What is Election?

[ivdavid]

Here is what Calvin teaches on the limited atonement; "Christ's atonement is adequate to save all people but it is efficient for God's elect only". Jethro, I REJECT THAT!

Think of it as a person standing with a mic at the gates of the eternal lakes of fire and asking each person passing, "have all your sins been atoned by Christ?" - what would be the answer. If a person there goes, "Yes, Christ's atonement is effective for me too and hence, all my sins have been atoned." - then the surveyor would ask - "for what sin of yours then are you marching into the eternal lakes of fire?". I'd rather think a person would say - "Alas, I was indeed offered the gift of justification and righteousness by grace, which if I had clung on to through faith in Christ's sacrifice, His blood's atoning power would have been exceedingly sufficient to absolve me of all my sins - but therein I did not believe and hence did not have my sins atoned." Any issues with this?

 

[mondar]

Can you see the difference between simply knowing something is true by faith (that is, being enabled, supernaturally, to know what you can't see is true), and then retaining that faith and placing your trust in what has been shown to you to be true about the gospel you can't see and as a result, being saved? I can.

The real test is of course the scriptures.

So is your statement above the same as how ivdavid alluded to you by saying your idea is that "faith" is completely given by God out of grace, which man has to then choose to receive by "believing?"

In a way, this sounds exactly like classic Westeyan Arminianism. In this doctrine there is a universal enabling of faith that goes out to all men that ever lived that Westleyans call "prevenient grace." This is a weaker, inefficient, none effective, none grace that saves no one. The general idea is that this grace simply overcomes original sin and restores us to an Adamic state before the fall.

Of course I do not see any such weak work of God's grace that fails so frequently and miserably. The preceding grace of God that I see in the scripture is powerful and saves all whom it comes upon. I will again quote John 6:44 to show the the work of God preceding salvation is completely effecatious. It saves every last person that it comes upon without failure. It is powerful.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Notice the "draw him." That same pronoun is found in the next clause where "him" is raised in the last day to a resurrection of eternal life. This verse is an airtight denial of what you are saying above. When God draws, he never fails to save.

Out of those drawn, not even one will be lost.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
The Father has given some to the Son and draws them to the Son, and the Son will not loose any.

It's the difference between 'faith' (the God given ability to know something is true you can't see), and 'having faith'. There is a definite semantic difference the two. Nobody is saved by simply knowing something is true through God's enablement of faith. A person is saved by placing their trust in what God has shown them to be true through the gift of faith. This is hard for the church to grasp because they can only think of faith in terms of 'having faith' as in being saved, and not in terms of faith being that which God has to give a person to even know what he's asking them to believe and trust in is even true in the first place.

That's all I can say for now. It's the work week again. The brain surgeries are backing up....

Then each and every one of those who receive God's enablement of faith will also be drawn and saved and will also be the ones "having faith."

So then, while you might make a difference between those who were given faith, and those who have faith, the scripture makes it clear that they are the same identical group of people. Each and every person that God gave faith, has faith. God's grace never once failed. It is not a weak work of Grace that God does, but a powerful, efficacious work of grace that saves everyone it comes upon to the uttermost.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Not only does he save to the uttermost, but Christ, as the perfect high priest does not fail as our intercessor. When saved, we are saved to the uttermost.

 

[Chopper]

Think of it as a person standing with a mic at the gates of the eternal lakes of fire and asking each person passing, "have all your sins been atoned by Christ?" - what would be the answer. If a person there goes, "Yes, Christ's atonement is effective for me too and hence, all my sins have been atoned." - then the surveyor would ask - "for what sin of yours then are you marching into the eternal lakes of fire?". I'd rather think a person would say - "Alas, I was indeed offered the gift of justification and righteousness by grace, which if I had clung on to through faith in Christ's sacrifice, His blood's atoning power would have been exceedingly sufficient to absolve me of all my sins - but therein I did not believe and hence did not have my sins atoned." Any issues with this?

No, that is how it would be. My only question to you ivdavid is, I hesitate as I look at "all my sins have been atoned". Has his sins been atoned without his believing on the Christ?

 

[Chopper]

The real test is of course the scriptures.

So is your statement above the same as how ivdavid alluded to you by saying your idea is that "faith" is completely given by God out of grace, which man has to then choose to receive by "believing?"

In a way, this sounds exactly like classic Westeyan Arminianism. In this doctrine there is a universal enabling of faith that goes out to all men that ever lived that Westleyans call "prevenient grace." This is a weaker, inefficient, none effective, none grace that saves no one. The general idea is that this grace simply overcomes original sin and restores us to an Adamic state before the fall.

Of course I do not see any such weak work of God's grace that fails so frequently and miserably. The preceding grace of God that I see in the scripture is powerful and saves all whom it comes upon. I will again quote John 6:44 to show the the work of God preceding salvation is completely effecatious. It saves every last person that it comes upon without failure. It is powerful.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Notice the "draw him." That same pronoun is found in the next clause where "him" is raised in the last day to a resurrection of eternal life. This verse is an airtight denial of what you are saying above. When God draws, he never fails to save.

Out of those drawn, not even one will be lost.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
The Father has given some to the Son and draws them to the Son, and the Son will not loose any.


Then each and every one of those who receive God's enablement of faith will also be drawn and saved and will also be the ones "having faith."

So then, while you might make a difference between those who were given faith, and those who have faith, the scripture makes it clear that they are the same identical group of people. Each and every person that God gave faith, has faith. God's grace never once failed. It is not a weak work of Grace that God does, but a powerful, efficacious work of grace that saves everyone it comes upon to the uttermost.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Not only does he save to the uttermost, but Christ, as the perfect high priest does not fail as our intercessor. When saved, we are saved to the uttermost.

I like this post, You have said everything I believe. Well done.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah, certainly this is a key text. If I can add some information to what you say.... I apologize in advance for how technical it is, because it involves greek grammar. Yes, I have been trained in the use of the greek NT. I am not the best student, and I am a stranger, so of course this needs to be checked out. Nevertheless, it is true.

There is a small grammatical issue in Ephesians 2:8
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The issue is that the word "gift" is δωρον. That is a neuter noun for gift. The issue is that a neuter noun usually takes a neuter antecedent. In the sentence with verse 8, there is no neuter noun that could serve as the antecedent. So then, it is allowable for an entire phrase with both masculine and feminine nouns in it to serve as the neuter antecedent. A the beginning of the verse...
8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον
The noun "grace" (χαριτι) is obviously feminine because even the article (τη) is a feminine article. The noun faith is also feminine (πιστεως) but the aorist participle salvation (σεσωσμενοι) is masculine.
So then, the phrase by grace have ye been saved through faith has both masculine and feminine nouns and can serve as the antecedent of the neuter word "gift." So then, in saying that salvation is the gift your are correct, but it is also a little more. It is the entire phrase that is the antecedent of the gift.

"So then, it is allowable for an entire phrase with both masculine and feminine nouns in it to serve as the neuter antecedent."

mondar, thank you so much for this post and writing in simple terms. I did not know about this rule. I knew the antecedent should match the noun in gender, etc. so I was never really sure. I have never seen this rule in the sources that I have used for my feeble attempts at Greek grammar. I will search it out. I'm thrilled, and that is not an overstatement.

Blessings

 

[Deborah13]

The real test is of course the scriptures.

So is your statement above the same as how ivdavid alluded to you by saying your idea is that "faith" is completely given by God out of grace, which man has to then choose to receive by "believing?"

In a way, this sounds exactly like classic Westeyan Arminianism. In this doctrine there is a universal enabling of faith that goes out to all men that ever lived that Westleyans call "prevenient grace." This is a weaker, inefficient, none effective, none grace that saves no one. The general idea is that this grace simply overcomes original sin and restores us to an Adamic state before the fall.

Of course I do not see any such weak work of God's grace that fails so frequently and miserably. The preceding grace of God that I see in the scripture is powerful and saves all whom it comes upon. I will again quote John 6:44 to show the the work of God preceding salvation is completely effecatious. It saves every last person that it comes upon without failure. It is powerful.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Notice the "draw him." That same pronoun is found in the next clause where "him" is raised in the last day to a resurrection of eternal life. This verse is an airtight denial of what you are saying above. When God draws, he never fails to save.

Out of those drawn, not even one will be lost.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
The Father has given some to the Son and draws them to the Son, and the Son will not loose any.

mondar, these scriptures are powerful evidence for osas but I fail to see how they prove irresistible grace in any way.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
I see, in this verse, that the Father must draw a man in order for him to come. If he comes, the Lord will raise him up.
I don't see that it says, that the man definitely Will come.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
I see in this verse, that it is the Father's will that the Lord will not lose and will raise up, all those who come (they were draw by the Father)per v44.

Neither verse says that if the Father draws the man will come. If you can break it down, using the words in the text itself, it might be helpful.

Then each and every one of those who receive God's enablement of faith will also be drawn and saved and will also be the ones "having faith."

So then, while you might make a difference between those who were given faith, and those who have faith, the scripture makes it clear that they are the same identical group of people. Each and every person that God gave faith, has faith. God's grace never once failed. It is not a weak work of Grace that God does, but a powerful, efficacious work of grace that saves everyone it comes upon to the uttermost.

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Not only does he save to the uttermost, but Christ, as the perfect high priest does not fail as our intercessor. When saved, we are saved to the uttermost.

 

[Deborah13]

I like this post, You have said everything I believe. Well done.

If you agree with mondar, then you do believe in irresistible grace. Which says, if the Father draws a man, he WILL come to the Lord.
Therefore, anyone who does Not get saved, the Father chose Not to draw him. The man had no chance to be saved.

Please correct me mondar if I have misstated your post.

 

[Chopper]

If you agree with mondar, then you do believe in irresistible grace. Which says, if the Father draws a man, he WILL come to the Lord.
Therefore, anyone who does Not get saved, the Father chose Not to draw him. The man had no chance to be saved.

Please correct me mondar if I have misstated your post.

Yes Deb, I believe in irresistable grace for the "elect" They will be saved! What you and a few others are not doing is taking note of the fact that the elect, once saved have a predetermined job to do, and that is to go to the people who God did not call to be a part of the elect and preach the Gospel to them. They are the ones who must make a choice to be saved....God saves the elect, God sends the elect out, they preach the Gospel, man makes a choice to either accept or reject.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes Deb, I believe in irresistable grace for the "elect" They will be saved! What you and a few others are not doing is taking note of the fact that the elect, once saved have a predetermined job to do, and that is to go to the people who God did not call to be a part of the elect and preach the Gospel to them. They are the ones who must make a choice to be saved....God saves the elect, God sends the elect out, they preach the Gospel, man makes a choice to either accept or reject.

We have a five fold ministry that Paul laid out for us. They are members of the same body of Christ as you and I are. I don't see any scripture that says there is more than one group in the body of Christ.
Or any body of Christ that is Not the elect. We are all the elect, in Jesus.
Do you have scripture that points to any salvation other than....?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Chopper]

Yes Deb, I believe in irresistable grace for the "elect" They will be saved! What you and a few others are not doing is taking note of the fact that the elect, once saved have a predetermined job to do, and that is to go to the people who God did not call to be a part of the elect and preach the Gospel to them. They are the ones who must make a choice to be saved....God saves the elect, God sends the elect out, they preach the Gospel, man makes a choice to either accept or reject.

I want to add this Scripture. John 6:37. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out". This is the irresistable grace of God. I don't think there is any reason to think otherwise, the verse is very clear.

 

[Chopper]

We have a five fold ministry that Paul laid out for us. They are members of the same body of Christ as you and I are. I don't see any scripture that says there is more than one group in the body of Christ.
Or any body of Christ that is Not the elect. We are all the elect, in Jesus.
Do you have scripture that points to any salvation other than....?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The word elect has several meanings. One meaning starts with Jesus as the first, and then God elects a remnant. That remnant reaches the masses, the ones who get saved are brought into what now is called the elect. Mark 13:27 "And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven".

 

[Deborah13]

I want to add this Scripture. John 6:37. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out". This is the irresistable grace of God. I don't think there is any reason to think otherwise, the verse is very clear.

This is another scripture that points to osas, unless one thinks they can jump/run/walk, out of His hand.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Who does the Father give to Jesus?

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
I see in this verse, that it is the Father's will that the Lord will not lose and will raise up, all those who come (they were draw by the Father)per v44.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
I see, in this verse, that the Father must draw a man in order for him to come. If he comes, the Lord will raise him up.
I don't see that it says, that the man definitely Will come.

You know Chopper, I believe we are saved by grace alone, through faith. I don't believe we are saved by faith alone, many do. I believe that God's grace, which is completely undeserved, is the source of my salvation. Faith is the means by which I received this wonderful gift.
The word 'source' above may not be the best word to use, but it's all I can think of right now.

 

[Deborah13]

The word elect has several meanings. One meaning starts with Jesus as the first, and then God elects a remnant. That remnant reaches the masses, the ones who get saved are brought into what now is called the elect. Mark 13:27 "And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven".

Oooo.....I just find this on the Blue Letter Bible site. I haven't read it all myself yet, but I think it might be helpful to both of us.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?topic=VT0000867

 

[ivdavid]

No [issues], that is how it would be. My only question to you ivdavid is, I hesitate as I look at "all my sins have been atoned". Has his sins been atoned without his believing on the Christ?

No believer in Christ is ever going to be passing through the eternal lakes of fire - so naturally, I am stating that an unbeliever cannot claim the effective atonement by Christ's blood - hence it is Limited Atonement (effectively). If the same person, however, had sought to believe in Christ while he heard the Gospel preached - he would not have been turned away - and in that Christ's atonement is exceedingly adequate and sufficient. This is how I've understood Limited Atonement - not as eager believers being turned away because God ran out of His 'limited' atoning power, but as God 'limiting' His atoning power to only those who believe in His Son. Are you now a 5-pointer? ;)

 

[ivdavid]

I believe we are saved by grace alone, through faith.

Also qualify whether we believe while in the flesh(self-nature) or in the spirit(God-nature)? That would lead you to "irresistible grace".

Let's break it into steps -
Step 1:
God creates man in the flesh ie with a self nature - and this creation is good and without corruption, though it is corruptible. The flesh(self-nature) generates from the self, the desires, counsel and power for any act - while the individual soul chooses the best counselled desire to be acted upon, accordingly having his beliefs and emotions influenced in his heart.
Sin corrupts this flesh and enters the world.

Step 2:
God gives His commandments and the Law of Works (Lev 18:5) and commands man in the flesh to keep it. With sin in the flesh, the self-nature does not obey God's Law and is in enmity with Him. God still holds man accountable to His ideal perfect standards which are not to be changed to suit fallen man's inabilities - and finds him guilty under the Law. In addition, He also gave the Law to bring out the operation of sin, which otherwise lies dormant - thereby revealing its existence.

Step 3:
God sends forth His Son with the Gospel. He now commands man to believe in Christ to be redeemed from the aforementioned curse of the Law. Alas, man in sinful flesh is still not pleasing to God and chooses not to believe.

Step 4:
Man can now Righteously and Justly be condemned. As Sovereign King though, God could still choose to have mercy upon this condemned man - which if He does bestow by His grace, He also wills to transform this man - for what use is it to again permit a man in sinful flesh to live. Hence, God regenerates this man - wherein He takes away the hardened heart and gives him a new heart - renews his spirit and sets his soul in it, newly creating an inner man within the outer flesh.

Step 5:
The spirit(God-nature) generates godly desires, counsel by the Mind of Christ and power by the Holy Spirit - while the individual soul, now in the inner man, chooses the best counselled desire to be acted upon, accordingly having his beliefs and emotions influenced in his heart. Now, man in the uncorrupted(and incorruptible) spirit, chooses to repent, believe and receive forgiveness and adoption. God then continues to sanctify man with His preserving Grace unto good works, giving worthless man the privilege of participating in His Kingdom work.

Step 6:
In the final resurrection, man's outer flesh passes away - and a new spiritual body is given to house the inner man. God has shown forth His complete glory in imparting the knowledge of how the flesh profits nothing and that God alone is Good, Wise, Righteous, Just, Merciful, Gracious etc.

In this system, man finds the Glorious God as He ought to be found - irresistible. The only ones who find God resistible are the ones who can't see God in all His glory, blinded by sin.

 

[mondar]

mondar, these scriptures are powerful evidence for osas but I fail to see how they prove irresistible grace in any way.


John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

I see, in this verse, that the Father must draw a man in order for him to come. If he comes, the Lord will raise him up.

I don't see that it says, that the man definitely Will come.


John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

I see in this verse, that it is the Father's will that the Lord will not lose and will raise up, all those who come (they were draw by the Father)per v44.


Neither verse says that if the Father draws the man will come. If you can break it down, using the words in the text itself, it might be helpful.

First, thank you for asking questions concerning the text. That is of course exactly what a Christian should do, we go to the text.

Concerning the text......

The first thing to address in verse 44 is the phrase "and I will raise him up on the last day." The phrase is actually found three times in the passage. The first two times are in verses 39 and 40...
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verse 40 makes it clear that the phrase is not speaking of a general resurrection of everyone, but the context and phrase is speaking only of the resurrection of the saved. Please notice that the first part of the verse speaks of salvation ( "every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life"). When looking at this resurrection, then, it is a resurrection for only those who believeth. With that in mind, I do not think the phrase "and I will raise him up on the last day" needs to much explanation in verse 40. The word "everyone" is not speaking of the entire human race, that the whole human race are believers. That is a doctrine called universalism. So also, the ones being raised up are not all men everywhere, but they are the ones who believe, and behold the Son. So then, it is a limited group that the phrase "and I will raise him up on the last day" speaks of. It is limited to believers only.

When the same identical phrase occurs in verse 44, it has to be the same group. It again speaks of the resurrection of the saved. So then, the question is how did these people get saved, they are first drawn.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Notice the two actions preformed by the Father and Son. The Father draws "him", and the Son raises "him." Now the pronoun "him" is speaking of the same group or person. There is no possible exegetical reason to make them two different groups. They occur in the passage right together and must speak of the same group.

So then, in this passage how many of those drawn are raised up to salvation on the last day.
1- A few
2- Some
3- Most
4- Each and everyone drawn is raised.

Now could it be that some of those drawn by the Father are not raised up by the Son? If words mean anything, and they do, the two groups are the same. Each person drawn by the Father is raised up by the Son to salvation. If the whole word is drawn, then the whole world is saved and we have universalism. All would come to faith.

The doctrine of irresistible grace simply makes the claim that God never fails in saving those he chose. The fact that God draws, and this drawing without fail leads to eternal life is what the term "irresistible grace" is about.


SEMANTICS:
If I might add that I do not consider the acrostic TULIP to be the best teaching tool. People in general seem to misunderstand the 5 points for some reason. Some Reformed people use the term "effectual grace" instead of "irresistible grace." I favor the different terminology. We can actually resist God. The scripture asks "why do you resist the Holy Spirit." Certainly men have the capacity to resist the gospel. Oh how I wish all we had to do is preach the gospel and no one would resist it. That would be great, but it just aint that way, is it! So the gospel and Gods grace is certainly resistible. Of course in saying this I am changing what Reformed people mean by the term. Reformed people agree with my statements here. This is why some reformed people use the term "effectual grace." Effectual grace always has its effect. That effect is cause by regeneration. The concept of regeneration as the cause of faith actually underlies much of the discussion. What that concept is understood, the 5 points fall into their proper place. In essence, there are no 1-4 pointers. When you understand how the doctrine of regeneration as the cause of faith, then you understand the 5 points as 1 doctrine and you understand it correctly.

John 6:44 has been a fascination to me because it involves the trinity. Those who are saved, are drawn by the Father, raised by the Son, and in Titus 3:5 we see that they are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Salvation involves all members of the trinity. It is one salvation, and one God, but all three persons are involved in different aspects of salvation.

What I am saying about the text might not be easy to grasp, but I trust you will go to the text. It might take some wrestling with the text, but again, that's what Christians do. Thanks for the question on the text.

 

[ivdavid]

If I might add that I do not consider the acrostic TULIP to be the best teaching tool.

Shall we call it "TUPLE"? The other anagram thrown was "LETUP"!

 

[Chopper]

This is another scripture that points to osas, unless one thinks they can jump/run/walk, out of His hand.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Who does the Father give to Jesus?

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
I see in this verse, that it is the Father's will that the Lord will not lose and will raise up, all those who come (they were draw by the Father)per v44.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
I see, in this verse, that the Father must draw a man in order for him to come. If he comes, the Lord will raise him up.
I don't see that it says, that the man definitely Will come.

You know Chopper, I believe we are saved by grace alone, through faith. I don't believe we are saved by faith alone, many do. I believe that God's grace, which is completely undeserved, is the source of my salvation. Faith is the means by which I received this wonderful gift.
The word 'source' above may not be the best word to use, but it's all I can think of right now.

Hi Deb, The answer to your question about John 6:37 you ask "Who does the Father give to Jesus?" Actually that verse answers both question's.

1st. God, in His wisdom, wanted a foundation of followers called the elect to represent Him to the people who were not following Him. The elect, as I have mentioned before is a remnant, a small group out of the masses. I see Abraham as the first human to be selected by God. I see all the prophets of the O.T. as part of the remnant/elect, I see Moses, Joshua, etc. then we come to the N.T. and I see John the Baptist, the Disciples, Apostles and other's, perhaps you, all part of the remnant/elect. God predetermined that this small group who are the foundation of the plan of God to offer Salvation to all mankind.

2nd. John 6:37 as I mentioned before, has the word "shall" come to Me is the Scripture you ask for, as a verse that says man will definitely come.

I too believe we are saved by grace alone through faith.

 

[mondar]

Shall we call it "TUPLE"? The other anagram thrown was "LETUP"!

LOL, that would certainly be an interesting discussion.

 

[Chopper]

No believer in Christ is ever going to be passing through the eternal lakes of fire - so naturally, I am stating that an unbeliever cannot claim the effective atonement by Christ's blood - hence it is Limited Atonement (effectively). If the same person, however, had sought to believe in Christ while he heard the Gospel preached - he would not have been turned away - and in that Christ's atonement is exceedingly adequate and sufficient. This is how I've understood Limited Atonement - not as eager believers being turned away because God ran out of His 'limited' atoning power, but as God 'limiting' His atoning power to only those who believe in His Son. Are you now a 5-pointer? ;)

Ha, Ha, Good one, I agree!! Soooooooo I'm still a 4 pointer of Calvinism but a 5 pointer of indavidism.