Free said:
motile said:
Indeed, it's only men that demand you worship your deity every day.
On the contrary, if the Judeo-Christian God exists, then his very existence demands our continual worship because of who he is.
Why?
motile said:
For example, Jesus did not want people drooling all over him in sycophantic worship hoping their creeping would get them into heaven, he wanted people to follow the basic ideas of the social contract, to love and be loved, to abandon cynicism and help others, to follow him, not bow down to him as some sort of invisible dictator.
Three things: (1) Jesus accepted the worship of his followers,
But he did not demand it. As for the worship of his followers, would he reject the very people he wanted to teach?
(2) Jesus' teachings went far beyond any mere social contract theory, and
In what way?
(3) worship of a being does not mean that that being is "some sort of invisible dictator".
With respect, I never said it did. I said a invisible being that demands constant thanks and worship is by definition an invisible dictator.
motile said:
You can still be a good and moral person without a belief in a deity, in fact, I would say more so because you would have the knowledge that you are good for the right reasons, because you are a naturally good person, and not for any hope of reward or fear of punishment after death.
First problem is, morality is difficult, and I would argue impossible, to explain without the existence of the Judeo-Christian God.
Why though? The Judeo-Christian God hates homosexuals, is it moral to hate a human being for their sexual preference? There are many on this very forum who probably hate homosexuals with all their heart for the sole reason that they think they have to as good moral Christians. Is it moral to slice off the end of a child penis, drawing blood of a child, purely because of a religions belief? Again I could go on about al the bad things people do for their faith but I won't, instead I will try and explain how we get morals in a society without the need for a deity.
Morals are indeed guidelines for making decisions. Presented with similar situations, a person's actions will be identical every time. For example, say you're leaving a restaurant and you spot a five pound tip passing by a table. The temptation of increased wealth without much effort sure is enticing. By simply extending your arm and inconspicuously grabbing the cash, you will be five quid richer. Since no one is looking, you won't get into trouble. Plus, the waiter probably wasn't expecting such a large tip anyway. Where's the harm in that?
In this case, a Christian or a Jew would point to the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not steal." According to the Christian/Jewish point-of-view, this alone will restrain a religiously devout individual from snatching the money off the table. This follows the rules of deontological ethics: Something is either always right or always wrong. For example, stealing the money off the table would be morally wrong because stealing is always wrong.
However, what if the commandment said "Thou shalt steal?" Would stealing be an absolute right then? Is all that is required is a recommendation from a centuries-old text? How about the sixth commandment: "thou shalt not kill?" Does this rule apply with self-defense? Or war? What about working on the Sabbath? In this modern era when working on a Sunday is common and normal how can we still apply that rule? How is it actually immoral to work on a Sunday?
Here is the fundamental problem with static morals: the inability to judge every action we humans make with reason and free will. Shouldn't morals stand on their own merits? Humans are fantastic beings because of their ability to examine the consequences of their actions and make appropriate choices, as opposed to wild animals that act on instinct alone.
Therefore, morals do not come from religious tomes. Morals would exist nicely without them.
Stealing the cash off the table would be immoral because we can feel empathy, we can understand that we would not want to be stolen from ourselves. By virtue of living in a working society we have developed moral rules that allow us to work in that society. Stealing would also degrade your self-worth. If you are unable to earn five pounds on your own merit, then what good are you to yourself? You are then no better than an animal fighting for its survival in the wilderness. Taking the waiter's tip would thus prove your worthlessness.
Also, one can also reason that stealing is not good because if everyone committed robbery all the time, then what would be the reason of owning property or working? People with no belief in a deity can have superb have morals because humans learn moral lessons based on observation and an understanding of human nature. The scriptures of a religious tome are not necessary and in some cases are harmful (genital mutilation, for instance). An person with no belief in a deity reasons and considers the consequences of his actions and for all his actions. Morality is one of the features of all of humanity, so therefore morals don't just exist in the religious realm. A person with no belief in a deity can realize the beauty of humanity, and learn not to battle with it.
What it all comes down in the end is the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Words to live by.
Second problem is the assumption that people are "naturally good". I think a study of human behaviour would prove otherwise.
Hypothetically if you were shown evidence, for example if you were taken back in time 2000 or 6000 years so you could see for yourself, that the Judeo-Christian faith was utterly wrong and that the Judeo-Christian God did not exist would you then go out and murder and steal and rape...? Or, as I suspect would you remain the good and moral person that you obviously are?
Also, with respect, I never said people in general are naturally good. People can be naturally bad as well as good.
Third problem is the assumption that those who believe in a deity act morally out of hope or fear.
With respect, I never made that assumption. I actually believe strongly that most of those who believe in a deity act morally because they are moral people, but they are told to give credit for that morality to their chosen deity. They are told, mostly from birth that they could not be moral without their deity and the various forms of coercion. This was my point.
: j/k