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What happens to the Wicked in the End?

Hobie

Member
What happens to the Wicked in the End, do they live with Satan in a underworld with a river stix flowing through it, are they purified and sent up to heaven once the Devil has cleaned them up, or do they perish? Seems like a simple question but Greek myths have become blended in and confused many on this issue, so lets see what the bible says.

The Devil from the begining has tried to present God as a liar, who does not tell man the truth about sin, which Satan is the father of. Let start with Gen 2:15-17:
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Who was telling the truth, God, or the serpent (Satan)?

Deut 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So are those people who are “dead†or do not have life as in those in the grave and those without Christ (or those who do not have eternal life) will no longer exist.

Well the answer is simple, in the end, both will end up in the same place. Those without Christ are simply the walking dead. If they will not choose Christ in this life, they will die the second death, which is final. Those of course who have never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, will be judged according their response to the Holy Spirit of God, by way of conviction of sin, and their response to the same.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

How could God who says that He is love, could burn countless billions of people in hell for all eternity, this is not the deciding factor of my conviction. You are simply wrong about there being no evidence for what I believe in the bible. To the contrary, there is far greater scriptural evidence, than for those who believe in eternal torment.

per•ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per•ished, per•ish•ing, per•ish•es.--intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate.--tr. To bring to destruction; destroy.--idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.
Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished. It is one thing to disagree with a doctrine that scripture teaches, it is another to take up false doctirnes that elevate Satan to the one in charge and leave the wicked to continue forever with him or maybe be 'purified' by him as some believe then go to heaven.

The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Revelation 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God; their eternal state is one of eternal "death" (i.e. separation from God) in sins John 8:21,24.

That the second death is annihilation is shown by the many verses describing what will be eternal in the sense of never to be ressurected or a final death, as God will carry out the wages of sin

Lets read Rev. 20. Only the saved are alive during the thousand years, and the wicked are not cast into the lake of fire until the thousand years is over. So the saints are taken up in the second coming, and the rest who are wicked, that is the unsaved do not live again until the end of the thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age.( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time.), perpetual,
eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life____ II. long space of time, an age,
perpetual, all ones life long, for ever,_____ eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,
epoch,____this present world.

Considering the above, context is very important. Since the word, or words translated in English as forever, do not always mean the same, it is important to know what the rest of scripture says in relation to any given topic the word is used in, and the context of what is being talked about in relation to the words. Since scripture clearly states that the wicked will come to an end in many places, I can see no good reason to apply eternity to them regarding the use of words, which do not always mean the same. This is only to make the word of God contradict itself. If what we believe makes the word of God contradict itself, then the problem is definitely with what we believe, not the word of God.
 
I agree with you 100%. A living man is a soul and a soul can die (Genesis 2:7 and Ezekiel 18:20)

Forever for a man is different form forever for God. God Alone is immortal, man is mortal: capable of perishing.
 
change said:
I agree with you 100%. A living man is a soul and a soul can die (Genesis 2:7 and Ezekiel 18:20)

Forever for a man is different form forever for God. God Alone is immortal, man is mortal: capable of perishing.

Still, its a hard thing to understand, and from the begining Satan was trying to tell man he had immortality, but that is not true, that is the lie that Satan gave at the Garden of Eden.

Lets go into the scriptures:

1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.

I Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

God has given us eternal life through his Son. This is not something we posses in and of ourselves, but only as we believe in the Son of God. The Lord Jesus Christ, who became one of us, is also verily God and therefore immortal. If we attach ourselves to him, then we to have immortality. This is not however, on account of anything in us, but only because we have accepted the death of the Lord Jesus Christ in our own lives, that the life of the Son might also be in us. Thus the believer inherits eternal life on account of the Son.( Rom. 6:5-11 )

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Lets look at perish again:

per·ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per·ished, per·ish·ing, per·ish·es.--intr. 1. To die or be
destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate.--tr. To bring to destruction; destroy.--idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

The contrast made in the above verses cannot be mistaken. Those who believe in the Son of man will not perish, but will have eternal life. To perish, is to die, to be destroyed, to pass from existence. This truth is repeated two times in a row by the Son of God. The opposite of eternal life, is death, which is non existence. To perish, and to live on through eternity burning in hell, are two very different things. If you have life, then you are alive. It doesn't matter where you are, or what is happening to you, life is life. Non existence is not life. These two things are opposites, and the Lord Jesus Christ uses them to show the difference between believers, and non believers. Non believers will not have life in any form.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The apostle Paul points out clearly when the saved will receive immortality. It is at the resurrection, that is the second coming of Christ, that the saved will receive immortality. Those who must receive immortality, obviously do not posses it in and of themselves. It is at Christ's appearing that death is swallowed up in victory, not before. True enough, eternal life is secure now, for all the saved, but eternal life will not begin until the appointed time.
Death is swallowed up in victory, when the dead are raised and changed from mortal to immortal at the second coming. If in fact, those who die in Christ go right to heaven to be with Christ for eternity, the above verses would make no sense at all. In fact, the bible would be filled with verses that make no sense at all. A biblical doctrine must be based upon the scriptures as a whole, not just a few verses here and there. While there are a few verses in the bible, that seem to suggest the possibility of the immortality of the soul, the scriptural evidence to the contrary is overwhelming.
1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here again, the apostle Paul makes it clear, that if their is no resurrection, then all who have fallen asleep,(or died) in Christ are perished. Verse twenty two points out that as all have died in Adam, so will all be made alive in Christ. Verse twenty three points out when all will be made alive, at Christ's coming. The last enemy to be destroyed is death, which is destroyed at the second coming. Again, if the dead in Christ are already alive and in heaven with him, then the above verses not only make no sense, but are a lie. Either the scriptures which we have been discussing are a lie, or the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a lie.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Verse twenty three brings out the contrast again, which cannot be mistaken. The wages of sin is death, which is non existence, not eternal life in hell. On the contrary, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Is God a cheap giver? Would he try to pass off on us something that we already have as a gift that we should appreciate so very much? Of course not. God is not a liar, and his word is the truth. Eternal life is a gift from God to the saved, not something that every individual already has in and of themselves. This is exactly the issue at hand, will we die from the sin of Adam and Eve in the garden or not? Pay attention to the following verses.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

This is the issue at hand. Is God a liar, or is Satan a liar? What do you think? The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is nothing more than the perpetuation of the first lie which Satan told to the human race. It is an affront to God, and an issue which God himself will address personally at his second coming, and again at the second resurrection. Make no mistake about it, the soul is not immortal. Those who refuse the gift of God in and through his Son, will not have life.
Those who accept this lie as the truth are calling God a liar, as the Devil did, and does continually, for he is the father of lies. To accept this doctrine as truth, is to undermine the authority of God, and separate oneself from him alone who hath immortality. I do not speak of those who believe it in ignorance, but those who refuse the truth of scripture in favor of that which they prefer to believe. Ignorance however, will be no excuse for those who have opportunity to know the truth, but do not care enough to find out about it.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God alone has immortality. The original sin of Satan was that he wanted to be God, in His place. He may claim immortality for himself, and wish to perpetuate this lie through any means possible, but it will be to no avail. He will come to a complete end. As will all who follow his example. Anyone who claims that they have an immortal soul is defying God, just as Satan himself did, and does to this day. Are you God? If you say that your soul is immortal, then you are saying that you are God, since God alone hath immortality. What more can an individual do, to separate themselves from God? Notice the following.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan is the father of this mind set. He is the original one who wanted to be like God, without being in submission to God. He wanted to be God. Therefore he loves and perpetuates the lie of the immortality of the soul. If in fact, he is immortal, then he is in fact God. All those who believe this mind set are following in his footsteps. Unlike God, Satan does not care how he gets followers, as long as he gets them. If he can trick people into following him by getting them to believe a lie, that’s fine. If he can get people to think that they are worshipping God, when they are really worshipping him, that’s great. Don't follow Satan unwillingly, by believing his lies.

Now lets take a look at the following scriptures which are a dual prophecy concerning the King of Tyrus and Satan. It is obvious from their content, that they refer to the devil himself, his fall from heaven, and his ultimate end.

Ezek 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Satan himself will be no more. So will be the fate of all who refuse the gift which God is offering them through his son. Do not allow Satan to separate you from Christ, through whom you have eternal life, by believing this false doctrine.
 
Hobie said:
Still, its a hard thing to understand, and from the begining Satan was trying to tell man he had immortality, but that is not true, that is the lie that Satan gave at the Garden of Eden.

As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.

I think your missing that all things are possible through Christ, including eternal life. We can die, but God's grace can keep us eternally. God's wrath can destroy our body and soul. I completely agree, but luckily that's not what He wants.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

We do have the promise that after all the end-time events unfold...

Heb. 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath HE APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF.

Jam. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and SIN, WHEN IT IS FINISHED, BRINGETH FORTH DEATH.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

My impression is; that God knows the future. Thus he knows it won't happen again. There will be no more rebellions led by any other angel. And there will be no other men who will be tempted by such an angel. So everything after the Biblical scenario plays out will be a sin free and death free future for all.
 
First this short summation, then READ OBADIAH 1:16 for HELLS ENDING! :crying

Nothing New God 'DOCUMENTS'!
Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15. And when God [Doubles] it?? It is a salvational fact! Gen. 41:22! If it is not to be? He Tel's us this because it is the less times such as the un/salvation Truth of the 'rain/bow or even Nah. 1:9 of sin never again being allowed a 'second time' in heaven.

In Gen. 6:3 we find this repeated truth for future Truth. No world flood God said, or else that would have been also, but the rest of the repeated Truth that will again be done...
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: [yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.]

And we need to understand that in Rev. 17:1-5 we have church denominations as mother + her daughters with BABBLING FALSE doctrines being taught for truth way past the 120 years of the Holy Spirits STRIVING'S. Only believe while living [IN SIN]. It is FINISHED & do not know what they are talking about! And again these are CHURCH'S that God has stated here, and they are all still with their evil false doctrines.. that He 'call's them to come out' from, if they remain His people! Rev. 18:4.

[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Grieved the Holy Spirit of God?? We find by reading on that the Ark Door [WAS SHUT], All Probation was CLOSED for the very last time! (representing Noah, the Preacher of RIGHTEOUSNESS' MESSAGE! Rev. 14:6) And God gave both His WARNING by His Striving + Noah's preaching for these 120 years! Let's remember that Matt. 25:10 has a SHUT DOOR ALSO! Christ can & will again be passed by, by His very own Vineyard again, the [WHOLE] Church Fold.. for the last time! Rev. 3:16='s ibid. 9! (and this was not the Rev. 17:1-5 ones per/say!)

In Psalms 19:13 we see what each known sin that is continued on does to each & every person. The word is presumption which means that the Holy Spirit has found Rom. 8:1 with NO Condemnation at the start even perhaps, when & if we are in Obedience., yet we see that we are to continue on in following Him in verse 14's [LED], if we will?? If we do not, that is then presumption! For HE HAS CONVICTED US OF MORE TRUTH THAT IS TO BE OBEYED. And note what David [Documents] as leading up to this Great Sin's ENDING!? Which is total rejection of Christ! Matt. 6:24

Psalms:
[13] Keep back thy servant [[also]] (read the above verses 7-12!) from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the [great transgression.]

Any known false doctrine in any part kept & taught for truth is totally Presumptuous and must be left! Rev. 18:4, or will find for that person a Fatal Closed Door of Probation in time.

--Elijah
 
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