What is real Faith, by Martin Luther

[glorydaz]

Re: Standing on the promises of God..

I actually enjoy reading commentary from people (even Luther etc) although we must realize that it's just that.. the real deal comes from the word of God.. and obviously some men preach with an agenda so we to be extra careful with embracing the words of men rather than the word of God.

Yes, those hidden agendas are dangerous, which is why we must always compare what we hear with Scripture.

Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[glorydaz]

Was I implying that? I meant to fanatically state it. So let me try it again.

God Gives US FAITH. God Gives of the FAITH, The very faith we need to have a relationship with him.

There. That's better.

God doesn't give His saving faith until He sees our faith in Him.

I like the way Spurgeon puts it...since we're sharing what those of old taught.

I. First, for the EXPOSITION. What is faith?
The old writers, who are by far the most sensible—for you will notice that the books that were written about two hundred years ago, by the old Puritans, have more sense in one line than there is in a page of our new books, and more in a page than there is in a whole volume of our modern divinity—the old writers tell you, that faith is made up of three things: first knowledge, then assent, and then what they call affiance, or the laying hold of the knowledge to which we give assent, and making it our own by trusting in it.

Notice... it's in agreement with the verse Eventide posted.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and [/b]were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed[/b] that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: Standing on the promises of God..

Those who understood Martin then and now, know exactly what he means with his every word of describing the faith as he did. Those who don't, don't. That's not to say they can't, yet they will not take the advise of Martin who is clearly pointing to God. Instead they will fumble over Martins words, argue with it, maybe dismiss it, and that's odd, since he's basically saying where to go to find what he is describing and has even agreed with you Eventide, not to simply take his word for it.

He would be correct that we not just take his word for it. When you put up someone's words, they are open for discussion. How else can the Holy Spirit expound on what's been said? Each of us, who have the Holy Spirit guiding us, are then able to point to verses He reveals to us. That's how we grow. Not just taking what any one man says and calling it gospel, it must actually be the gospel before we have Truth.

 

[Danus]

God doesn't give His saving faith until He sees our faith in Him.

I like the way Spurgeon puts it...since we're sharing what those of old taught.



Notice... it's in agreement with the verse Eventide posted.

I can't quite agree with your first statement, but It might be a misunderstanding of terms. However, I like you quote from Charles Spurgeon.

What you have there comes from one of his famous sermons about faith, which is far longer than the one little spec you posted here. You do his words little justice to the man himself, and all he was trying to say.

Because, also in his well known sermon he says things like "2. But the next argument is, faith is the stooping grace, and nothing can make a man stoop without faith. Now, unless man does stoop, his sacrifice cannot be accepted."

What does he mean by "stoop"? Well, it's a Verb in this sense and it means to bend one's head or body forward and downward: "he stooped down.", but he's using it to suggest giving up, or giving over to the will of God.

"nothing can make a man stoop without faith" implies that a man without faith can not stoop or give himself over. But it can also simply mean a man can not stoop unless he has faith...it still does not say where the faith comes from. Hopefully the next part might help shed more light.

He entwines this sermon on faith with the story of Cain and Able and sacfrfice, But here is the kicker, the crest of his Crescendo, and you will no doubt love the read all the way down to the part I've highlighted .

"2. But a man may know a thing, and yet not have faith. I may know a thing, and yet not believe it. Therefore assent must go with faith: that is to say, what we know we must also agree unto, as being most certainly the verity of God. Now, in order to faith, it is necessary that I should not only read the Scriptures and understand them, but that I should receive them in my soul as being the very truth of the living God, and I should devoutly with my whole heart receive the whole of the Scripture as being inspired of the Most High, and the whole of the doctrine which he requires me to believe to my salvation. You are not allowed to halve the Scriptures, and to believe what you please; you are not allowed to believe the Scripture with a half-heartedness, for if you do this wilfully, you have not the faith which looks alone to Christ. True faith gives its full assent to the Scriptures; it takes a page and says, "No matter what is in the page, I believe it;" it turns over the next chapter ands says, "Herein are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable do wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their destruction; but hard though it be, I believe it." It sees the Trinity; it cannot understand the Trinity in Unity, but it believes it. It sees an atoning sacrifice; there is something difficult in the thought, but it believes it; and whatever it be which it sees in revelation, it devoutly puts its lips to the book, and says, "I love it all; I give my full, free and hearty assent to every word of it, whether it be the threatening or the promise, the proverb, the precept, or the blessing. I believe that since it is all the Word of God it is all most assuredly true." Whosoever would be saved must know the Scriptures, and must give full assent unto them.
3. But a man may have all this, and yet not possess true faith; for the chief part of faith lies in the last head, namely, in an affiance to the truth; not the believing it merely,"

"affiance" betroth - engage...the giving over of ones self as a woman might be to a man in this way of love, so are we to God and that ....THAT IS FAITH. As Charles Spurgeon put's it "for the chief part of faith lies in the last head, namely, in an affiance to the truth." The giving over of ones self completely to the truth, then you have faith and not before. You can not simply say "I believe" That is not enough, and simply saying that comes from man, but true faith comes from God.

Can you pray for faith? can you request faith from God? Sure, you can, and one should because that's the only way one is going to get it and when one does, they become aware of what faith is, regardless if they knew they where asking for it at the time, or like me totally unaware they'd ask for faith when they prayed in this manner of affiance for the first time. ;) better to give up trying to be a Christian and let God make you a Christian, I say.

here is the link to a copy of this sermon.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0107.htm

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: Standing on the promises of God..

He would be correct that we not just take his word for it. When you put up someone's words, they are open for discussion. How else can the Holy Spirit expound on what's been said? Each of us, who have the Holy Spirit guiding us, are then able to point to verses He reveals to us. That's how we grow. Not just taking what any one man says and calling it gospel, it must actually be the gospel before we have Truth.

AMEN!!!

 

[Mike]

Some posts were deleted from this thread. Please tone down the accusations and carry a conversation that does not get personal.

Thank you.

 

[glorydaz]

I can't quite agree with your first statement, but It might be a misunderstanding of terms. However, I like you quote from Charles Spurgeon.

What you have there comes from one of his famous sermons about faith, which is far longer than the one little spec you posted here. You do his words little justice to the man himself, and all he was trying to say.

Because, also in his well known sermon he says things like "2. But the next argument is, faith is the stooping grace, and nothing can make a man stoop without faith. Now, unless man does stoop, his sacrifice cannot be accepted."

What does he mean by "stoop"? Well, it's a Verb in this sense and it means to bend one's head or body forward and downward: "he stooped down.", but he's using it to suggest giving up, or giving over to the will of God.

"nothing can make a man stoop without faith" implies that a man without faith can not stoop or give himself over. But it can also simply mean a man can not stoop unless he has faith...it still does not say where the faith comes from. Hopefully the next part might help shed more light.

He entwines this sermon on faith with the story of Cain and Able and sacfrfice, But here is the kicker, the crest of his Crescendo, and you will no doubt love the read all the way down to the part I've highlighted .

We really don't need Spurgeon to tell us where faith comes from, because the Bible does that very well. I credited him with the quote because I hadn't thought to use the word "assent" before. One can interpret his words wrongly just as many do the Bible. But, I did read the whole thing and don't see anything in it to disagree with. I didn't post it all because I didn't feel it was relevant to this conversation, since the question seems to be the initial saving faith. The "stooping" speaks to our repentance after we believe. Naturally, when faced with the glory of our Saviour, man will fall on His face as John did in Revelation. If we didn't believe He was who He claimed then we wouldn't be bowing to Him at all....that's our faith in Him.

I'm not sure what you see from what I did post of Spurgeon, but I see man's having to assent. That's a choice all will have when they hear the Gospel message. They can choose to turn away or they are persuaded and "assent" to the message. ...to "stoop," even, is something man must do himself. God doesn't shove man's head down in submission. God doesn't force man to look, either. I actually love his analogy of a child in a burning building. He looks down and see's a guy standing there telling him to jump. He must have faith the man will catch him. We must have faith enough to jump before the man can save us. Assenting, btw, is something man has to do. God will not do that for him. That is man's faith in God, and it has to come from within himself.

 

[Danus]

We really don't need Spurgeon to tell us where faith comes from, because the Bible does that very well. I credited him with the quote because I hadn't thought to use the word "assent" before. One can interpret his words wrongly just as many do the Bible. But, I did read the whole thing and don't see anything in it to disagree with. I didn't post it all because I didn't feel it was relevant to this conversation, since the question seems to be the initial saving faith. The "stooping" speaks to our repentance after we believe. Naturally, when faced with the glory of our Saviour, man will fall on His face as John did in Revelation. If we didn't believe He was who He claimed then we wouldn't be bowing to Him at all....that's our faith in Him.

I'm not sure what you see from what I did post of Spurgeon, but I see man's having to assent. That's a choice all will have when they hear the Gospel message. They can choose to turn away or they are persuaded and "assent" to the message. ...to "stoop," even, is something man must do himself. God doesn't shove man's head down in submission. God doesn't force man to look, either. I actually love his analogy of a child in a burning building. He looks down and see's a guy standing there telling him to jump. He must have faith the man will catch him. We must have faith enough to jump before the man can save us. Assenting, btw, is something man has to do. God will not do that for him. That is man's faith in God, and it has to come from within himself.

Ok. Well I don't see that man's faith in God comes from man. I don't really have a problem with you thinking it does, but be careful speaking for others.

I think you did a great job posting Spurgeon. I like and respect him also, but your intent was to say, or imply that Spurgeon believes that faith comes from man. ...I think, and if your doing that I decided to show you where in his sermon...that you quoted , it could be seen from another angle.

I'm I being unfair?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Ok. Well I don't see that man's faith in God comes from man. I don't really have a problem with you thinking it does, but be careful speaking for others.

I think you did a great job posting Spurgeon. I like and respect him also, but your intent was to say, or imply that Spurgeon believes that faith comes from man. ...I think, and if your doing that I decided to show you where in his sermon...that you quoted , it could be seen from another angle.

I'm I being unfair?

You may or may not be fair but, you certainly are wrong...

 

[Danus]

You may or may not be fair but, you certainly are wrong...

I guess this is the part where I say; "NO your wrong!" ...and then we get deleted.

Come one Grubal. I asked you questions about Luther and his words and you did not engage it.

Why does it bother you that God might choose to save someone without any merit on their part other than the fact that he loves them, and he sees that they have had enough of themselves?

Why does that bother you so much?

Look at Paul. he did not have any ounce of faith in Christ before he meet Christ on the road to Damascus. Christ reached out to Paul, not the other way around.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I guess this is the part where I say; "NO your wrong!" ...and then we get deleted.

Come one Grubal. I asked you questions about Luther and his words and you did not engage it.

Why does it bother you that God might choose to save someone without any merit on their part other than the fact that he loves them, and he sees that they have had enough of themselves?

Why does that bother you so much?

Look at Paul. he did not have any ounce of faith in Christ before he meet Christ on the road to Damascus. Christ reached out to Paul, not the other way around.

God reaches out to "ALL" of humanity through His word (the Bible) and through the finished work of Christ on the cross...Your angle (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that God, choose in whom He would save before the foundation of the world, and the rest were damned...That's not the case (and I'm putting that lightly) Christ came to shed His blood for the sins of ALL humanity...However, not ALL will receive God's gift, through putting their faith in Christ and Him alone for their salvation...That's why you and I defer...

 

[glorydaz]

Ok. Well I don't see that man's faith in God comes from man. I don't really have a problem with you thinking it does, but be careful speaking for others.

I think you did a great job posting Spurgeon. I like and respect him also, but your intent was to say, or imply that Spurgeon believes that faith comes from man. ...I think, and if your doing that I decided to show you where in his sermon...that you quoted , it could be seen from another angle.

I'm I being unfair?

Not at all. So how do you see the word "assent". We have no say when we assent to something?

 

[Danus]

God reaches out to "ALL" of humanity through His word (the Bible) and through the finished work of Christ on the cross...Your angle (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that God, choose in whom He would save before the foundation of the world, and the rest were damned...That's not the case (and I'm putting that lightly) Christ came to shed His blood for the sins of ALL humanity...However, not ALL will receive God's gift, through putting their faith in Christ and Him alone for their salvation...That's why you and I defer...

My angle? It's not mine. But "God, chooses whom He will save before the foundation of the world...That's it. You added; " all others are damned." those are your added words, then you agreed that not everyone is saved.

I'm not damning people. I, like you and like God, wish for all to be saved, but I like you and God, know that not all are saved, BUT only God knows who those are. Fair? We are all on the same page brother.....But there is a gap isn't there.

If God wants all to be saved then why doesn't he save all? i think that's your your question, and if it is, I don't blame you one bit. It's a darn good question.

You can do one of a few things to reconcile this...you can blame man and say; "well, chump don't want to be saved, chump don't get saved. ...I know you don't like my wording, but it's no different, beside it's funny.

Or there could be more that God needs from us before we can be saved by simply saying I believe because I want to believe. There could be a final hour. A time when we are absolutely ready to in fact be saved....and not before.

 

[Danus]

Not at all. So how do you see the word "assent". We have no say when we assent to something?

Eh? Do you really want to dissect Spurgeon? What can we think of bigger in terms of faith?

 

[glorydaz]

I guess this is the part where I say; "NO your wrong!" ...and then we get deleted.

It's a mystery to me. I didn't see any disrespect going on...especially on this thread.

I thought we were all on our best behavior. In fact, I almost considered giving out some...

 

[glorydaz]

Eh? Do you really want to dissect Spurgeon? What can we think of bigger in terms of faith?

I certainly don't want to dissect anyone. I agreed with the word so I posted it, and gave him credit. Surely there's no fault with that? With all due respect, of course.

 

[Danus]

I certainly don't want to dissect anyone. I agreed with the word so I posted it, and gave him credit. Surely there's no fault with that? With all due respect, of course.

Not at all. I agreed with it also and posted more of the same sermon.

 

[glorydaz]

My angle? It's not mine. But "God, chooses whom He will save before the foundation of the world...That's it. You added; " all others are damned." those are your added words, then you agreed that not everyone is saved.

If you're speaking of Eph. 1, "chosen before the foundation of the world", I believe you have that wrong.

Rather than derail this thread, I'll start another that will address this issue.

 

[Danus]

I certainly don't want to dissect anyone. I agreed with the word so I posted it, and gave him credit. Surely there's no fault with that? With all due respect, of course.

Not at all. I agreed with it also and posted more of the same sermon.

 

[reba]

Cool.

It's like a 500 year old bottle of Chablis.

What's really neat about it, is being able to relate to it, and the fact that this man's words are so old to us, yet he struggled with the same things we do, and this is his opinion from his many years of reading and studying the same book we have today, and it's as true to us as it was to him. It's a testament to the endurance of God's never ending truth. It strengthens my hope for the lost and aids to comfort me in the midst of my own salvation.

If Luther where alive today, he'd have posted this here. So I thought it fitting to honor him as well since he has something to say on the many topics being discussed. I'm hoping it might also inspire some to learn more about his life, and how God used him in his day.

Clearly God wants us to learn from each other, if we are to say that he does anything through us at all. He surly did with Martin Luther, and many others.

Tis a good thing to have 'church fathers" words written down... We can see how different and how much the same things are.. Todays teachers have videos, easy to print books good grief we have facebook. Listened to much of Bob Mumford on cassets! When we can see/hear the teacher's, new and old , love for the Lord and a respect for His Word how blessed we are today...