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What is authentic Islam? - the murder of Theo Van Gogh

G

Gary

Guest
What is authentic Islam?

"On the 2nd of November 2004, in Amsterdam, Theo Van Gogh was stabbed and shot dead by a Muslim. Van Gogh was killed because he publicly opposed Islam and made critical comments about it, including a movie on the position of women in Islam. Moderate Muslims condemned his murder, but other Muslims, like the man who killed him, believed it was right. This type of division is often seen in the Muslim community and can lead to confusion amongst non-Muslims as to which of these two groups represents authentic Islam.

"What is authentic Islam? This is a question that Muslims may disagree about too, but it certainly would be valid to consider the man Muhammad, the founder of Islam. The oldest biography (sirat) of Muhammad's life is the work of Ibn Ishaq, and in this we learn how Muhammad dealt with those who opposed him. We will consider two examples....

http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/assassins.htm

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What is the Authentic Christianity?

The Murder of Abortion Doctors, Gays, Jews and Peoples of Differing religious beliefs.
 
syntax: What is the Authentic Christianity?
The Murder of Abortion Doctors, Gays, Jews and Peoples of Differing religious beliefs.

Gary: Obviously not. But stay on topic. This thread is about Islam. Do you have any comments about the article? Do you understand Islam? Has this article helped explain why a Muslim is prepared to murder for his religion?

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SyntaxVorlon said:
What is the Authentic Christianity?

The Murder of Abortion Doctors, Gays, Jews and Peoples of Differing religious beliefs.
Click to expand...
Please....please read the article to understand the topic before you post...

If you read it you would realise that its in there doctrine to murder for there god no where in the new testament are we told to do any such thing.
 
Gary: Do you have any comments about the article? Do you understand Islam? Has this article helped explain why a Muslim is prepared to murder for his religion?
 
Gary_Bee said:
Gary: Do you have any comments about the article? Do you understand Islam? Has this article helped explain why a Muslim is prepared to murder for his religion?
Click to expand...
It's not surprising of fundamentalist religious belief in a traditional society. If God told you to kill someone, would you? Would you be prepared to murder for your religion?
 
Former Muslim warns Ridge Baptists about Islam



A former Muslim spoke at the Ridge Southern Baptist Church on Sunday evening to explain the "True Under-standing of Islam."
Pastor Mujahid el-Masih had been Muslim for 14 years before he converted to Christianity in his native country of Pakistan.
Armed with a power-point presentation and a slew of quotes, he now travels around the United States as a part of The Voices of Martyrs.
"I came from a country where there is no freedom of speech and no freedom of religion," el-Masih said...

"The best source of the truth of Islam is the Quran," el-Masih said...

He also asked that his picture not be taken due to the fact that he still had Christian family members in Pakistan, which is predominately Mus-lim.
First and foremost, el-Masih refuted any claims that Islam was a peaceful religion.
"The main theme of jihad is the murdering of Christians and Jews," el-Masih said.
According to el-Masih, Allah, the Muslim God, told Muslims to go forth and spread the religion through out the whole world by any means. Therefore, Muslims justify warfare as a means to spread the religion.
Any arguments such as passages in the Quran of tolerance for other religions were also quickly dismissed by el-Masih. He claimed that Mohammad had said the passages of tolerance before Muslims started having any clout. Once the Muslims gained some power, they rejected the idea of tolerance for other religions in favor of conquering a nation and telling them to either convert to Islam, pay a tax or be put to death.
"Muslims are allowed to lie when they are in danger," el-Masih said as an explanation for the turn around.
The perceived levels of spiritual awareness were mapped out by el-Masih in a way that made Muslims seem superior.
"Muslims believe that they are university students, Christians are in high school and the Jews are in elementary school," el-Masih said...

The content of el-Masih's lectures has been controversial for years. El-Masih's accounts of the confrontations he has received only support his arguments and he has a challenge for the people who claim that Islam is a peaceful religion.
"If you can prove that Muslim is a peaceful religion, then I will become a Muslim," el-Masih said. "But if I can prove to you that it's not, you will become a Christian."...

El-Masih cited the $14 billion that the Muslim nations have spent to promote the teachings of Islam in the U.S. to show the slow filtration of Islam into the states.
"They plan to take over America in 2020," el-Masih said.
Silent jihad was a way into the American public according to el-Masih. First the Muslims would establish businesses and then slowly take over the political realm with the goal of having a Muslim president.
"Every time you're at the pump for gas, a part of that dollar goes towards terrorists groups," el-Masih said.
Even Muslim spiritual leader Muzzammil Siddiqi, the man who prayed with Bush after the September 11 tragedy had ties to terrorist groups according to el-Masih.
When he visited England, el-Masih was told that 1,000 churches had been converted to mosques and that the Muslims believe that England will be the first country in Europe to become a country of Islam.
El-Masih has also found the trend of churches to mosques in California, including a former Lutheran church in San Diego...
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http://www.paradisepost.com/Stories/0,1 ... 25,00.html
 
yeah i have a comment. i prayed for that to happen exactly the way it happened before it happened. of course, since i knew he would end up in hell, i asked God to know for sure he would also end up there if his lifespan would be longer.
 
Sorry Joeri, I have no idea what your last posting is about, and what it has to do with the subject of Islam.

Nowhere does Jesus Christ teach us to behead infidels, cut off the hands of theives, to stone adulterers and kill.

The Islamic writings do, as does the example of Mohammed himself!
 
evanman said:
Sorry Joeri, I have no idea what your last posting is about, and what it has to do with the subject of Islam.

Nowhere does Jesus Christ teach us to behead infidels, cut off the hands of theives, to stone adulterers and kill.

The Islamic writings do, as does the example of Mohammed himself!
Click to expand...
my writing was about theo van gogh and his death.
 
SyntaxVorlon said:
Reductio ad Absurdum, I provided a similar example.
Definition
Click to expand...



As far as I can see, Gary_Bee wasn't trying to conclude anything about "authentic Islam" from the mere fact that one Muslim committed a murder.

The "similar example" you gave isn't relevant.
 
I believe that the discussion is not based solely on a murder committed by one Moslem. This one murder is yet one more instance of a tradition that has been followed by Moslems around the world throughout history.

How many Moslems are awaiting execution in the non-moslem world for speaking against Christ?

Then consider how many christians are awaiting execution in Moslem countries for "Blasphemy against Mohammed"? (One can only Blaspheme God--so many Moslems believe that Mohammed is like God).
 
Assassinations started by Muhammad -- they continue today

The discussion is assassination/murder. Muhammad started it.... his followers continue it today.

After the killing of Abu `Afak, another person dared to publicly speak out against Muhammad. Her name was `Asma bint Marwan. Again we see how Muhammad dealt with opposition. He asked, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" `Umayr b. `Adiy al-Khatmi fulfilled Muhammad's wishes by killing `Asma at night.

There are two interesting observations from these events. The first is about Muhammad's character. Muhammad was the type of man who used assassinations to remove opposition. Whether it was an old man like Abu `Afak, or a woman like `Asma bint Marwan, if they opposed him he had them dealt with. In this regard Muhammad is just like most rulers who have used murder to establish their rule. How can Muslims say Muhammad was a man of peace when he established his rule like this?

Secondly, it shows us one way in which Islam spread to the early Arab tribes. The account specifically says that after these two murders, "Islam became powerful among B. (the tribe of) Khatma". In fact, "The day after Bint Marwan was killed ... (the tribe of) Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam." What was the "power of Islam" that they saw? It was the power to kill its opponents. In this case Islam clearly spread by fear and intimidation, and Muhammad approved of this.

Theo Van Gogh publicly spoke out against Islam and he was murdered in much the same way as Abu `Afak or `Asma bint Marwan. I believe and hope that most Muslims disapprove of his murder, but if we consider the founder of Islam we see that this is how he dealt with those who opposed him.

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/assassins.htm
 
Islam FAQ (Part 8/15): Life after Death, Moral System & Human rights in Islam


http://www.muslims.org/islamfaq/faq_part08.html


FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION:


"Islam gives the right of freedom of thought and expression to all citizens of the Islamic state on the condition that it should be used for the propagation of virtue and truth and not for spreading evil and wickedness. The Islamic concept of freedom of expression is much superior to the concept prevalent in the West. Under no circumstances would Islam allow evil and wickedness to be propagated. It also does not give anybody the right to use abusive or offensive language in the name of criticism. It was the practice of the Muslims to enquire from the Holy Prophet whether on a certain matter a divine injunction had been revealed to him. If he said that he had received no divine injunction, the Muslims freely expressed their opinion on the matter."





I have seen Fidel Castro claim that the kind of democracy that they have in Cuba is far superior to Western style democracy. You don't need vast sums of money for electoral campaigning in Cuba. Of course, there is only one government approved candidate that you can vote for...
 
It's not surprising of fundamentalist religious belief in a traditional society. If God told you to kill someone, would you? Would you be prepared to murder for your religion?
Click to expand...

The Catholic Church was. Augustine basically laid out the logic for killing heretics. John Calvin followed that logic in having M. Servitus burned over green wood.
 
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