Lets continue,... we were speaking about Paul "becoming" a Jew....
Orthodox Christian said:
So you see human interaction as being ancilliar and unnecessary to the building of the Kingdom. Why then does Paul bother to become a Jew to reach a Jew? Why does he become a Gentile so as to reach a Gentiel? Why does God become enfleshed and speak to man?
I guess you would render 'come let us reason together' as 'let me tell ya how it is.'
As I said in the post above, Paul did not "become" a Jew again. What is meant is that He had no problem participating/limiting himself in the manner of the Jew in order that he might reach some for the Lord's sake.
Tell me OC,.... which Jew would preach Christ Jesus? And yet you want us to think that Paul "became" a Jew.
Let us look at the scripture that speaks to an example of this,
Galatians  2 : 3, "But not even Titus, who was with me, though he is a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised;"
Notes from the Recovery Version bible - Judaism was built upon the God-given law with its three pillars: circumcision, the Sabbath, and the holy dietary regulations. All three were ordained by God (Gen. 17:9-14; Exo. 20:8-11; Lev. 11) as shadows of things to come (Col. 2:16-17). Circumcision was a shadow of the crucifixion of Christ in its putting off of the flesh, as signified in baptism (Col. 2:11-12). The Sabbath was a type of Christ as the rest for His people (Matt. 11:28-30). The holy diet symbolized persons who are clean and persons who are unclean, those whom God's holy people should contact and those they should not contact (Acts 10:11-16, 34-35). Once Christ had come, all these shadows should have been terminated. Hence, the observance of the Sabbath was abolished by the Lord Jesus in His ministry (Matt. 12:1-12), the holy dietary regulations were annulled by the Spirit in Peter's ministry (Acts 10:9-20), and circumcision was counted as nothing in the revelation received by Paul in his ministry (5:6; 6:15). Furthermore, the law, the base of Judaism, has been terminated and replaced by Christ (Rom. 10:4; Gal. 2:16). Thus, Judaism in its entirety is finished.
If Paul understood this, that Judaism in its entirety was finished, what was the reality of his saying that he became something that he could not have become, seeing that Christ had ended it?
Regarding the "enfleshment" of God,.... the bible tells us that God became man so that man could become God in life and in nature, but not in the Godhead. Man will never be an object of worship.
But be clear in this,...... God in His "enfleshment" did not become a man of sin, for he only took on the likeness of the flesh and not the indwelling sin of the flesh.
Yet, I appreciate your drawing a similarity between the two. I'll consider it before the Lord some more.
Orthodox Christian said:
It is nothing of the sort, nor do I hold to this belief.
Tell us why?
Orthodox Christian said:
John 1:7
The same (John) came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
2 Cor 9:11
Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
Rom 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
He acts in, through, around, and in spite of.
Yes He does,.... and continues even with those who don't believe.
Did you notice that I said "He does not.... WANT.... to act through us but with us."?
But about the scripture examples you gave....
1st example - John the Baptist was not born-again of the Spirit. Big difference between a born-again believer and JB, even Jesus said this.
2nd example - Notice that we must "be enriched" first; and 1 Corinthians tells us that to be enriched is to be filled with Christ in our being. Therefore, "through us" really means through the Christ in us.
3rd example - A more precise and clear translation of Romans 11:11 says, "Romans  11 : 11,
"I say then, Have they stumbled so as to fall? Absolutely not! But
by their misstep salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy."
Therefore, its not "through" anything the Jews have done (for who would boast in their stumbling), but simply as a result of what God has allowed/did.
Your presentation of scripture is very weak OC.
Orthodox Christian said:
Well, that in fact is a suggestion.
Yeh, I know,.... stomp on me.
Orthodox Christian said:
What you leave out of your response above is the reality that it is metaoinia- to rethink- of which I speak. God sets the environment, man makes his decision. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision. He sets before us life and death and says "chose life." Yet we still are allowed to chose. And the reward of right choice is self-contained.
Yet isn't it wonderful that even our decision is in His power?
Orthodox Christian said:
And, I repeat, it is He who does the knocking. Those who decide to take over and do it for Him end up in Inquisitions, drownings of Anabaptists, pogroms against Jews, and so on. Add to that obvious list the very subtle and small-scale de-horsings attempted by self-appointed prophets daily.
Absolutely. But we can know the source of it all can't we, by the fruit.
Out of what tree did the above you describe come?
As for me, maybe just an Ananias, not a self-appointed anything, just a simple member of the body, as you are.
Orthodox Christian said:
I would answer that the Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth. Discernment is given of and by God. Nonetheless, blind spots remain in every believer.
Just as Paul needed simple Ananias, God has ordained the "blind spots" so that we come to see how much we need one another.
I need you OC, and I'm not to proud to declare this.
But the "you" that I need is the Christ-you, the "you" that is one with Christ. And this "you" has nothing to do with any man-made religion, this "you" is simple the expression of the life you received at regeneration, lived out through the virtues of transformed humanity.
No icons, no candles, no incense, to forms and traditions in the manner of men, just you in Christ as it was in the beginning.
And this is the simplicity that believers have allowed the God's enemy to come in and steal.
Our oneness is just Christ in us, our hope of glory.
In love,
cj
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