What is "good works"....

[cj]

Forgive me if this is contrary to the determination of the moderators, but I believe what I have said below is important for us all to be reminded of.

I have edited it so that the focus is on the point and not the person.

Please take it as such.

Thanks.



Okay, lets now look at the verse presented by OC,

Matthew 5:16, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

The Lord said "Let your light so shine before men,..."

What is this "your light" that we should let shine before men?

To find the answer to this we need to first look at Isaiah 58:6,

"Is this not the fast that I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free, And to break every yoke?

Is it not to divide your bread to the hungry, And to bring the wandering poor home; When you see the naked, to cover him, And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Then your light will break forth like the dawn, And your recovery will speedily spring forth. And your righteousness will go before you; The glory of Jehovah will guard you from behind."


Does anyone m Who said these words at the commencement of His ministry?

Let's remind ourselves.... Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to announce the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to send away in release those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, the year of jubilee.''

But our Lord went on......

"And when He rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant, He sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him....... And He began to say to them,....... Today...... this Scripture........ has...... been..... fulfilled........ in your hearing."

Praise the Lord for His true word. Praise Him for Hios faithfulness. For.....

"Today...... this Scripture........ has...... been..... fulfilled........ in your hearing."

So declared the Light of the world.

John 1:9, "This was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

John 3:19, "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil."

John 8:12, "Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John 9:5, "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

John 11:9, "Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world."

John 12:46, "I have come as a light into the world, that every one who believes into Me would not remain in darkness."


So know this saints,...... Matthew 5:14, "You are the light of the world. It is impossible for a city situated upon a mountain to be hidden."


Jesus Christ is the Light in us, Jesus Christ is "your light" and my light. And it is Jesus Christ Himself that we should allow to shine out of us.

Doing good works preaches the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said so.

"Doing".......... What is this "doing"?....... Can man really "do" anything?

Let our Lord tell us,

John 5:30, "I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me."

John 8:28, "Jesus therefore said to them, When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am, and that I do nothing from Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things."

Jesus in His humanity declared that He did nothing of Himself, this therefore should be our pattern.

Yet the scripture says "...that they may see your good works,..."

So if we do nothing, how can men see our good works?

Remember, Jesus Himself said, Mark 10:18, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One -- God."

Only God is "good".

Thus, we can know from this that if there are any "good" works to be seen, these works must be of God alone.

Perhaps we can be bold and say ""...that they may see your God works,..."

And this then brings us to the question, what is the work of God that men can see?

Again, let us turn to the Lord for His answer to this,

John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God,..... that you believe into Him whom He has sent."

The work of God is to get men to believe into Him whom He has sent.

And this truth regarding God's work is what is the foundation for every believers living and being.

Our believing into Christ in all things is the light that shines before men and bring glory to God.

And scripture tells us that our belief is simply Christ in us as the power to believe.

Christ is everything saints.

Of course, this is only the beginning of the gospel, or one part- certainly the entirety of the gospel is not the social gospel- nor is the netirety of the gospel the Last Judgement.

Wisdom is knowing when to preach what to whom. We see clearly that Paul knew how to become all things to all men that he might win some. There are an abundance of people who will hear the gospel in the midst of human kindness. Still others are moved by displays of courage, yet others by patience. The gospel is not words only, but words carried in truth, and in spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22) which makes the words become Word for the hearer.

No saints, wisdom is Christ, Him who God declared as such in 1 Corinthians 1:24,

"But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God..... and..... the wisdom of God.

Our knowing when to preach and what to preach is just obedience to Him who is wisdom in us.


What OC is presenting is the false concept that men are saved by their reaction to what they perceive,..... this is not what scripture tells us.

And in this false doctrine that OC presents here is the folly and wickedness of the apostate institutions that he serves in His speaking.

Saints, what was kind and compassionate about Paul's introduction to the Gospel of God (and yes, the Gospel is not just something that is spoken in words, the Gospel of God is actually a living Person who is today seated on a throne; the Gospel of God is Jesus Christ).

Paul was thrown to the grown and blinded,...... according to the expressed wisdom of God regarding what He knew was needed to save Paul.

But men want to box God in, by saying "good works" must mean being nice according to the world's concept of nice.

This is simply not of God, and is not His way.

His way is,..... be obedient to what He shows you, no matter what it looks like. And know always that He will never show you something that is not Christ. So before anything else,...... know Christ completely.

And to know Christ is a lifelong endeavor.


Saints, you can make your light shine by just knowing and growing in Christ. For as you do, everything else about your outward living and being will just spontaneously reflect what is on the inside.

What is expressed on the outside is simply a reflection of what the reality is on the inside.

There are many unbelieving men who do "good works",..... but God has nothing in them nor has anything to do with them.

In fact, even as they do these "good works" God declares their work as wickedness.

In the verses from Isaiah, and those that came before, if you read them you will see that the Israelites were fasting, believing that they were doing good in God's eyes. But God declared to them that it was not just a matter fasting, but a matter of fasting in accordance with His present will.



See saints, the reality of faith is made manifest in the expression of God's present will.


Faith is God's will,.... and is the proof of God's will.

And God's will revealed is what brings a person to God.

Thus it is God's will revealed that is the "good works" of believers.


In love,

cj

 

[Rick W]

KJV
1Cor 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Cor 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Cor 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

NIV
1 Cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
1 Cor 13:5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
1 Cor 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
1 Cor 13:7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

We can't do this but Christ can.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The tone of this post is fine, but the length is extravagant. I will need to edit this liberally

Okay, lets now look at the verse presented by OC,

Matthew 5:16, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

The Lord said "Let your light so shine before men,..."

What is this "your light" that we should let shine before men?

To find the answer to this we need to first look at Isaiah 58:6,

No need for a lengthy exegesis- the Light is Christ.

Doing good works preaches the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said so.

"Doing".......... What is this "doing"?....... Can man really "do" anything?

Again, the answer is obvious. Apart from Him we can do nothing- but with Him, we can do all things.

John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God,..... that you believe into Him whom He has sent."

The work of God is to get men to believe into Him whom He has sent.

And this truth regarding God's work is what is the foundation for every believers living and being.

Our believing into Christ in all things is the light that shines before men and bring glory to God.

And scripture tells us that our belief is simply Christ in us as the power to believe.

This is where you go somewhat askew. Believing is more than simply intellectually assenting to a concept. To the 1 st century Jew, to the Church Fathers, to James- to Christ, as He made manifest- believing is an active demonstration combining faith with action.

Common sense dictates this: "talk is cheap."
Scripture declares "faith without works is dead."
The gospel is to be proclaimed not only in words, but in deeds.

The gospel is not just a bunch of big ideas- it is essentially interpersonal. To bring gospel truth, one must first build a bridge of trust and credibility with they who are receiving the truth. And a big cargo of truth requires a sturdy bridge.

Christ is everything saints.

And, by all means, let Him act through us, not the preaching predilections of Finney or Comfort or Schuller or anyone else.

Of course, this is only the beginning of the gospel, or one part- certainly the entirety of the gospel is not the social gospel- nor is the netirety of the gospel the Last Judgement.

Wisdom is knowing when to preach what to whom. We see clearly that Paul knew how to become all things to all men that he might win some. There are an abundance of people who will hear the gospel in the midst of human kindness. Still others are moved by displays of courage, yet others by patience. The gospel is not words only, but words carried in truth, and in spiritual fruit (Galatians 5:22) which makes the words become Word for the hearer.

What OC is presenting is the false concept that men are saved by their reaction to what they perceive,..... this is not what scripture tells us.

And in this false doctrine that OC presents here is the folly and wickedness of the apostate institutions that he serves in His speaking.

In point of fact, OC is presenting his own revelation of how repentance comes, as found in the repentance of the Prodigal, in the awakening of Jonah within the belly of the whale, with the heart change of Zaccheus, and in the salvation of the Phillipian jailer. In each case, the change of behavior was preceded by a change of mind- which was in turn brought about by circumstances. It is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance. Likewise, it is the acceptance of Christ that led to the heart change of Zaccheus and the Samaritan woman.
Acceptance, not tolerance.

Saints, what was kind and compassionate about Paul's introduction to the Gospel of God (and yes, the Gospel is not just something that is spoken in words, the Gospel of God is actually a living Person who is today seated on a throne; the Gospel of God is Jesus Christ).

Paul was thrown to the grown and blinded,...... according to the expressed wisdom of God regarding what He knew was needed to save Paul.

The astute reader will note that it was Christ whose presence knocked Paul off his high horse.

There is no record of Christians being known for throwing heathen off of their horses.

But men want to box God in, by saying "good works" must mean being nice according to the world's concept of nice.

This is simply not of God, and is not His way.

Agreed. Nice is lying nonsense. Nice is no substitute for genuine love, compassion, and gentleness. Nice wears out, love never fails.

 

[cj]

The tone of this post is fine, but the length is extravagant. I will need to edit this liberally

What I think is extravagant is your use of the word extravagant.

Insatiable, isn't he,..... but in a negative way this can be a good thing, as one needs to approach the light, even from a point of pride.

Okay, that said, and all kidding aside.......

No need for a lengthy exegesis- the Light is Christ.

But we only come to this truth through the revelation of scripture through the Spirit.

The encouragement of this practice is another missing aspect of the apostate institutions, those who would be flipant with God's word, briefly dismissing it with the short retort..... "No need for a lengthy exegesis- the Light is Christ."

OC, all effort carries the truth. The fact is, even as I went back into Isaiah I was reminded and uplifted by the work of God. And I believe others can share this experience also.

Again, the answer is obvious. Apart from Him we can do nothing- but with Him, we can do all things.

"With Him?".... really, is that what the scripture says, "With Him?" Cause I know it as "In Him".

But hey, I'm not follower of false doctrine.

This is where you go somewhat askew.

You're funny.

I "go askew?"......... Your institute's heads pray to little pictures and you suggest that it is I who's gone askew.

Whoa, lets come back to reality huh.

Believing is more than simply intellectually assenting to a concept.

Now, if we can only convince the many bound by religion of that.

To the 1 st century Jew, to the Church Fathers, to James- to Christ, as He made manifest- believing is an active demonstration combining faith with action.

Well, we really need less vagueness than what you present, in order to be clear.

See,..... faith is action. What is seen outwardly is the manifestation of the inward life.

You, would like to plant the thought that the two are seperate, but they are not.

What "action" is apparent in the faith of a seed? None. Yet, given the proper environment we know some form of tree can grow out of it,.... spontaneously.

As for the Jews,.... they know salvation under the law.

As for the Church fathers,...... you are way to general.

As for James,.... scriptures show us that he struggled with His Jewish heritage, and as such, see the above to better understand James in his humanity.

As for our Lord,.... He is our answer, He is our response, He is our action.

Common sense dictates this: "talk is cheap."

Common sense also dictates that to not speak in your defense when faced with your own execution is foolish.

But God considers man's common sense as being of no value.

Scripture declares "faith without works is dead."

Absolutely,...... but not just any ol action, contrived by ungodly men.

The gospel is to be proclaimed not only in words, but in deeds.

There you go again, adding to the scriptures.

The Gospel, is simply to be proclaimed. It is simply one thing, not two.

The gospel is not just a bunch of big ideas- it is essentially interpersonal. To bring gospel truth, one must first build a bridge of trust and credibility with they who are receiving the truth. And a big cargo of truth requires a sturdy bridge.

This is not true. God can use a donkey to deliver His truth.

Only puffed-up men believe that they in some way must first build something.

This "building" concept is straight out of the wicked Babylonian way, one which perpetuates the false belief that men can work their way to God.

And, by all means, let Him act through us, not the preaching predilections of Finney or Comfort or Schuller or anyone else.

"Act through us?"

Are you serious?

He does not want to "act through us" but WITH us. This is what God's economy towards man is all about; the oneness of God and man.

Based on your own words, you seem not to even understand this basic truth OC.

In point of fact, OC is presenting his own revelation of how repentance comes, as found in the repentance of the Prodigal, in the awakening of Jonah within the belly of the whale, with the heart change of Zaccheus, and in the salvation of the Phillipian jailer. In each case, the change of behavior was preceded by a change of mind- which was in turn brought about by circumstances. It is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance. Likewise, it is the acceptance of Christ that led to the heart change of Zaccheus and the Samaritan woman.

Again, you expose yourself OC,.....

It is God who created the environments of each, it is God who softened the hearts of each, it is God who made a way for each, it is God who strenghtened each,....... Scripture declares the truth, that it is God and not man, who does everything needed.

I woun't suggest where your revelation comes from, but it ain't God.

There is no record of Christians being known for throwing heathen off of their horses.

Read your own words OC,..... "It was Christ who...."

It should only ever be "Christ who...."

And for sure Christ has continued through the centuries to "knock" people off their high-horse.

Agreed. Nice is lying nonsense. Nice is no substitute for genuine love, compassion, and gentleness. Nice wears out, love never fails.

Yet, human love will fail.

It is divine love that will never fail.

The problem is, how can we know when it is divine love out of which we are living, and not human love?

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The tone of this post is fine, but the length is extravagant. I will need to edit this liberally

What I think is extravagant is your use of the word extravagant.

Insatiable, isn't he,..... but in a negative way this can be a good thing, as one needs to approach the light, even from a point of pride.

God bless you- I see that you are unable to get through a single post without making some type of personal commentary and deragatory remark.

Okay, that said, and all kidding aside.......

No need for a lengthy exegesis- the Light is Christ.

But we only come to this truth through the revelation of scripture through the Spirit.

The encouragement of this practice is another missing aspect of the apostate institutions, those who would be flipant with God's word, briefly dismissing it with the short retort..... "No need for a lengthy exegesis- the Light is Christ."

I stand by my comment.

OC, all effort carries the truth. The fact is, even as I went back into Isaiah I was reminded and uplifted by the work of God. And I believe others can share this experience also.

Wonderful. It seemed as if your reply was directed to me.

Again, the answer is obvious. Apart from Him we can do nothing- but with Him, we can do all things.

"With Him?".... really, is that what the scripture says, "With Him?" Cause I know it as "In Him".

But hey, I'm not follower of false doctrine.

Neither am I, so I'm not sure the relevance of this closing comment. Nor am I certain of the outcome you would hope for with the word parsing here. We are co-laborers with Christ.

This is where you go somewhat askew.

You're funny.

I "go askew?"......... Your institute's heads pray to little pictures and you suggest that it is I who's gone askew.

Whoa, lets come back to reality huh.

I belong to no "institute" nor "institution." I belong to the Body of Christ, which is not only spiritual, but manifest (as if that distinction even exists). Your non-church Christianity is not de facto more spiritual or accurate than my identifiable church.

I might add that you have a practice of creating scenarios and religious distinctives which do not exist (no one prays 'to' pictures). This is known as making strawmen arguments, and it is very tedious.

And, in point of fact, your argument did go askew- as in wrong.

Believing is more than simply intellectually assenting to a concept.

Now, if we can only convince the many bound by religion of that.

[quote="Orthodox Christian":e9671]To the 1 st century Jew, to the Church Fathers, to James- to Christ, as He made manifest- believing is an active demonstration combining faith with action.

Well, we really need less vagueness than what you present, in order to be clear.

See,..... faith is action. What is seen outwardly is the manifestation of the inward life.

You, would like to plant the thought that the two are seperate, but they are not.[/quote:e9671]
Nonsense. I have made the point there is not one without the other.

What "action" is apparent in the faith of a seed? None. Yet, given the proper environment we know some form of tree can grow out of it,.... spontaneously.

You have now again separated faith and action, by implying that no acion is required.

As for the Jews,.... they know salvation under the law.

As for the Church fathers,...... you are way to general.

As for James,.... scriptures show us that he struggled with His Jewish heritage, and as such, see the above to better understand James in his humanity.

Here is a direct, unflinching question: are you denying the scriptural truth of the epistle of James? Do you deny any part of his letter?
Please do not contextualize, a yes or no will be sufficient.

Common sense dictates this: "talk is cheap."

Common sense also dictates that to not speak in your defense when faced with your own execution is foolish.

Vainly argumentative. Talk is cheap. Without a demonstration of the truth of Christ's words, what one has is a demonstration of the falsehood of Christ's words. Words are not passive, they are active. If I claim to have the truth, yet sin, I am shown to be a liar.

This isn't rocket science, nor is it a deeply hidden mystery.

The gospel is to be proclaimed not only in words, but in deeds.

There you go again, adding to the scriptures.

The Gospel, is simply to be proclaimed. It is simply one thing, not two.

And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

True religion is this: keeping oneself unspotted by the world (holiness), and visiting widows and orphans in their distress (faith in action).

Above are examples of how the gospel is perceived by seeing and by hearing. Though there is one gospel message, there are various ways to preach it, and there various ways to receive it.

The gospel is not just a bunch of big ideas- it is essentially interpersonal. To bring gospel truth, one must first build a bridge of trust and credibility with they who are receiving the truth. And a big cargo of truth requires a sturdy bridge.

This is not true. God can use a donkey to deliver His truth.

Only puffed-up men believe that they in some way must first build something.

So you see human interaction as being ancilliar and unnecessary to the building of the Kingdom. Why then does Paul bother to become a Jew to reach a Jew? Why does he become a Gentile so as to reach a Gentiel? Why does God become enfleshed and speak to man?

I guess you would render 'come let us reason together' as 'let me tell ya how it is.'

This "building" concept is straight out of the wicked Babylonian way, one which perpetuates the false belief that men can work their way to God.

It is nothing of the sort, nor do I hold to this belief.

And, by all means, let Him act through us, not the preaching predilections of Finney or Comfort or Schuller or anyone else.

"Act through us?"

Are you serious?

He does not want to "act through us" but WITH us. This is what God's economy towards man is all about; the oneness of God and man.

John 1:7
The same (John) came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
2 Cor 9:11
Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
Rom 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

He acts in, through, around, and in spite of.

In point of fact, OC is presenting his own revelation of how repentance comes, as found in the repentance of the Prodigal, in the awakening of Jonah within the belly of the whale, with the heart change of Zaccheus, and in the salvation of the Phillipian jailer. In each case, the change of behavior was preceded by a change of mind- which was in turn brought about by circumstances. It is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance. Likewise, it is the acceptance of Christ that led to the heart change of Zaccheus and the Samaritan woman.

Again, you expose yourself OC,.....

It is God who created the environments of each, it is God who softened the hearts of each, it is God who made a way for each, it is God who strenghtened each,....... Scripture declares the truth, that it is God and not man, who does everything needed.

I woun't suggest where your revelation comes from, but it ain't God.

Well, that in fact is a suggestion.
What you leave out of your response above is the reality that it is metaoinia- to rethink- of which I speak. God sets the environment, man makes his decision. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision. He sets before us life and death and says "chose life." Yet we still are allowed to chose. And the reward of right choice is self-contained.

There is no record of Christians being known for throwing heathen off of their horses.

Read your own words OC,..... "It was Christ who...."

It should only ever be "Christ who...."

And for sure Christ has continued through the centuries to "knock" people off their high-horse.

And, I repeat, it is He who does the knocking. Those who decide to take over and do it for Him end up in Inquisitions, drownings of Anabaptists, pogroms against Jews, and so on. Add to that obvious list the very subtle and small-scale de-horsings attempted by self-appointed prophets daily.

Agreed. Nice is lying nonsense. Nice is no substitute for genuine love, compassion, and gentleness. Nice wears out, love never fails.

Yet, human love will fail.

It is divine love that will never fail.

The problem is, how can we know when it is divine love out of which we are living, and not human love?

In love,
cj

I would answer that the Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth. Discernment is given of and by God. Nonetheless, blind spots remain in every believer.

 

[Scott]

Please present your arguments without the personal jabs at the other guy's intelligence. The crux of Apologetics is doctrine and never namecalling, so lets stay with the essentials because getting personal isn't.

 

[Vic C.]

The tone of this post is fine, but the length is extravagant.

Yes, this seems to be a problem across the boards. Lets try and keep it short and to the point.

 

[Pelagia]

Hello All,

I found this thread quite interesting, although, I could not keep up with all the arguements, but I would like to offer an explanation of this passage by Blessed Theophylact. He was born, in Greece, during the 1st half of the 11th century, pre-Great Schism(during the Byzantine era). He served many years as deacon in St. Sophia in Constantinople. He was reputed for his great knowledge of sacred Scripture. He became Archbishop of Bulgaria in 1081 A.D.

LET YOUR LIGHT SO SHINE BEFORE MEN, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD WORKS, AND GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN.

"He did not say, 'You must display your virtue' for that is not good; but rather He said only, 'Let it shine,' so that even your enemies will marvel and glorify not you, but your Father. If we practice virtue, we must practice it for the glory of God, and not for our own glory."

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[Gary]

To see good works by us is to see Christ in us. That is why Jesus says, let your light shine. It is not something we create or make up, but something we allow the Lord to do through us. It is God’s light; our choice is whether to hide it or let it shine.

The purpose of letting our light shine and reveal our good works is not to bring attention or praise to ourselves but to God. Our intent should be that, in what we are and in what we do, others may see God in order that they may glorify [our] Father who is in heaven. Jesus’ speaking of the Father emphasizes God’s tenderness and intimacy, and speaking of His being in heaven emphasizes His majesty and holiness, as He is pictured dwelling in the splendor of His eternal holy home. Our good works are to magnify God’s grace and power. This is the supreme calling of life: glorifying God. Everything we do is to cause others to give praise to the God who is the source of all that is good. The way we live should lead those around us to glorify (doxazoµ, from which we get doxology) the heavenly Father.

When what we do causes people to be attracted to us rather than to God, to see our human character rather than His divine character, we can be sure that what they see is not His light.

It is said of Robert Murray McCheyne, a godly Scottish minister of the last century, that his face carried such a hallowed expression that people were known to fall on their knees and accept Jesus Christ as Savior when they looked at him. Others were so attracted by the self-giving beauty and holiness of his life that they found his Master irresistible.

It was also said of the French pietist Francois Fenelon that his communion with God was such that his face shined with divine radiance. A religious skeptic who was compelled to spend the night in an inn with Fenelon, hurried away the next morning, saying, “If I spend another night with that man I’ll be a Christian in spite of myself.â€Â

Source: Matthew: The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, MacArthur, John (Chicago: Moody Press) 1989.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I think both Gary's and Pelagia's posts are right on the money. Consider, the verse prior to 'let your light so shine'

15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.

Only if the light shining is Christ is there truly Light shining from a person.

And, we might add, it is not a man's works, in the sense of him and his goodness, that shines. Rather, it is the Light within that has been given.

Therefore, one must allow, or let, the Light to shine by not covering it with selfishness and sin NOR self-effort. Interestingly, as Gary pointed out, there seem to be people who simply radiate God's presence (like Moses, or St Nektarios). These are people who consciously seek and obey God. Their faith is active in the extreme.

Now, does this translate into the following- such persons, letting their light shine before men- will they be kind, compassionate, gentle and humble? Of course- for Christ is all of these. Will they feed the hungry, cloth the naked and visit the imprisoned? Without question-Christ has commanded it, and Christ will do it if He is not waylayed.

Will these radiant saints of which Gary and Pelagia spoke engage in wrath, bickering, and the like? I think not. Will they be moral relativists and wishy washy on matters of truth? Of course not.

Our 'work' then is to allow/let the Light shine through by NOT letting carnal self get in the way through either extreme of lawlessness or self-effort.

 

[Dave...]

For Christians, anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God (1 Corinthians 4:7). Apart from Jesus, we can do nothing (good) (John 15:5). It's all under grace, even the good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). This is why we give God all the Glory, because He alone deserves it. Apart from God's grace (without God as it's source), every work is of the flesh and not good (Isaiah 64:6).

 

[Pelagia]

Gary wrote:

To see good works by us is to see Christ in us. That is why Jesus says, let your light shine. It is not something we create or make up, but something we allow the Lord to do through us. It is God’s light;

This is so true and Christ must be in us, for this light to shine, because we cannot do anything without Him.

This is the supreme calling of life: glorifying God.

Actually, the holy fathers of the Orthodox faith have taught that the supreme calling is to regain our former nature - communion with God(theosis). The glorification of God becomes an obvious outcome due to reaching that goal.

The saints exhibited such physical illumination because they had aquired the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit shone within them, like St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory the Theologian and so many others. The round light around their heads, in the icons, is the representation of the Light that shone within them.

The holy fathers taught that the original sin is seperation from God(that's why we are all born with it - we are not born within the state of theosis) and our goal in life is to regain that union(theosis), but it is a union that can only be reached if we renounce the passions of this world and give our whole lives to God...

We become distracted in this world and focus our goals on just being good people, which is a start, but then we leave it at that. We don't realize that we haven't reached the ultimate goal.

It's like starting a race and then stopping half way, with the illusion that we have completed the course.

Forgive me for getting off track.

In Christ,

Pelagia

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Can I answer that question in TWO SENTENCES?

What are good works? Any works that are NOT performed by humans, rather they are performed by God THROUGH humans.

God's works are good works.....No human on this earth can perform Good works without God.

 

[cj]

God bless you- I see that you are unable to get through a single post without making some type of personal commentary and deragatory remark.

The pot calling the kettle black,..... all I want OC is for you to see what you are. I throw out the bait and you just can't help but respond in the flesh.

But really, listen to the mods and can it.

I stand by my comment.

As you do with the apostate institution, so what of your declared stand? Really, it is nothing in and off itself.

Wonderful. It seemed as if your reply was directed to me.

Whatever.

Neither am I, so I'm not sure the relevance of this closing comment.

Sorry, but I firmly believe that the scriptures declare you are.

Your words have shown that you hold to an apostate doctrine, one that has mixed the pure word of God with the things of fallen men.

And this is extremely relevant, inthat with this light concerning your speaking, the saints can gain a clearer view of the erroneous content in your posts.

The scriptures tell us to have understanding regarding that which is not of God, that which is against God, and what you speak, I know to be exactly this.

For to long now, members of the body have not contended for the truth even within ourselves. We have allowed ourselves to be duped into a "live and let live" attitude regarding our walk with the Lord. We seem to have no problem allowing the leaven to somehow find its way into the fine flour of our new life. And the body needs to recognize this and reject it, so that the Lord will have a way to accomplish His building of the Church.

He will not build with a mixture.

OC, I think it crucial that the saints know that what you present is simply unacceptable to God.

Nor am I certain of the outcome you would hope for with the word parsing here. We are co-laborers with Christ.

In one sense I absolutely agree, but in another sense we are certainly not.

What makes two person's "co-laborers" in anything?

The uniform worn? The words they speak? The things they do? How similar their work looks?

No. For as we can know from the world, people can work together yet have differing motivations and thus differing goals.

Or in God's eyes and terminology, it the unseen content of the heart that counts, and not the outward appearance.

Consider this OC, if one day a beautiful angel appeared at you side and spoke words of encouragement to you, and even "worked" with you, would you be convinced that this angel was from God and not Satan himself?

How would you know?

Only by knowing the inward content, for Satan cannot change who he really is inside.


And this is where you have left the Lord, and thus left me........ when you picked up something that is not of Him, something of men and not of God.

You know, your very words.... "We are co-laborers with Christ."...... condemn you. They expose you as not even having any basic understanding of the matter of oneness.

I belong to no "institute" nor "institution."

Unfortunately, as true as these words are in reality, for I firmley believe that you do belong to Christ only, in the vanity of the old man you still cling to the old ways, and s such belong in your earthly living and being to the institute of the old ways.

You are what you eat.

At one point you, like all born again of the Spirit, ate only Christ and was saved in His life. But at some point in your life you allowed yourself to be drawn into, and thus away from, the simplicity of this first love. And now you don't eat Christ anymore, you eat the corrupt fruit of men, and thus expression this corruption.

You are what you eat.

This divine principle is found at the beginning of God's word and at the end of God's word, and is a principle that is constantly revealed througout.

I belong to the Body of Christ, which is not only spiritual, but manifest (as if that distinction even exists).

This is a phrase that is easy to use, but not so easy to understand in its reality.

What is "the Body of Christ"?

Is it already formed, but missing a leg and an arm until certain members are saved? Or is it a full and complete body that a saved person is simply brought into and thus in some mystical way enlarges?

What is the reality of the statement "I belong to the body of Christ"?

Christ is in the heavens, seated on a throne; are you in the heavens seated on a throne then?

But Christ is also here on this earth, in the regenerated spirit of every believer; so are you therefore with this Christ in the spirit of evey believer?

Is Christ divided? Yet, here we are, listening to you utter the words "I belong to Christ" on the one hand, and on the other, "I belong to the Orthodox Church" on the other.

The inconsistency is most obvious, althought God's word is clear that Christ is not divided,......... and therefore, we come to the need of men to reason away any seeming inconsistency,....... and so false doctrine is contrived, that the inconsistency may be explained and justified.

And this is why God calls it wickedness, and why He hates it.

Your non-church Christianity is not de facto more spiritual or accurate than my identifiable church.

What is this,..... "your Church,.... "my Church"....... since when do either of us have a Church.

You put words in the Spirit's mouth OC.

It is not a matter of which Church, for the Body which is the Church, is not separated. What you are speaking of is my doctrine versus your doctrine, my belief versus your belief.

You, and all man-made religions on a whole struggle with this lie, calling themselves "the Church of this" or "the Church of that"....... denominating themselves according to a doctrine or belief, and worst of all, in doing so, denying the Christ they claim to love and serve.

You just declared "We are co-laborers with Christ."...... and yet here in your above words you attempt to seperated us.

And I fully understand why OC,...... it is because the reality of being a "co-laborer" with Christ and thus with each other, is tha first we must be only "in Christ", and not in a false testimony of Christ.


The true statement of a Christian laborer is...... "I am in Christ as you are in Christ, and thus we labor together with Christ."



I'll end this here so that I won't give feed your intentions regarding the mods.

But I'll pick it up below as there is much error to expose.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

Good works through faith in Christ take about as much effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. "Clean the cup from the inside and the outside will become clean as well." When Jesus cleans our hearts and replaces them with his love and forgiveness then "out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." (Jesus of Nazareth)

 

[cj]

SO lets continue shall we.....

I belong to no "institute" nor "institution." I belong to the Body of Christ, which is not only spiritual, but manifest (as if that distinction even exists). Your non-church Christianity is not de facto more spiritual or accurate than my identifiable church.

You have never asked me what my understanding of the Body is.

You have never asked me how I meet with other believers, as per Paul's clear instructions that believers should not forsake the gathering together of ourselves.

And yet, here you go, assuming you have this understanding, even going as far as giving it the title "Your non-church Christianity".

Was that you allowing the Spirit to speak through you OC?

I am well acquainted with the Orthodox institution OC, well acquainted with the Roman institution, so I know a little. And what I don't know, when confronted with it I go and find out. And it is from this that I try to speak.

But you, you think it perfectly acceptable to speak out of ignorance.

I might add that you have a practice of creating scenarios and religious distinctives which do not exist (no one prays 'to' pictures). This is known as making strawmen arguments, and it is very tedious.

Unfortunately, when the layman is asked the answer given is exactly that, they are praying to the saint represented in the picture (or statue).

I can take you to a building right now where you will find believers throwing money in a small pond at the feet of a statue of Mary, and praying to her. And if we wait long enough we will see others coming with containers and dipping water out of the same pond, to take home and use in some way concerning a blessing or healing, or just to say that they have holy water from the pond at the feet of Mary.

I've witnessed on countless occasions believers, living the most sinful of lives, crossing themselves as they drive past a building, or hanging a cross and rosary on the rear-view mirror of their car, one in which all sorts of sin takes place. And let us not forget the gold crosses worn as many go about their partying.

Today, there is a statue of an apostle, at the feet of which flowers are placed everyday by believers. And another building that was specifically designed with many columns at the entrance, on which are various icons of Mary, and under which are the names of those who gave the most money to the building fund.


It stinks OC,..... and it is perpetuated by those at the head, those who when confronted with the ignorant ways and thoughts of the many they lead, quickly put up a defense of "Oh, what you see is not really what it is."

I watched a documentary some months ago, one about the pilgramage of believers to various shrines of the saints. No one that I heard interviewed showed any clear understanding of the reality of what they were doing. All they knew was that they could get "help" from whatever saint the particular shrine was for, and so they were doing it so as to get help from the particular saint.

This is ungodly worship, and it is perpetuated and even encouraged by the leadership of these apostate institutions.


Accuse me of whatever you want, even suggest the overused "strawman" argumenet, it matters not. The truth is the truth, there is nothing to praying in front of a picture, other than the possibility of misleading someone who see you doing it.

And, in point of fact, your argument did go askew- as in wrong.

Easy to say, much more difficult to show.

Any fool can declare something "wrong" OC.

You have now again separated faith and action, by implying that no acion is required.

No, I've separated nothing, because believers must believe, we must turn with an open heart.

What I am seperating is the false thought that simply doing something is the same as doing it in faith.

Remember, it is God who gives the growth.

Here is a direct, unflinching question: are you denying the scriptural truth of the epistle of James? Do you deny any part of his letter?
Please do not contextualize, a yes or no will be sufficient.

Away with you cleverness OC, such as we see with the serpent in Genesis.

Do you really think such a common attempt would work.

All scripture OC, all of it, according to scripture itself, IS GOD BREATHED.

And I believe what the scripture says.

Now you answer me oh might one of the Orthodox kind........ as David wrote his psalms, was he fully aware of the Mystery hidden within his words,.... words that are considered scripture?

And more, if David wasn't aware of this truth in his writings, doesn't this fact tell us something of David in His humanity?

Again...... away with you cleverness, and read again what I said, with an honest heart if you are so inclined......

"As for the Jews,.... they know salvation under the law.

As for the Church fathers,...... you are way to general.

As for James,.... scriptures show us that he struggled with His Jewish heritage, and as such, see the above to better understand James in his humanity."

If you think that we are unable to see the fallen humanity of each man that God used to give us His one word, while at the same time being able to clearly see the pure divine truth of God in His word, then you are truly blind and have no relationship with the Spirit.

Saved yes, but no relationship outside of that.

Vainly argumentative. Talk is cheap. Without a demonstration of the truth of Christ's words, what one has is a demonstration of the falsehood of Christ's words. Words are not passive, they are active. If I claim to have the truth, yet sin, I am shown to be a liar.

"A demonstration of the truth of Christ's words".......... I take it you are perfected in truth then, and thus can honestly demonstrate the truth of Christ's words at all times and in all things?

Or, if not, then in your own words you are nothing more than a liar.

Your words tell us that you have little understanding of Christ's truth, and this because you have little understanding of God's word. And ths two can never be seperated.

"Talk" OC, is sometimes all God leaves us with. No arms, no legs, no endurance, no hope, no love, no nothing........ only a shallow cry from a completely defeated heart.

But how our Lord longs to hear this cry, for it is at this point that He knows He can meet us and fill up an emptied vessel.

I have no confidence in what I do, I just trust the Lord to keep me.

And even my trust this trust I know is not of me.

God Himself declared that when I am weak He is strong. Yet how Christianlty tries to encourage believers to be strong.

Be weak saints, not strong. This is the only way of the Lord, Him who when faced with persecution, even that which brought His death, said nothing and did nothing to stop it, although He could have.

We don't defeat the enemy of God by our actions, he is defeated in our death, for when we die in the old man, there is no more ground for Satan to occupy.

This is the truth of God regarding our walk in His Son, and with His Son, on this earth.

This isn't rocket science, nor is it a deeply hidden mystery.

Yet, when we look at the pages and pages of doctrine, and traditions, and forms of the apostate institutions, one is lead to believe that it is "rocket science", even told it is, by those who would take it upon themselves to hide the word of God from the "less educated".

This is wickedness.


I'll continue in a post below.


In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

Rule 13 - Posting Etiquette:
Please keep the posts down to a respectable length. You stand a better chance of getting your point across. People may not want to read them if they are too long...

Gee, maybe if it's large enough people might take notice. Once in a while isn't bad but it's happenning way too often.

God does not give out "brownie points" for extra long posts. :-D

 

[cj]

Rule 13 - Posting Etiquette:
Please keep the posts down to a respectable length. You stand a better chance of getting your point across. People may not want to read them if they are too long...

Gee, maybe if it's large enough people might take notice. Once in a while isn't bad but it's happenning way too often.

God does not give out "brownie points" for extra long posts. :-D

Oh, was that long? :

I'll split the post.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

And so we continue steadfastly.......

And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

True religion is this: keeping oneself unspotted by the world (holiness), and visiting widows and orphans in their distress (faith in action).

Above are examples of how the gospel is perceived by seeing and by hearing. Though there is one gospel message, there are various ways to preach it, and there various ways to receive it.

Well, again, it is you, not I, who divides the Gospel with your words. For God's economy is just one economy, with all things working together in the oneness of this economy.

John 17 tells us that the world "perceives" that the Father sent the Son, which is the beginning sense of the full gospel message, through the oneness of the believers, being the same as the oneness of the Father with the Son.

You want to get to the matters of holiness and righteousness expressed outwardly in the living of believers, but do not want to first seek the oneness that is the foundation of our holiness and righteousness.

The false doctrine that you preach is "Believe in Christ and then live what you believe to be a holy and righteous life, one that can be seen by what you believe are what God calls good works."

This is a lie, for its foundation is not Christ, it is not the oneness of God.

The false doctrine that you hold to, declares that the way of the saints is to build side by side,.... but it is not, as scripture tells us that the way of God is to build layer upon layer.

What good would it have served to have built the wall around Jerusalem in a manner where one section went up quickly while another lagged behind?

What good does it serve to have your section of the wall finished while behind you is a gapping hole through which the enemy can come into your midst?

And yet, you confidently declare that you are "of" the Body.

Surely you are, but just as surely you are not "in" the work of the Body, for the "work" is the pure expression of the oneness of the Head.

So you see human interaction as being ancilliar and unnecessary to the building of the Kingdom.

I remind you of the term "strawman"; OC, God became a man, "common sense" alone would tell us that He must have something up His sleeve regarding men and His purpose,...... but lets move on by allowing scripture to answer,

3 John  1 : 2, "Beloved, concerning all things I wish that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers."

What a wonderful statement, by one who had reached an age and thus had much experience from which to speak.

John here was telling the saints to not become entangled in religious endeavors, but just to prosper and be in good health even as our soul prospers.

What freedom we can see in these words, what wonderful freedom. The freedom that is only to be found in Christ.

And it is important to note that John was writing this epistle as a response to the corruption that had become rampant in the body, the corruption of ambition that leads us back into the bondage of religion.

3 John  1 : 9, "I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not receive us."

This is against the words of the Lord in Matt. 20:25-27 and 23:8-11, which keep all His believers on the same level, that of brothers. In 2 John 9 the Cerinthian Gnostics took the lead to advance in doctrine beyond the teaching concerning Christ. Here in 3 John 9 is one who was under the influence of Gnostic heretical doctrine and loved to be first in the church. The former was a matter of intellectual arrogance; the latter, of self-exaltation in one's actions. These two evils are sharp weapons used by God's enemy, Satan, to execute his evil plot against God's economy. One damages the believers' faith in the divine reality; the other frustrates the believers' work in God's move.

Lets read again what you said in the post above and my response to it, so that we may better understand why what you said above is meaning smoke....

OC said...... "The gospel is not just a bunch of big ideas- it is essentially interpersonal. To bring gospel truth, one must first build a bridge of trust and credibility with they who are receiving the truth. And a big cargo of truth requires a sturdy bridge."

And CJ responded....... "This is not true. God can use a donkey to deliver His truth.

Only puffed-up men believe that they in some way must first build something."


See OC, Christ is the bridge, and He is already built. But you preach in a way that supports certain men taking the lead to attain to something, trust and credibility.

What of man is trustworthy and credible?

Nothing.

Was Job not trustworthy and credible before men, yet, God allowed Job to fall in the eyes of men.

And why? So that He could gain more of Himself in Job.

You and yours try to force the ways of men on God. This is what you seek to do.

God's divine desire is to gain His increase in and through men, this is the center of the revelation contained in His word.

But He does not accomplish this by the efforts of men, all that He requires of men is that they believe and then open themselves to Him growing in each one of us.

When this takes place, and only when this has taken place, is God expressed in and through men, as He desires.

Why then does Paul bother to become a Jew to reach a Jew? Why does he become a Gentile so as to reach a Gentiel? Why does God become enfleshed and speak to man?

You are naive if you think that Paul "became" a Jew again. Or even a Gentile.

Paul was absolutely one with the Lord, and "becoming" a Jew or a Gentile would have been a downward step, a backward step for Paul, and thus also a loss for the Lord in His economy.

Paul didn't "become" a Jew in the sense you would have us believe,..... Paul simply counted what Jews did as nothing, and therefore could participate in all things (according to the leading of the Spirit) as it impacted the salvation of the lost.

God's enfleshment is another story......

I guess you would render 'come let us reason together' as 'let me tell ya how it is.'

And I'll stop here for the same reason I did in the post before.

But look for the pick-up to follow, for the lack of understanding you show above by you comment concerning Paul crys out for enlightenment.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Good works through faith in Christ take about as much effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. "Clean the cup from the inside and the outside will become clean as well." When Jesus cleans our hearts and replaces them with his love and forgiveness then "out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." (Jesus of Nazareth)

Heidi, how I love you for your words above. How simple and sweet they are, for be thankful, and live a life that manifests this thankfulness to..... Someone,....... is the heart of a Christian's walk.


The Lord tells us that it is to love Him with the first love that is what He desires.


Revelation  2 : 4, "But I have one thing against you, that you have left your first love."

As the Body of Christ (Eph. 1:23), the church is a matter of life; as the new man (Eph. 2:15), it is a matter of the person of Christ; and as the bride of Christ (John 3:29), it is a matter of love. The first Epistle to the Ephesians tells us that for the church life we need to be strengthened into our inner man that Christ may make His home in our hearts, that we, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that we may be filled unto all the fullness of God (Eph. 3:16-19); and it is for the church life that grace is with all those who love the Lord Jesus (Eph. 6:24). Now this second epistle to the Ephesians reveals that the degradation of the church begins with our leaving the first love toward the Lord. Nothing but love can keep us in a proper relationship with the Lord. The church in Ephesus had good works, labored for the Lord, endured suffering, and tried the false apostles (vv. 2-3), but she left her first love toward the Lord. The leaving of the first love is the source of all the degradation in the succeeding stages of the church.



How easy it is to become involved in "working" for the Lord and in this "working" actually leave our first/best love for Him.

It is what Christianity has done.


Note that the Lord's speaking begins with this word concerning our leaving our first love, and ends with His word to the Church in Laodicea concerning their pride.

For when we leave our first love, we simply become proud of what we think we have become.


In love,
cj