What if Ishmael had not been born?

[Classik]

What if Abraham had not gone into Hagar?

I was just thinking Ishmael was the only reason we have religious disaster in the world. His progeny still live. Okay. But what if he had not been born?

Well. I still believe Islam would still be the 'ISLAM' it is today and the koran would still exist. Remember it was written through a demon. The enemy had to look for someone to use.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I am sorry but hypothetical subjects are such uselessness except in the case of Exploratory Science. This one, to ever have any usefulness requires active participation of folks that study the scriptures to learn but being one of those, I have so much real to deal with that I recognize such as tis as being diversions influenced by Satan and thus a diversion better spent on real issues.

 

[tim-from-pa]

The bible teaches that God knows (and has planned) everyone who is born for His purpose, so to ask that basically is the same as asking what if I went back in time and changed things? It would not happen but if it did you'd have a totally different bible because then that's God's plan.

In other words, let's ask why someone else wasn't born instead or why there wasn't an extra child of Abraham? See my point? It was the way it was because that's what was foreordained.

 

[Deborah13]

The bible teaches that God knows (and has planned) everyone who is born for His purpose, so to ask that basically is the same as asking what if I went back in time and changed things? It would not happen but if it did you'd have a totally different bible because then that's God's plan.

In other words, let's ask why someone else wasn't born instead or why there wasn't an extra child of Abraham? See my point? It was the way it was because that's what was foreordained.

Do you believe that every thing that happens in this world was foreordained by God? Do you believe that when someone sins it was foreordained by God? Do you believe that when someone does good it was foreordained by God?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Do you believe that every thing that happens in this world was foreordained by God? Do you believe that when someone sins it was foreordained by God? Do you believe that when someone does good it was foreordained by God?

I'm talking about the general plan and "cast of characters". Of course there's free choice, but there's God's sovereignty, too. For example, only a few are called now to be the church in this age (a little flock), and the rest of the people don't have that choice at this time.

 

[Classik]

The bible teaches that God knows (and has planned) everyone who is born for His purpose, so to ask that basically is the same as asking what if I went back in time and changed things? It would not happen but if it did you'd have a totally different bible because then that's God's plan.

In other words, let's ask why someone else wasn't born instead or why there wasn't an extra child of Abraham? See my point? It was the way it was because that's what was foreordained.

Interesting perspective.

But I dont really think I agree with the choice of word, 'foreordained'. It is as if God orchestrated it all, planned and executed it. I think I'd be more satisfied using 'God allowed', 'God permitted' etc it to come to pass.

Someone could afterall accuse God: You caused all these. I know there are circumstances where God had to deliberately make some changes, even unpleasant ones.

 

[Classik]

Do you believe that every thing that happens in this world was foreordained by God? Do you believe that when someone sins it was foreordained by God? Do you believe that when someone does good it was foreordained by God?

Exactly my point

 

[Deborah13]

I'm talking about the general plan and "cast of characters". Of course there's free choice, but there's God's sovereignty, too. For example, only a few are called now to be the church in this age (a little flock), and the rest of the people don't have that choice at this time.

Thank you for your reply. We are in partial agreement.

 

[Lewis]

Jeremiah 1:5 I knew thee before I formed you in the belly.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Interesting perspective.

..... I think I'd be more satisfied using 'God allowed', 'God permitted' etc it to come to pass.....

That's a tad passive, isn't it? We have free choice, so God can't foreordain something? The end is already written. Revelation proves that, and Genesis foretold it.

 

[Deborah13]

Exactly my point

Here's one scripture that I believe is the plainest in wording that supports my view of the questions I asked.
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into My mind.

Jer 11:8 Yet they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the stubbornness of their evil heart; therefore I brought upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but they did them not.'

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to set apart their sons and their daughters unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into My mind, that they should do this abomination; to cause Judah to sin.

If it didn't even come into God's mind to command them to do such a thing, then He didn't have anything to do with this evil. If He didn't think it, then He couldn't have ordained it. If He did is He just forgetful?

 

[Deborah13]

Jeremiah 1:5 I knew thee before I formed you in the belly.

Certainly God does foreknow. Does that mean He foreplanned?
I believe this is one of the things that it is hard for us to get our heads around, like the Trinity. But just because we don't understand doesn't mean it's not true.

We think we are good people, hating evil. So surely we would not allow evil if we could stop it. But God see all things, the bigger picture and He in His Sovereign position as Creator determined that He would give man a will of his own to make decisions with. That was His right as the Creator.
Some people say that if God hasn't actually planned every step in a person's life, including evil, then He is not Sovereign. No, in His Sovereignty, He chose to give man options.

 

[Classik]

Jeremiah 1:5 I knew thee before I formed you in the belly.

Which one comes first? I think this place is talking about something else like, HE knows all the decisions we'ere gonna take...'cause it'd be strange if God made me to be a pin in people's eyes (except in some cases when HE uses that to instruct or teach a lesson).

The Children of Israel asked for a king...something God disliked. HE gave them a king that gave them fulltime headache. And God deliberately did that.

Hope I didnt miss your point

 

[th1b.taylor]

Tim,
I'm sorry to see you beating your head against one of the local brick walls but there are a few lurking in the shadows no matter where we go.
Classik,
Tim used the, perfectly acceptable language of the 1611 KJV, so many love. Let's do some perspective first. People, Christian and Lost, run around trying, desperately, to find something that has evolved when true evolution is used by them every day! The English Language began as a rather sloppy language, just as most languages are today but English just evolved and keep on evolving into a very complex and specific language, just as the Koine Greek was specific. i.e. "Go and replenish the Earth." from genesis in the Creation Narrative.

Jesus/God had just created a brand new, fresh, earth and the universes. So what is to replenish? That is a very easy one that the average human being has no idea how deal with this issue when and if they are ever confronted with it, Christians included. If we look to the English Language at the time period the KJV was written, replenish was a word that was much more inclusive than it is today. Replenish did, indeed, mean to restore to a former level but it also meant to fill.

In this case we need not even go back to the 17th century English, the bible itself provides the same answer one will find studying the ancient English. In the scriptures we do find the predestination Tim has alluded to and there pops an issue that must be dealt with:
..1. Did God allow a man to make a mistake and never corrected it?
..2. Did God lie to us when He saw to it that we were taught of the free will of man?
..3. Has God been evil and deceptive, all along?

I could easily go on and on listing the issues this draws up without reading all of the Word of God, over and over. Predestination is a fact of life, God teaches us it is true. Ephesians 1:11 which says, “also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”)

So why read all of the Bible? Many reasons some I could never list because unlike God I do not know the hearts of every person in the world. I cannot spend the time to find them all but if you read the Bible once and do so submissively and prayerfully meditate on what you've read, God, through the Holy Spirit, will show you mzing things that, if tested, are true. One of the early lessons I gained was knowledge of God's Omnipresence. You see, man lives in the moment but not God. God is not restricted by time and space, no, God is, not was, in th past right now and, not but, God is in the present at this very moment also! Ah! Predestination! Not to worry, Go is also in the future right now, as He always has been! Because before He created Adam he was in the future, He knew that the drunken, dope poping, snorting and shooting Cowboy Bill Taylor would confess Him as Saviour on January 1. 1990 and because He knew that, He wrote my name in the Book of Life... Predestined to be saved!

Want to prove me wrong or right? If you truly have surrendered all of you to God and you begin the study, using any one year Bible study plan, about 15 mins. a day and you will prove me right. Begin the same study without submission and meditation and you will prove me wrong. It all depends on your personal commitment.