What gave Satan the thought to rebel against God?

[smaller]

Smaller,
This is exactly what I was "getting at", which only you have address.

This is what I wrote;
"I would like to go back to the beginning of this thread and what I believe is a problem for the orthodox belief that Satan was at one time without sin. We know that Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan who enters their world of spiritual and physical sinless bliss. Have you ever wondered about the fact that Satan was a mismatch for the two? This leads me to agree at least in part with the Supralapsarian Calvinist crowd, that God planned their fall.

I believe that the Calvin position above on this matter is generally true.

Now, we understand that an outside stimulus (Satan) got the “ball rolling†in regards to sin (evil) entering the world through our first parents, but what stimulus caused Satan to be sinful?

Jesus already delivered us the 'goods' of understanding what actually happened to Adam and Eve. There is no use NOT applying the teachings of Jesus unto Adam and Eve in relationship to SATAN/the serpent's ENTRY into the DUST bodies/minds of them both, as follows:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

I believe this IDENTICAL FACT is openly shown again and again in the scriptures. Peter demonstrated it with the speaking of Satan from him, Judas had Satan enter him, Paul had EVIL PRESENT, and even A DEVIL put upon him. The ENTIRE nation of UNbelieving Israel had in fact A SPIRIT OF SLUMBER (which also happened to Adam!) PUT UPON THEM BY GOD according to Paul in Romans 11:8-9.

Jesus taught this principle as FOUNDATIONAL to 'HIM' Building His Church.

God USES evil to HONE and FASHION His children. This 'causes' the very REAL formation of HOPE within our hearts for that working to END. This 'causes' us TO KNOW of our dire need for HIS MERCY and HIS GRACE as a very REAL need.

I have no problems with understanding the workings of EVIL in this way and that by GODS OWN INTENTIONS.

God DOES make GOOD come about by that deployment. He can because HE IS GOD.

As I said in the beginning, if in a perfect environment in the presence of the Triune God, an evil thought entered the mind of Satan (pride), what would keep it from happening again amongst us the redeemed in Glory? I believe this possibility would be very problematic to those who think Satan had been created sinless. Is there someone who maybe can address this conundrum?

I believe that presentation is a valid question to freewillers. IF the will is FREE ENOUGH to 'generate' and 'create' EVIL all on it's own, then it COULD continue to happen, again and again, forever.

I also find it interesting that the same Hebrew word for evil found in Genesis 2:9 for the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil†is also the same word for Isaiah 45:7, “7Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things (YLT).†Is it possible that God in fact “prepared evil†in the form of Satan as an instrument to cause a contrast of “good and evil†for our benefit, yet He Himself is not evil?"

Bubba

ABSOLUTELY. God can create any 'thing' or 'power' and NOT BE THAT which He creates. IF we believe that God IS that which is created by Him, then that ground is automatically POLY-theism.

I make the same observation with 'pure literalists' when they say A LITERAL TREE with LITERAL FRUIT can 'provide' eternal life. There is only ONE SOURCE of ETERNAL LIFE, and that IS GOD ALONE. If there is GOD and A LITERAL TREE, that is by standard definition, POLY-THEISM.

That tree MUST connect FIGURATIVELY and DIRECTLY to God Himself to AVOID Poly-theism.

I can't say it's anything less than the same connection when looking at the 'other' tree.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

It is also written in scripture that one shall NOT add or take away from God's word. If everyone is to believe that there is no real way of believing God's word because of translation errors, then does that not take away from the scripture in which we are encouraged to believe and of which tells us of the faith so many of us have? After all without that very word in which you now condemn too many of us would know NOTHING of God and His love.

My only comment on the above is that an exact Word for Word translation is not available. This is simple fact. This does not take away from the KJV being 'close enough' for horseshoes. It is NOT however 'word for word' LITERAL. Only the Hebrew text of the O.T. is the real deal, as is the Greek/Aramaic for the N.T.

But even in reading attempts at literal WORD FOR WORD from either will seem like nearly incomprehensible nonsense to english speakers. They are just NOT the same languages.

While this can and very well may be true that is all the more reason why we need FAITH. This too is why we should pray for understanding and that God will lead us in the right direction.

AGREED! See how easy that is?

I have contemplated Gods Words in my heart for a very long time, and I treasure same greatly. AND have had to 'change' my understandings on many fronts from where I began. I believe GOD MADE those changes IN me and that THE WORD works HIS OWN ACCORDS in all of us. The Word is after all LIVING and ACTIVE even in this present world and regardless of men's errors applied therein. Gods Words can NOT change from HIS OWN INTENTIONS with same. I can only observe what those intentions may be and IN HOPE to see MORE of HIM.

Dispensationalists call this progressive working. I call it progressive REVEALING.

The only question may be HOW MUCH OF GOD are we able to bear and to hear? I believe that is a great matter.

Then what was the purpose of Jesus dying if none of us have the free will to CHOOSE to love and serve God?

I defer to Divine Determinism in the matters above. I also admit that I do not know the fullness of what that is or consists of. I can only contemplate these things in my heart.

s

 

[theLords]

Yes, I did. Did you read the one and only article on Isaiah 14 that I presented that was written by Bratcher?
Bubba

No, I don't agree with your view that God created vile evil: Satan/Lucifer/the Devil/Abbadon/Apollyon/Belial etc. etc. Thus, I won't read the article because it comes from a POV with a shaky foundation. If Christ is not the foundation then I reject the knowledge. The lies along with the truth. Then I can start at the beginning fresh and anew with only truth. You and Smaller are the only two who hold this view about God creating evil. (Who have shown up in this thread, anyway)

I respect your beliefs, as you both feel God led you to them. Only the Holy Spirit can change the hearts of men, so that kind of makes debate utterly pointless for those who are not genuinely seeking truth. You both already have your truth. That's fine.

Enjoy, your conversation, gentlemen.

 

[Bubba]

No, I don't agree with your view that God created vile evil: Satan/Lucifer/the Devil/Abbadon/Apollyon/Belial etc. etc. Thus, I won't read the article because it comes from a POV with a shaky foundation. If Christ is not the foundation then I reject the knowledge. The lies along with the truth. Then I can start at the beginning fresh and anew with only truth. You and Smaller are the only two who hold this view about God creating evil. (Who have shown up in this thread, anyway)

I respect your beliefs, as you both feel God led you to them. Only the Holy Spirit can change the hearts of men, so that kind of makes debate utterly pointless for those who are not genuinely seeking truth. You both already have your truth. That's fine.

Enjoy, your conversation, gentlemen.

I do not know if Mr. Bratcher believes Satan was created evil, the main focus of his article is not about Satan origins, but of whom Isaiah is talking about. If you would have read the article, you would have understood the historic background of the time of Isaiah’s writing and how the word “Lucifer†got its beginning.
Bubba

 

[LostSoul]

You see a similar prophetic pronouncement upon pharaoh of Egypt in Ezekiel 31:8-9 using also the Biblical themes of Eden, is he also Satan? These Kings elevated themselves to the point where they thought they were God and without sin, and in the genre of literature used by Isaiah and Ezekiel they used hyperbolic language to address these kings and what would soon happen to them.
Bubba

More importantly who is God, or one of God's prophets comparing this king to? Whose great prideful sin resulted in being cast out of Heaven? This king was not in Heaven.

 

[Bazz1040]

In the orthodox Christian paradigm, Satan chose to rebel even though he was in an environment of perfection. If this is the case, what would keep us from believing that this situation could not happen again when believers go to glory?
Bubba

Satan rebelled because he allowed what God had given him to blind his thinking. But we will never rebel because unlike the angels we have partaken of the Divine Nature of God.

2 Peter 1:4 (ESV)
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

 

[sherri2]

Just show one scripture where Satan was HOLY or was once IN TRUTH and yer IN.

Jesus said he 'abode not' in Truth, not abode at some point past and then made a 'bad freewill decision.'

s

Really? I just pointed out the scripture AND the original hebrew that disproved that.

You ignored it.

I can only assume that that is deliberate.

 

[Bubba]

More importantly who is God, or one of God's prophets comparing this king to? Whose great prideful sin resulted in being cast out of Heaven? This king was not in Heaven.

"...in the genre of literature used by Isaiah and Ezekiel they used hyperbolic language to address these kings and what would soon happen to them."
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Satan rebelled because he allowed what God had given him to blind his thinking. But we will never rebel because unlike the angels we have partaken of the Divine Nature of God.

2 Peter 1:4 (ESV)
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

If indeed Satan was created perfect, would not that be in essence the divine nature? Were Adam and Eve partaking in the divine nature prior to the introducton of sin?
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

More importantly who is God, or one of God's prophets comparing this king to? Whose great prideful sin resulted in being cast out of Heaven? This king was not in Heaven.

If Mr. Bratcher is correct, "We learned that Babylonian religion was an astral religion, closely related to Canaanite practices, although more focused on the sun, moon, and stars and their motion than on the immediate cycles of nature as it was in Canaan. The Babylonians worshipped as gods the manifestations of celestial bodies. It is from Babylon that we get the signs of the Zodiac representing the constellations. We now know that the two terms used in the Hebrew text of Isaiah, Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, were Babylonian astral deities (which is reflected in most modern translations)," how might one translate Isaiah 14:12? Also, verses 13 and 14 says that the King stated "I will ascend to heaven", should not this be descend if Satan is in mind?
Bubba

 

[savedbygrace57]

bubba:

What gave Satan the thought to rebel against God?

God's Eternal Purpose for him !

 

[Bubba]

bubba:





God's Eternal Purpose for him !

Yes I agree. Bubba

 

[smaller]

Really? I just pointed out the scripture AND the original hebrew that disproved that.

You ignored it.

I can only assume that that is deliberate.

Uh, no, I do not accept the 'paraphrased' rendered versions. It says EVIL in the KJV. It is known as EVIL by Hebrew/Judaic translation.

Outreach Judaism - responds directly to the issues raised by missionaries and cults. Responds to Jews For Jesus

I also deliberated this matter for myself with a respresentative of Jews for Judaism some couple decades back and they say EVIL as well.

You perhaps bypassed the observation that Satan is never ONCE stated as HOLY or PREVIOUSLY HOLY in the text either?

The Devil, Satan was (past tense to ANY point) a murderer from the beginning, has NO TRUTH in him, and abode (past tense to any point) NOT IN THE TRUTH because THERE IS NO TRUTH in him. (John 8:44)

s

 

[LostSoul]

If Mr. Bratcher is correct, "We learned that Babylonian religion was an astral religion, closely related to Canaanite practices, although more focused on the sun, moon, and stars and their motion than on the immediate cycles of nature as it was in Canaan. The Babylonians worshipped as gods the manifestations of celestial bodies. It is from Babylon that we get the signs of the Zodiac representing the constellations. We now know that the two terms used in the Hebrew text of Isaiah, Helel, morning star, and Shahar, dawn, were Babylonian astral deities (which is reflected in most modern translations)," how might one translate Isaiah 14:12? Also, verses 13 and 14 says that the King stated "I will ascend to heaven", should not this be descend if Satan is in mind?
Bubba

The question is not if this man is correct, but what the Bible, GOD'S WORD says about this.

 

[Bubba]

The question is not if this man is correct, but what the Bible, GOD'S WORD says about this.

Yes, but does not God tell us to "come reason together" Isaiah 1:18? When interpreting Scripture we must use an inductive approach to Scripture; Who, What, Where, When, Why, How? When you understand what this King believed about himself (a personification of an astral deity, and without fault) and then read Isaiah 14:12-20, one may come to a different conclusion about Satan. Also, this person ends up in a grave not in honor like other Kings, but in dishonor.

Bubba

 

[LostSoul]

Yes, but does not God tell us to "come reason together" Isaiah 1:18? When interpreting Scripture we must use an inductive approach to Scripture; Who, What, Where, When, Why, How? When you understand what this King believed about himself (a personification of an astral deity, and without fault) and then read Isaiah 14:12-20, one may come to a different conclusion about Satan. Also, this person ends up in a grave not in honor like other Kings, but in dishonor.

Bubba

Bubba, clearly you and I are not going to agree. While I have no argument that this king was indeed very arrogant and prideful, our views when it comes to who and what Satan is are very different.

However, I am not going to argue with you or state that because you do not share my understanding of scripture that you are wrong for I trust that whatever the case might be that God will reveal His truths as necessary to whom or whomever has an incorrect understanding of scripture.

With that being said, I pray that you continue to enjoy this discussion.

Be Blessed...

 

[Bubba]

Bubba, clearly you and I are not going to agree. While I have no argument that this king was indeed very arrogant and prideful, our views when it comes to who and what Satan is are very different.

However, I am not going to argue with you or state that because you do not share my understanding of scripture that you are wrong for I trust that whatever the case might be that God will reveal His truths as necessary to whom or whomever has an incorrect understanding of scripture.

With that being said, I pray that you continue to enjoy this discussion.

Be Blessed...

That's cool; this is certainly not a salvation issue. For me, I have found that these forums are really not about who is right or wrong, but growing in understanding about Scripture as I learn why and what individuals believe.
Peace, Bubba

 

[Bazz1040]

If indeed Satan was created perfect, would not that be in essence the divine nature? Were Adam and Eve partaking in the divine nature prior to the introducton of sin?
Bubba

Sorry for the so long in replying.....I somehow mist your response. Lucifer, who name was changed to Satan was perfect but neither he nor the faithful angels have God's divine Nature in them, only those that are born of God through a new birth by the Holy Spirit has the divine Nature of God.

Human beings are a special creation that was eternally determined by God to share ruler ship with Him over all things. Therefore it is necessary for human beings to poses the same Nature as God does……mankind is now part of the divine trinity.

 

[Winters Eve]

You may be reading too much of your own presupposition to the Isaiah 14 passage, especially if you are using the name "Lucifer" from the text. I do not believe this passage is about Satan at all. I do not believe the redeemed can actually sin in the next realm; I am just presenting the argument that there is a good possibility that Satan was created evil from the very beginning.
Bubba

Maybe a hidden political agenda created both God and Satan and lets not forget Satan has kept God and the church in Business and has done for centreys the same can be said the other way around thats just another angle on it.
However from the norm point of view I would say yes that God did in fact create his adversary for self ambition meaning he wanted man to worship him.
This makes the passage from scripure "I CREATED EVIL" make alot of sense. Its makes a whole host of other things about God make alot of sense to. Not saying thats how it is just my thoughts on it.