What happens at the point of salvation?

[mutzrein]

What sin is it that causes someone to be "unborn again?" What sin separates us from the love of God?

You are right JM - it is not possible to become 'unborn.' BUT it is possible, after starting with the Spirit, to try to achieve our goal by human effort. :-?

 

[unred typo]

You are right JM - it is not possible to become 'unborn.' BUT it is possible, after starting with the Spirit, to try to achieve our goal by human effort. :-?

I think that is the reason that God doesn’t rush to give someone who is a marginally committed believer the new birth. It takes 9 months from conception to birth in the physical process, why wouldn’t the spiritual be a similar experience?

Human effort, meaning as in the quote you paraphrased from Galatians in another thread? I probably will have to explain this a hundred more times, but Galatians is dealing with external, ceremonial works of the flesh, particularly circumcision. It is not talking about walking out the reality of our beliefs in Christ and his message which was love and good works of faith and obedience to the leading of the Spirit. Our human efforts to walk in love and repentance as the Spirit leads is how we continue in the Spirit. We are called to love and good works. We are admonished away from works of the flesh, where we indulge our sinful desires at the expense of others. Try to be more discerning when you read, mutzrein. There are more than one type of ‘works’ and sometimes the same expressions are used interchangeably to describe them. Translators are only human, and these are works of the flesh, you know. :wink:

Now as to becoming 'unborn', I believe we can become stillborn and have to start over with a fresh anointing and sealing of the Spirit, but I can't prove that scripturally....yet.
:fadein:

 

[mutzrein]

I think that is the reason that God doesn’t rush to give someone who is a marginally committed believer the new birth. It takes 9 months from conception to birth in the physical process, why wouldn’t the spiritual be a similar experience?

Human effort, meaning as in the quote you paraphrased from Galatians in another thread? I probably will have to explain this a hundred more times, but Galatians is dealing with external, ceremonial works of the flesh, particularly circumcision. It is not talking about walking out the reality of our beliefs in Christ and his message which was love and good works of faith and obedience to the leading of the Spirit. Our human efforts to walk in love and repentance as the Spirit leads is how we continue in the Spirit. We are called to love and good works. We are admonished away from works of the flesh, where we indulge our sinful desires at the expense of others. Try to be more discerning when you read, mutzrein. There are more than one type of ‘works’ and sometimes the same expressions are used interchangeably to describe them. Translators are only human, and these are works of the flesh, you know. :wink:

Now as to becoming 'unborn', I believe we can become stillborn and have to start over with a fresh anointing and sealing of the Spirit, but I can't prove that scripturally....yet.
:fadein:

I agree with part of your reasoning unred. I liken the 9 month gestation as the time from which the seed was sown to the time at which that seed brought forth the fruit of new birth.

And I don’t think we are that far apart regarding Galatians. I am also NOT TALKING about the things we do which are the result of walking in the Spirit. These are plainly evidences of our faith.

Rather, what I am talking about are those, who after being born of the spirit are doing ‘good works’ not because these works result from the fruit of the spirit, but rather because they are hoodwinked by the religious who believe that a person is made righteous BY what they do.

And I have witnessed this many times. Folks who are genuinely born again, who find themselves in a church and who are then discipled by those who do not walk by faith.

To me those whose ‘works’ are by faith are the sheep. The goats are the latter who do the same works - not by faith – but because they believe they are made righteous by them.

Stillborn – no. Born again and then becoming self righteous – yes.

 

[unred typo]

Rather, what I am talking about are those, who after being born of the spirit are doing ‘good works’ not because these works result from the fruit of the spirit, but rather because they are hoodwinked by the religious who believe that a person is made righteous BY what they do.

And I have witnessed this many times. Folks who are genuinely born again, who find themselves in a church and who are then discipled by those who do not walk by faith.

To me those whose ‘works’ are by faith are the sheep. The goats are the latter who do the same works - not by faith – but because they believe they are made righteous by them.

Stillborn – no. Born again and then becoming self righteous – yes.

I love ya, man, but this is where I have to disagree. Please try not to jump to conclusions before you understand what I’m saying.

How do we reconcile the verses that say salvation is by faith, not of works and those that say we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling? It’s not hard to do if you don’t miss the obvious because of man made doctrines that were introduced to the church and murkied up the water of the word.

First, it is the blood of Christ that makes us righteous by covering those sins that keep us from perfection. The one who only has sins of the heart who would never dream of breaking the 10 commandments but dream of adultery with his neighbor’s wife, for instance, is just as needful of the blood as the man sleeping with several neighbor‘s wives. Neither would make it to heaven without the free gift of the blood to wash away his sins, both small and gross ones. So it is by faith in the blood that we are saved, regardless of the degree of our sin. All we are required to do is repent and the blood is sufficient to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I know we agree to this point. That covers the ‘not of works’ aspect of our salvation. Righteousness comes by faith in his blood.

The works that we must do to be saved are the works that Jesus commanded of us and our failures (in that we don’t do them perfectly) are covered by the blood. We don’t have to remember each sin, because if our heart in in the right attitude, (if we walk in the light as he is in the light,) the blood will be working to erase those sins we inadvertently commit because we’re just dumb sheep. The sins that we do because we’re just greedy sheep lead away by our own lusts, must be repented of and then we can return to the fold. Meanwhile, we must continue to listen to his voice and follow him, which means to do what he commands (love one another, forgive, give to those in need, etc.). Doing what he commands, following the voice of God in our hearts, is nothing less than works of faith. These are what we will be judged by. These good deeds are what will determine where we spend eternity, as the parable of the sheep and goats reveals.

So you see, on one hand we have sins that must be covered by the blood, so we can be saved, and on the other, we have deeds of kindness that must be done, so we can be saved. Obeying Christ = works of faith and love, Sin = not obeying Christ and not walking in love. If we have faith in Christ that he is the Son of God we will obey him. If we have faith in the blood to cover our sin, we will confess them. Without holiness no man will see the Lord.

Who are the goats? Those who do not repent of their sins but continue in them, and who do not follow Christ who leads us to love and good works. In the parable, they did no deeds of love and kindness, but outwardly played church while committing iniquity in their hearts and lives.

.

 

[destiny]

I agree with part of your reasoning unred. I liken the 9 month gestation as the time from which the seed was sown to the time at which that seed brought forth the fruit of new birth.

And I don’t think we are that far apart regarding Galatians. I am also NOT TALKING about the things we do which are the result of walking in the Spirit. These are plainly evidences of our faith.

Rather, what I am talking about are those, who after being born of the spirit are doing ‘good works’ not because these works result from the fruit of the spirit, but rather because they are hoodwinked by the religious who believe that a person is made righteous BY what they do.

And I have witnessed this many times. Folks who are genuinely born again, who find themselves in a church and who are then discipled by those who do not walk by faith.

To me those whose ‘works’ are by faith are the sheep. The goats are the latter who do the same works - not by faith – but because they believe they are made righteous by them.

Stillborn – no. Born again and then becoming self righteous – yes.

I agree with you, mutz. I would also add that the goats try to compensate through works for what they lack at a relationship level.
But having 'NO' relationship is what constitutes their 'goathood'.
I think works is a natural facet that comes from relationship with God. There is a vast difference in spirit led appointments, and man striving to make some sort of religious quota.
And yes, there are also misguided christians, who, through misguided leaders, strive to make those quota's also.
Gods yoke is easy ...the works of man are burdensome.

 

[Lewis]

Well I was completly energizied' people even said I had a glow about me' they also could tell that something good was going on with me. But after a while that dies down. And because I was very much into feelings' I thought that I should feel that way for the rest of my life. And many think the same way that I was thinking. But now I know that some days you will wake up not feeling so Christian like. But you have to know that you are and pray on it. Some days are better than others. But many people have fell' because of that feeling that' they had when they first got saved died down. I did and more than once.

 

[jgredline]

What happens at the point of salvation?

When one becomes justified, a few things take place at that moment.
in no particular order and I am adding on to the List AV put up which I agree with. I also read all the post and there were somethings that were not touched on, that I feel need to be said....

When one is born again he is justified and sealed unto God and even though we will go through peaks and valleys out salvation as is secure as if we died the moment we were justified.

We also recieve our spirtual gift or gifts as the spirit chooses.. More on this later...

The Spirit gives us understanding of thisngs that are like riddles to non believers....

1 cor chapter 2
brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

So in a very simple sense, if you are justified, you are now speaking with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and not of Man. The Holy Spirit will never preach anything that is not inline with the scriptures...

Spiritual Wisdom

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Here is where the Rubber starts to meet the road. I could spend alot of time here, but will keep it simple. The Bible is all about Jesus....The Holy Spirit is calling all to himself, The Holy Spirit will make clear such things that are a mystery and place a peace in ones heart about some things, like the trinity.


9 But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

In reading these scriptures, it is easy to see how heavy Pauls heart was in writing this.... There are some on the forum whom this speaks of....

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

One of the the things that is revealed when one is Justified is that Jesus is God. If one does not accept Jesus is GOD , he does not have the Spirit of God, who himself is God...If the Holy Spirit is not God as some here believe how can he search the deep things of God? When one is born again he knows that his saviour is God....


13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


The natural man will accept doctrine that is against what the Scriptures teach. Such things like UR or its cool to be a homosexual pastor etc. The natural man will not recieve Jesus as God. The natural man will simply not understand the scriptures and then try and twist them to fit their false idealogies.....

 

[Lewis]

Let me add this. When I I accepted Christ I felt great' like nothing that I ever knew. But I knew nothing, I did not know how to pray or how to search the Scriptures' I knew nothing.

 

[jgredline]

Lewis
Yes, that is the case with many, but let me ask you this? When and how did you come to realize that your Saviour was God?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I have mentioned before that I have known the Lord, even as a toddler.
Growing up the way that I did, I literally had it beaten out of me a time or two. The beatings have left me with dissociative disorders, and I did not even know if there was a God. God has picked me up and restored me time and time again. Somehow, I always find my way back to the cross! Born again, again, again and again? I don't believe that.

I may have forgotten Him, however, He has never forgotten me. Hallelujah!

He has used everything for His glory. And in spite of the best (or worst) efforts of those who do not want me to be a Christian, I am. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Nothing can separate me from the love of God.

 

[Lewis]

To be honest around 81 or 82 the Lord was calling me but I resisted and then years later the Lord used my son's mother to lead me to Him. And I knew that it was time and just like that. I excepted in that little church in Philadelphia. And I told everybody that I knew' about Jesus. And that was in the summer of 90 or 91. I think 91. Let me say this' when the Lord was calling me in the early 80's I knew it was Him' I just did not know what to do about it because I was a very confused intravenous speed addict. Or should I say I did not know how to come to Him. But I would practise singing Gospel all the time.