if his Spirit lives in you.

 

[Chopper]

Very interesting thread Jacor, thank you for posting your thoughts. Being born again by the grace of God, His Commandments are itched into my heart. I love the commands of my Heavenly Father as well as the commands of my Master Jesus. There seems to be a supernatural peace that accompanies loving the rules, statutes and commands of a Holy God and His Son Jesus the Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

You talked me into addressing this

:nod

The original account from which Hebrews 4:1-11 is taken is found in Numbers 14:22-24, 28-30, and Deuteronomy 1:30-40. In both passages it was the "land" (of Canaan) that was being withheld because of unbelief. The children of Israel were on their wilderness journey to the "promised land," which was a type of the "rest" to come. Joshua brought them into that land or the typical "rest" (Josh 1:13-15; 21:44; 22:4), yet the Almighty again spoke through David concerning this greater rest. In Psalm 95:11, David uses the phrase "my rest" instead of "the land" as in the original promise. Why? Because "the land" was only a type of the future rest to come when true believers enter into the true promised land, the "heavenly country" that the patriarchs of old saw from afar (Heb 11:13-16).

Not all those in the wilderness entered into the 'land' rest because of their lack of faith in the promise.

We are currently on our wilderness journey as well. We are heading for the heavenly country promised us. Just as the Israelites continued keeping the Sabbath rest throughout their wilderness journey, so, too, must we continue to keep the Sabbath rest. In fact, the Israelites continued to keep the Sabbath even after entering the typical promised land of Canaan. We, too, will continue in the Sabbath rest as prophesied by Isaiah (66:22,23) even after the new heaven and new earth come.

While I agree there is still a future 'heavenly promise' for all those who have faith I believe that those in Yeshua have entered into His rest. We rest from 'our' works.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The Israelites entered into a physical land promise. The believer, through the Messiah, enters into the Kingdom of God.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

The old testament saints had to wait but as Mark 1:15 says, the time was fulfilled, the Messiah came, the gospel of the kingdom came, redemption came, and the kingdom came. Mark 9:1 says that there where people standing there as Yeshua spoke that would be alive to see the kingdom of God come with power.

If the common Christian view of Heb 4:10 is correct, that the Sabbath is abolished because we have entered the true rest, then, to be consistent, it must also be true that all work is abolished since we have ceased from our own works.

I don't speak for other Christians or a common Christian view, only what I believe. Others must speak for themselves. To me the rest from our own works, means our own works for justification. Our justification is all in the works of the Messiah. This is the rest that is eternal.

In other words, if the physical rest is done away with, then the physical labor should also be done away with. However, since believers continue to do physical labors like farming, construction work, etc., they should also continue to rest from such labor as it is written. Additionally, the Sabbath rest is commanded for the sake of animals as well. Is it now permissible for farmers to work their animals seven days a week? Do animals somehow enter into the true rest as well?

I believe we should still take time to rest from physical labor. I also believe we should come together in fellowship with other Christians just as Paul says in the new testament. What I don't believe is that it Must be on the 7th day or even on the 1st day. Man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man. The Sabbath is grace to us not a laborious work.

Hebrews 4:11 talks about laboring to enter into that rest. It is not something we automatically receive upon accepting Yeshua as our Savior except by faith. That rest will become a reality upon our resurrection unto eternal life. That is why we see the saints of Revelation 14:12,13 laboring right up until death. It is only after death that the ultimate rest can literally begin. Note, also, that those saints "keep the commandments of God" (KJV), among which is the Sabbath.

Again...
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
What does that word translated as 'labour' look like in the Greek? 'eagerness, earnestness, use speed, diligence
This is my understanding of those verses.
If a believer continues in his own works rather than the works of God, he is in danger of falling into unbelief. Don't mess around, get busy, don't be a slacker, work earnestly at doing the works of God. What are the works of God?
Joh_6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh_9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Love, mercy, compassion.
Act_2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
The gospel message of the risen Lord.

We certainly can find rest for our souls in Messiah (Matthew 11:28,29), but he does not give our bodies rest, nor does he give animals rest. That kind of rest is only available through the Sabbath rest. Jeremiah 6:16 reads, "Thus saith Yahweh, 'Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' But they said, 'We will not walk therein.' " The "old paths" and the "good way" that provides a "rest for the soul" includes the keeping of Yahweh's Sabbaths. Notice the similar wording found in Isaiah 58:12,13. The rest we have in Yeshua is only a foretaste of the rest to come at his second coming when we will be dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in the glorious "heavenly country".

I don't know what eternity will be like in the 'heavenly country'.
It is our souls that need to rest in Him, it is our souls that prosper when we rest in Him. All else is added grace.
3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
Yes, I see Isaiah 58:12-13. I also see what those words and works of the Lord are in the preceding verses.

Isa 58:13 If thou dost turn from the sabbath thy foot, Doing thine own pleasure on My holy day, And hast cried to the sabbath, `A delight,' To the holy of Yehovah, `Honoured,' And hast honoured it, without doing thine own ways, Without finding thine own pleasure, And speaking a word.
Isa 58:14 Then dost thou delight thyself on Yehovah, And I have caused thee to ride on high places of earth, And have caused thee to eat the inheritance of Jacob thy father, For the mouth of Yehovah hath spoken!
The 7th day Sabbath was given to the physical, ethnic nation of Israel. Even in the Law of Moses. We see this in the inheritance of Jacob their father as the verse says.
The Israel of God, their/our inheritance is of father Abraham who was given the promise even before he was circumcised and 430 yrs. before the Law of Moses. The covenant that the old covenant, Law of Moses, could not disannul.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, as a man I say it , even of man a confirmed covenant no one doth make void or doth add to,
Gal 3:16 and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, `And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, `And to thy seed,' which is Christ;
Gal 3:17 and this I say, A covenant confirmed before by God to Christ, the law, that came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not set aside, to make void the promise,
Gal 3:18 for if by law be the inheritance, it is no more by promise, but to Abraham through promise did God grant it .

Deuteronomy 5:15 reads, "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that Yahweh thy Elohim brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore Yahweh thy Elohim commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day." Notice the keeping of the Sabbath rest followed the Israelite redemption from slavery and bondage. How much more should we keep the Sabbath with joy overflowing after our greater redemption from sin and death? Why? Because every time we keep the Sabbath holy; we remember and proclaim who it is that provided this great deliverance for us (Deut 5:15); we remember and proclaim who it is that sanctifies us (Ex 31:13); we remember and proclaim who it is that created us and all things (Ex 20:11); and we delight in both the Sabbath and Yahweh Himself, and honor Yahweh by doing His will and good pleasure (Is 58:13,14). The Sabbath is truly holy, sanctified, blessed, delightful, and honorable.

I agree with all of this. What I don't agree with is that 'holy day' MUST be on the 7th day.

 

[jocor]

I don't speak for other Christians or a common Christian view, only what I believe. Others must speak for themselves. To me the rest from our own works, means our own works for justification. Our justification is all in the works of the Messiah. This is the rest that is eternal.

I totally agree. This spiritual rest is totally different from the physical rest the Sabbath provides.

I believe we should still take time to rest from physical labor. I also believe we should come together in fellowship with other Christians just as Paul says in the new testament. What I don't believe is that it Must be on the 7th day or even on the 1st day. Man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man. The Sabbath is grace to us not a laborious work.

So are you say that keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day is laborious?? I can safely say beyond any shadow of a doubt that if a "sabbath" is kept on any other day of the week besides the one Yahweh commanded, sanctified, blessed, and made holy, then it is not THE Sabbath Day. It is simply a day that man chooses in defiance of his Creator's will. It is the exaltation of the traditions of men over the commandments of Yahweh.

The 7th day Sabbath was given to the physical, ethnic nation of Israel. Even in the Law of Moses. We see this in the inheritance of Jacob their father as the verse says.

Yes, it was given to Israel, but it was also given to all mankind. "The Sabbath was made for man, ..." Yeshua did not say, "The Sabbath was made for the Jew, ..." When Yahweh rested on that first Sabbath, He blessed it, sanctified it, and made it a holy day. The Sabbath was made for Adam and all men thereafter. It was being kept even before it was given on tables of stone (Ex 16).

 

[jocor]

Very interesting thread Jacor, thank you for posting your thoughts. Being born again by the grace of God, His Commandments are itched into my heart. I love the commands of my Heavenly Father as well as the commands of my Master Jesus. There seems to be a supernatural peace that accompanies loving the rules, statutes and commands of a Holy God and His Son Jesus the Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

I totally agree. This spiritual rest is totally different from the physical rest the Sabbath provides.
So are you say that keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day is laborious?? I can safely say beyond any shadow of a doubt that if a "sabbath" is kept on any other day of the week besides the one Yahweh commanded, sanctified, blessed, and made holy, then it is not THE Sabbath Day. It is simply a day that man chooses in defiance of his Creator's will. It is the exaltation of the traditions of men over the commandments of Yahweh.

No I not saying that keeping any sabbath is laborious or that any day with the Lord is laborious.

Yes, it was given to Israel, but it was also given to all mankind. "The Sabbath was made for man, ..." Yeshua did not say, "The Sabbath was made for the Jew, ..." When Yahweh rested on that first Sabbath, He blessed it, sanctified it, and made it a holy day. The Sabbath was made for Adam and all men thereafter. It was being kept even before it was given on tables of stone (Ex 16).

Yes, YHVH rested on the 7th day and He declared that day holy.
I don't see any observance of a 7th day Sabbath before Ex 16. I don't think there was because Moses explains,, in Deut 5, why the 7th day Sabbath was instituted.
Deu 5:15 and thou hast remembered that a servant thou hast been in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God is bringing thee out thence by a strong hand, and by a stretched-out arm; therefore hath Yehovah thy God commanded thee to keep the day of the sabbath.
It was given for them to remember that they were slaves in Egypt and that by His hand He brought them out.

I see a few things in Ex.16. I believe this chapter has the first mention of the omer and as the omer being a tenth of an ephah. The omer of manna placed before the Lord,( placed in the ark of the covenant?). The omer being the firstfruits of the barley harvest lifted up to the Lord during the days of unleavened bread. A shadow of the Messiah, the firstfruits of the resurrection.

 

[jocor]

No I not saying that keeping any sabbath is laborious or that any day with the Lord is laborious.

Yes, YHVH rested on the 7th day and He declared that day holy.
I don't see any observance of a 7th day Sabbath before Ex 16. I don't think there was because Moses explains,, in Deut 5, why the 7th day Sabbath was instituted.
Deu 5:15 and thou hast remembered that a servant thou hast been in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God is bringing thee out thence by a strong hand, and by a stretched-out arm; therefore hath Yehovah thy God commanded thee to keep the day of the sabbath.
It was given for them to remember that they were slaves in Egypt and that by His hand He brought them out.

I see a few things in Ex.16. I believe this chapter has the first mention of the omer and as the omer being a tenth of an ephah. The omer of manna placed before the Lord,( placed in the ark of the covenant?). The omer being the firstfruits of the barley harvest lifted up to the Lord during the days of unleavened bread. A shadow of the Messiah, the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which YHWH hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto YHWH: ...
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How could the next day be the holy Sabbath if it was not yet commanded from Mt. Sinai? Because it already existed from day 7 of the creation week. You don't need to see the Sabbath being observed before Ex 16 to know it was. Yeshua's words are all we need;

"The Sabbath was made for man, ..." It was made for all men, not just men that lived after Ex 16 and not just for Jews, but all mankind. It was Yahweh's blessing to all of His new creatures.

In Deu 5:15, an additional purpose was stated for giving the Sabbath to Israel. The primary reason was so they could be blessed with a physical rest from their labors.