What happens at the point of salvation?

[AVBunyan]

Much talk here has centered around whether or not one can lose their salvation.

How about discussing what happens at the point of salvation and then maybe the discussings surrounding losing salvation will fade away.

Ok folks, what happens at the point one is saved?

You never know - someone my actually get excited at what God did instead of what they think man did.

I will purposefully hold off and see what you folks have to say - not here to hammer you for what you say or don't.

Here is you chance folks - just put down from scripture what you believe God did. I don't mean what you did - christianity is full of this stuff -

What did God do?

Just present your thoughts and list it out - real simple.

I trust this excercise will be a blessing - not a debate

God bless 8-)

 

[ChristineES]

When I first read the four Gospels all in one day in one sitting, I was incredibly excited! I accepted Jesus right then and there. That excitement never quite died away but has stayed with me in some degree for the past 24 years. Some days it is stronger than others. Even when in times of trouble, I still have in my head that feeling in a small degree and it keeps me going. In times of good fortune and happiness the feeling is very strong.
I don't know if excitement is the true word I want to use, but the feeling does not have a name.
I don't think I would ever want to be without it! It would be like starving to death if I did not have it.
That is why I can't imagine someone walking away from God, since I am sure all Christians get that feeling as well! They may do it, but I never can imagine why.

 

[stovebolts]

ChristineES,

Mark 4:3-9 Listen; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the wayside, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And others fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some a hundred. And he said unto them, He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

AV,
Here's a good sumation on what God did.
Speaking about Christ,
(Net Bible) Hebrews 2:10-18 For it was fitting for him, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For indeed he who makes holy and those being made holy all have the same origin, and so he is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will praise you.†Again he says, “I will be confident in him,†and again, “Here I am, with the children God has given me.†Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

 

[Free]

AV,

Your question assumes that there is a "point of salvation". Perhaps you should show that salvation is something that happens at a "point", as opposed to a continual process or something else. Is there evidence of this "point"?

 

[Atonement]

Ok folks, what happens at the point one is saved?

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

AV,

Your question assumes that there is a "point of salvation". Perhaps you should show that salvation is something that happens at a "point", as opposed to a continual process or something else. Is there evidence of this "point"?

The process ~ the word is planted in the heart and mind. The Holy Spirit is drawing someone to God. A believer is praying for the lost person. The blindness is being removed from the heart of the lost person. The lost person is beginning to feel conviction because of his sin. He is thinking about eternity. Heaven. Hell. He begins to seek the truth. He is reading the word. He is talking to Christians. He is listening to gospel music. It is making sense. He prays and asks Jesus if He is real, to prove it to him.


Point~ new birth

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

aka ~ conversion
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


and in response to AVBunyan's question:
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[JM]

What sin is it that causes someone to be "unborn again?" What sin separates us from the love of God?

 

[unred typo]

the long of it.......

Here is you chance folks - just put down from scripture what you believe God did. I don't mean what you did - christianity is full of this stuff -
What did God do?

Just present your thoughts and list it out - real simple.

I trust this excercise will be a blessing - not a debate

The same message can be a blessing to one and a “savor of death†to another. I actually have a long version and a short version. My first list will be long for two reasons. First, because I am constantly misunderstood unless I say everything in expanded and monotonously excessive detail. Second, if I just list my thoughts, I am accused of being unscriptural, so the bulk of it will be scripture.

I don’t know how we can determine what God does when a person is born again. It’s quite mysterious but we can list what we know.
John 3:8 says that “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.â€Â

And John 1:12-13 rather cancels the idea that we can make a decision to be born again: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one that does righteousness is born of him.

That said, what does God do toward our salvation?

The most important thing he did was give his only begotten son as a sacrifice for our sin. His blood is the gift of grace which no man can buy, earn or add to. It is without cost and priceless.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Then, he binds all unto disobedience, declaring that all have sinned, so that he may have mercy upon all . No one, no not one, will be able to boast that they saved themselves. No one can claim they didn’t hear since he writes his laws on all hearts and he has sent out his Holy Spirit to interpret those laws to all . Then he commands all to repent:

Acts 17:29-31
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Another thing he does is he spreads the word like seed thrown on a field, so that even hardened hearts receive some and those off the beaten path. He sows seeds of the word throughout your life. Sometimes they take root and produce fruit and sometimes they don’t.

From the foundation of the world he has chosen that those that fear him he will save.
Psalm 33:18-19 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; To deliver their soul from death…


Since he has chosen to save those who fear him, he makes a distinction between those in this chosen group (those that fear him) and those he rebukes (those who don‘t):

Psalm 50:16-21 But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to declare My statutes,
Or take My covenant in your mouth,
17 Seeing you hate instruction
And cast My words behind you?
18 When you saw a thief, you consented with him,
And have been a partaker with adulterers.
19 You give your mouth to evil,
And your tongue frames deceit.
20 You sit and speak against your brother;
You slander your own mother’s son.
21 These things you have done, and I kept silent;
You thought that I was altogether like you;
But I will rebuke you,
And set them in order before your eyes.

As you can see, the wicked take his covenant in their mouths but they continue to sin.
He sets aside those who fear him for he has only chosen those who fear him.
In mercy, he shows his salvation to those that walk in his ways and rebukes those who don‘t:

Psalm 50:22-23
“Now consider this, you who forget God, Lest I tear you in pieces,
And there be none to deliver: Whoever offers praise glorifies Me;
And to him who orders his conduct aright
I will show the salvation of God.â€Â

He also makes a vow to any and all who believe in him in sincerity and truth:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Unfortunately, not all will follow the way of salvation that God has prepared for them.
He is not a respecter of persons, and since he loves all, he rebukes both the sinner who is far off and the one who has believed but not continued to follow his teaching:

Romans 2:4
Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Then he freely and without charge, forgives and cleanses those who truly repent and washes them in the precious blood of his son:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Our Savior pleads our case before God the Father:
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

The word sown may bring conviction and repentance, and then, cleansing, but his work doesn’t end there. He anoints us with the Holy Spirit who continues to teach us what it means to love one another and God.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, you shall abide in him.

Next, he gets out his pruners and his axe.

John 15:3-5 3Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
5I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.



Finally, He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and with fire to burn up the chaff:
Matthew 3:10-12
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Sorry to hurry you into judgment like that but this was getting too long for even me to read. : For those of you who actually made it down this far, see AV for a lollipop. He has a pocketful.

:-D

 

[TanNinety]

Ok folks, what happens at the point one is saved?

Mark 13:12 "Brother will betray brother to death, fathers will betray their own children, and children will rise against their parents and cause them to be killed. 13 And everyone will hate you because of your allegiance to me. But those who endure to the end will be saved.

The point of being saved according to Yeshua is "to the end to those who endure". So my best bet would be that at the point of being saved at the end one will get to enter the kingdom of God.

Unless one believes contrary to what Yeshua said and concludes that "you are saved and hence you will endure to the end". They are two different statements. Yeshua's version leads through the narrow gate into the kingdom of God. And the "saved first ..endure later" will likely lead through the broad gate.

 

[unred typo]

the short of it...

How about discussing what happens at the point of salvation and then maybe the discussings surrounding losing salvation will fade away.
Ok folks, what happens at the point one is saved?

This is my short version:
Matthew 25
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

:fadein:

 

[AVBunyan]

I guess since I started this I should answer my own question.
My final question in my OP was: “What did God do?â€Â

Undred said:
“I don’t know how we can determine what God does when a person is born again.â€Â

I believe the scriptures have a lot to say about what God did. What God did is primarily found in Paul’s epistles. So what did God do to the sinner at salvation?
God….

1. Justified him – Gal. 2:16; Rom. 5:1; 8:30
2. Forgave him – Eph. 1:7
3. Redeemed him – Col. 1:14
4. Regenerated him – Tit. 3:5
5. Adopted him – Rom. 4
6. Sealed him – Eph. 1:13
7. Put him in Christ – I Cor.12, Col. 1, 2
8. Raised him up – Eph. 2:6
9. Seated him in heavenly places – Eph. 2:6
10. Sanctified him – I Cor. 10:30
11. Glorified him – Rom. 8:30
12. Made him a new creature – II Cor. 5:17
13. Spiritually circumcised him – Col. 2:9-12
14. Made him holy – I Cor. 7:14
15. Gave him an inheritance – Eph. 1
16. Made him complete in Christ – Col. 2:10
17. Indwelled him with the Spirit – Ephesians Colossians
18. Enlightened him – Eph. 1
19. Quickened him – Eph. 2:1
20. Gave him the faith of Jesus to live by – Gal, 2:20
21. Delivered him from the power of darkness – Col. 1:13
22. Translated him into the kingdom of his dear Son – Col. 1:13
23. Buried him – Col. 2:12
24. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against him - Col. 2:14
25. Made him righteous – I Cor, 1:30
26. Made him a friend who once was an enemy – Rom. 5
27. Given him access to himself – Eph. 2:18
28. Given him the atonement – Rom. 5:11
29. Reconciled him – Rom. 5:10
30. Gave him the faith of Christ – Eph. 2:8, 9
31. Planted him in the likeness of his death – Rom. 6:5
32. Crucified his old man – Rom. 6:6
….And some more

The above took me less than 15 minutes – I was looking for a simple list (see OP).
Why could not some of you do the above? I still believe most cannot because:
1. They have not been taught sound doctrine
2. They do not spend time in Paul’s epistles – they spend all their time in the Gospels and the OT
3. They are not regenerated

And after all that God did some of you are still going to hang on to your obedience to prove you can keep your salvation. You had better distinguish the difference between doctrine and duty – standing and state – What many of you are doing is bypassing what God did (doctrine) and making the duty the basis for your justification.

God bless

 

[TanNinety]

And after all that God did some of you are still going to hang on to your obedience to prove you can keep your salvation.

I have asked this question several times yet to get a straight answer. May be you can try answering this.

A homosexual, made the confession of faith. God did whatever you have posted in your proof texts that He would do. Now this homosexual lived an actively homosexual life and died. Is he still saved? If not, why do you condemn his salvation?

 

[AVBunyan]

I have asked this question several times yet to get a straight answer. May be you can try answering this.

A homosexual, made the confession of faith. God did whatever you have posted in your proof texts that He would do. Now this homosexual lived an actively homosexual life and died. Is he still saved? If not, why do you condemn his salvation?

Real simple based upon what you said..."God did whatever you have posted in your proof texts that He would do" - if this really took place as you gave it in this scenario...then... he died a saved man - disobedient, miserable but saved.

 

[TanNinety]

Thanks AV. I appreciate that you are at least consistent in what you believe. I have seen the same people who taught "faith alone saves" turn right around and have condemned homosexuals for "not walking the walk of obedience" and hence deny salvation to them though they have faith. That sounds kind of hypocritical to me to single out other's sin and not dealing with our own. But anyway, we can get back on topic now.

 

[unred typo]

The above took me less than 15 minutes – I was looking for a simple list…

Well, I have to say that’s impressive. That’s reading more than 2 references a minute. plus typing and, oh yeah, thinking. Or did you mean it took you that long to cut and paste them from wherever you had them stored? At any rate, you’re too fast for me. You just take a nap until I catch up. It takes me a while to think these things through, being that my brain was damaged from all those years or reformed/ semi reformed and calvinist propaganda. I have to work through these things carefully so as not to become entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:19
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

 

[AVBunyan]

Well, I have to say that’s impressive. That’s reading more than 2 references a minute. plus typing and, oh yeah, thinking. [/u]

Ok - maybe 20 minutes?....Who said I had to read them or look them up? I just wrote the list and then added the references and looked up the ones I couldn't quite remember the exact reference or place found

It comes from knowing Paul and...

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

 

[unred typo]

Undred said:
“I don’t know how we can determine what God does when a person is born again.â€Â

You rather took my statement in the worst possible light. I meant to express what Jesus said that we cannot know when a person is born again or how it happens because it is like the wind that blows, you can only know by what you see happening; the persons actions. We can’t know at what point a person is born again or if a person must be born again to have any of the promises you list. Some of the things you list are available to every person alive. You didn’t want to look at what man must do to be saved, only God’s work in salvation, so you took away the evidence of being born again. Your 20 minute list is a mixed bag, much of it redundant. Paul was a creative writer and used many different expressions to articulate the same concept.
For instance, these are all basically the same thing, said in different ways:


“3. Redeemed him – Colossians 1:14 29. Reconciled him – Romans 5:10 21. Delivered him from the power of darkness – Colossians1:13 27. Given him access to himself – Ephesians 2:18 18. Enlightened him – Ephesians 1 20. Gave him the faith of Jesus to live by – Galatians 2:20 24. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against him - Colossians 2:14â€Â

These are things he has done for all mankind through his work on the cross. BTW, AV, you left out that he wrote his laws on our hearts. Some of these things happened differently to people living at the time, that we will never experience. They were born before the cross, aliens to God, and when Jesus came and died, they were given direct access to him, even though they were unrepentant sinners. Jesus calls the sinners, all men everywhere, to repentance. The Holy Spirit is here to convict all men everywhere of sin and righteousness, not just the righteous. A righteous man always has had direct access to God when he came in faith, sincerity and truth. By the new covenant, which demanded even holiness in the heart, Jesus was making all men sinners, so he could have mercy upon all.

When a person truly repents, he is placed in Christ, who:
1. Justified him – Galatians 2:16 ; Romans 5:1 ; Romans 8:30 2. Forgave him – Ephesians 1:7 24. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against him - Colossians2:14 25. Made him righteous – I Corinthians 1:30 26. Made him a friend who once was an enemy – Romans 5 28. Given him the atonement – Romans 5:11 14. Made him holy – I Corinthians 7:14
AND:
6. Sealed him – Ephesians 1:13 10. Sanctified him – I Corinthians 10:30 13. Spiritually circumcised him – Colossians 2:9-12 22. Translated him into the kingdom of his dear Son – Colossians 1:13
HAVING Before:
23. Buried him – Colossians 2:12 32. Crucified his old man – Romans 6:6 31. Planted him in the likeness of his death – Romans 6:5
AND then:
19. Quickened him – Ephesians 2:1 4. Regenerated him – Titus 3:5 8. Raised him up – Ephesians 2:6

God justifies the repentant sinner of his sins up to the point of his confession, not for the rest of his life. If the justified sinner refuses to forgive others as he was forgiven, for instance, his justification is lost. It is much more serious when a born again person loses their justification. Paul said it would be impossible to renew them to repentance, having tasted of the Lord, and then spurred him, but with God all things are possible. Those who continue in this new man by walking in obedience to Christ will find that Jesus has:

25. 17. Indwelled him with the Spirit – Ephesians Colossians 5. Adopted him – Romans 4
7. Put him in Christ – I Corinthians 12 , Colossians 1 , 2 12. Made him a new creature – II Corinthians 5:17 9. Seated him in heavenly places – Ephesians 2:6 11. Glorified him – Romans 8:30 15. Gave him an inheritance – Ephesians 1 16. Made him complete in Christ – Colossians 2:10

I don’t know at what point a person is born again. God only knows and the person who has the witness of the Spirit within. I know it does not occur until the person is completely committed and surrendered to Christ. This left one that is a misstatement of what the verse is saying and would take too long to explain here in this topic: “30. Gave him the faith of Christ – Ephesians 2:8-9†You get faith in Christ when you take the time to study the word and see he is all that God said about him. When you take him at his word and find him faithful.

Correct me if some of these are in the wrong categories. Some have more than one meaning or express more than one aspect of salvation. Some I haven’t thought through the implications of or they are removed from the context, which is confusing. IOW, it’s a work in progress, much like myself. If it is too big a mess, I’ll work on a revised list during my rest unto the Lord on Saturday. Today is going to be too busy.
Thank you, AV, for this opportunity to clarify these important things.

Romans 8:12-14 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. You rather took my statement in the worst possible light.

2. God justifies the repentant sinner of his sins up to the point of his confession, not for the rest of his life.

1. You did say "what" not "when" so I responded - if I misrepresented then sorry about that.

2. Question - I Cor 15:1-5 says Christ died for your sins. Do you believe that or not? If you still think you can lose it because of your present or future unconfessed or unrepentant sins then you do not believe Christ died for your sins and you are still in your sins and lost. The verse does not say he died for just your past sins - Christ died for my sins past, present and the ones I will most likely commit later on. Either his blood was sufficient or it isn't - which is it? God doesn't need your repentance and confessions - Christ blood is sufficient..

 

[unred typo]

1. You did say "what" not "when" so I responded - if I misrepresented then sorry about that.

2. Question - I Cor 15:1-5 says Christ died for your sins. Do you believe that or not? If you still think you can lose it because of your present or future unconfessed or unrepentant sins then you do not believe Christ died for your sins and you are still in your sins and lost. The verse does not say he died for just your past sins - Christ died for my sins past, present and the ones I will most likely commit later on. Either his blood was sufficient or it isn't - which is it? God doesn't need your repentance and confessions - Christ blood is sufficient..

No harm, no foul. Apology accepted. It’s easy to do, both intentionally and unintentionally.

In answer to your question, YES. Christ died for my sins and the sins of the entire world, not leaving a soul out, no, not one. His blood is sufficient for all my sins and the sins of the entire world. Let me make myself clearer.

If I buy you a million boxes of Tide, is it sufficient to do your entire load of laundry? Is it sufficient to do the laundry for your entire life? Was it free to you if I bought them all myself? Now because it was free and sufficient for your use, does that mean that I have to stay and do your laundry for you?

You have all you need to keep your spiritual garments clean, you have the Holy Spirit to help you, and since Jesus paid the cost, you have no excuse.

Now don’t try to tell me you’re dead and unable to do anything, because Biblically, that simply isn’t true and it has nothing to do with my illustration. The blood can be free to you, sufficient for whatever sin you commit throughout your life, and still leave you with dirty underwear. Do you see it yet?
:roll:
Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[mutzrein]

Ok folks, what happens at the point one is saved?
God bless 8-)

What happens? One is born of the Spirit. One passes from death to life. That's what happens.