What is sin?

[Stone-yarder]

Well?

From my vantage point, sin does not really exist. Notice how the scriptures describe sin as "darkness". Darkness does not exist. In fact, all darkness is, is a word to describe a lack of light.

Sin is simply the rejection of the love of God, nothing more. It does not exist. God did not create it.[/QUOTE

You have that backwards, Sin is the result of man rejecting God. Read Genesis...

 

[Mitspa]

One could put it this way, if sin is darkness and God is Light?
Then if one rejects the Light they will be made subject to darkness. If God is light, and He is! What He says is light is light and what He calls darkness is darkness, If He calls that darkness sin, then it is sin.
If He says that He will punish those who love darkness then He is Light and who can disagree? If He says His Word is Light, and those who reject His Word are in darkness, then thay are in sin.

Either way, whatever you call it, God calls it sin, and He decides, because He is Light and there is no darkness In Him.

 

[childeye]

Genesis1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

We see that God created the heavens and the earth. In it's unfinished state, we see that it was "formless and empty" and "Darkness was over the surface of the deep".

God created light, and God saw that it was Good. Everything God created during creation is good, and when he was finished, he said that everything he created was "Very Good".

It's a different way of thinking... But as Christians we are called to think differently.

I realize God created light as pertains to a physical existence of photons. And yes it is good because it makes us able to see. But when I am describing the darkness of sin I am not refering to such a physical light. The physical light is just an analogy for the Spiritual Light which is God. Hence Paul says that God is Light. And so when Paul says to walk in the Light, he is saying to walk in that Eternal Spirit which has no beginning nor end which therefore is not created. He is not talking about walking in the sun.

 

[Mitspa]

I realize God created light as pertains to a physical existence of photons. And yes it is good because it makes us able to see. But when I am describing the darkness of sin I am not refering to such a physical light. The physical light is just an analogy for the Spiritual Light which is God. Hence Paul says that God is Light. And so when Paul says to walk in the Light, he is saying to walk in that Eternal Spirit which has no beginning nor end which therefore is not created. He is not talking about walking in the sun.

Good points childeye! Have you seen the eternal day? Because one needs to become as a child to see it.

 

[stovebolts]

I realize God created light as pertains to a physical existence of photons. And yes it is good because it makes us able to see. But when I am describing the darkness of sin I am not refering to such a physical light. The physical light is just an analogy for the Spiritual Light which is God. Hence Paul says that God is Light. And so when Paul says to walk in the Light, he is saying to walk in that Eternal Spirit which has no beginning nor end which therefore is not created. He is not talking about walking in the sun.

Im on my phone right now, but gen 1 isn't talking about photons either... those come a few days later. John 1 makes that pretty clear and if memory serves me right, I think Jesus affirms this in john 8 I think.... where Jesus says he is the light. Again, sorry I can't quote right now.

The book of John is about light and darkness... but people enjoy the darkness. Its about the way of Jesus, or our way. Situation after situation we see people choose light... or darkness.

 

[John 8:32]

No, darkness does not exist. Scientifically speaking, there is nothing to measure darkness. However, light has particles to measure and does exist. Darkness, therefore, is merely a term used to define an absense of light to varying degrees. God did not make darkness just like he did not make sin.

Funny, when I lock myself in a room with all the windows and doors shut and turn off the light, all I see is..... Nothing! That "Nothing" we call darkness and darkness can be experienced in ones life just as easily as light can be experienced.

When I don't eat for a day, I have nothing in my stomach.... I also experience this "nothingness" and generally it is not a friendly experience. So we see that nothing really is something and what can be measured is the effects of nothing when nothing exists. here is the conumdrum, if nothing exists, then nothing really is something...

How does this relate to sin?
John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
What we do or fail to do matters to God and we can be assured that when we do good deeds, it always brings relief through the darkness. Jesus even said,
Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Good job here StoveBolts, sometimes I wonder where some of these ideas come from.

There are two types of darkness, physical and spiritual:

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Mat_6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

By the way wonby1, you might enjoy this verse...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[stovebolts]

Good job here StoveBolts, sometimes I wonder where some of these ideas come from.

There are two types of darkness, physical and spiritual:

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Mat_6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

By the way wonby1, you might enjoy this verse...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

John 8,

We're tracking brother!

I didn't want to bring up Isa 45:7 because if people can't see what has already been written, they will have a harder time understanding how God is present in his absence. IE Isa 45:7. It is akin to handing one over to Satan. It is for their own good so that they would come to repentance. We see this theme over and over and it spurs from Deut 28 in regard to curses and blessings. The curses are not to punish, but a consequence to sin which result in a state of deprivation that leads the the acknowledgment of who God is and how we need him. Time over we see the children of Israel broken down till they cry out... and God always hears their crys. It is the same when one is handed over to Satan... God's still in control leading them to a better place... This is what God did with Job, God broke him down and drew him close. To whome has much, much will be expected. Darkness is the absence of goodness. Like the corners of the fields not being left for the poor and the hungry, it's what you don't do that leaves a void and creates darkness in the lives of others.

 

[Mitspa]

I am sure you allow your flesh to sin, but it is no longer you, but sin that dwells in you!

Do you not understand what I am trying to show others? The issue is not if we sin? The issue is how God has given us power over sin. But that power comes as we understand where sin dwells? "in the flesh" How do we overcome?
Not by power, nor by might but by My Spirit saith the Lord.

So Im not interested in debate for debates sake, I am interested in helping others be free from sin.
I am not here to confess, I confess to God alone, everybody with a brain and an honest heart, knows that all men sin. But that is not why God has me on this forum, the victory is not in mans weakness but in walking in REAL GRACE!

but there is a sinless part of every born-again believer. I am trying to AWAKE them to this understanding.

Awake to righteousness and sin not. When believers understand who they are in Christ, sin is no issue, it has lost its power over them.

Because they are walking in the spirit, and the lust of the flesh are put to death. This is the ONLY WAY! so why do all the folks who are so worried about sin, not teach the way of the spirit? Why do so many focus on the problem and not the solution? This is insane to me!

I wonder why it is so hard for some to just believe the bible as it is written? The law "ten commandments" produce sinful desires, sin becomes a deceiveing veil upon mans heart and mind but the law. which is the strength of sin. So the Lord warned the pharisee that the light they thought they had was really darkness. It is the same today? Those who think they are keeping the law of moses are really blinded and deceived by the sin that dwells in their flesh. They judge others by a standard they cannot keep. The is hypocricy, this is what the Lord came against at all times.

 

[childeye]

Im on my phone right now, but gen 1 isn't talking about photons either... those come a few days later. John 1 makes that pretty clear and if memory serves me right, I think Jesus affirms this in john 8 I think.... where Jesus says he is the light. Again, sorry I can't quote right now.

The book of John is about light and darkness... but people enjoy the darkness. Its about the way of Jesus, or our way. Situation after situation we see people choose light... or darkness.

I see where you are coming from Stovebolts. St. Augustine described the same passage as when he believes God created the good spirits and the bad spirits for His ultimate purpose. We therefore are left arguing semantics when in fact we most likely agree. All I'm trying to say is that God Himself was not created which St. Augustine would also agree and I think you do too. Also that all lies exist to bring about doubt in the Character of God, hence God Himself is the Light, a consuming fire. And that is why I am addressing the matter of sin as the consequence of not trusting in God which is to be in darkness to some degree. Sin is therefore present where men have become estranged from God.

I know it is written that sin is in the flesh, but this only applies to the fact that the carnal minded, those in darkness, value the flesh over the Spirit and reason accordingly. Hence the lust of the flesh is always enmity to God, Whose perfect Spirit will cause us to sacrifice our flesh for the sake of Love. People enjoy the darkness because they will not have to see the reality of their depravity. It is however a subtle lie that holds them captive to a belief that following God is not in their best interests and will cost them everything they hold to be profitable. The Truth is that when a man follows his flesh, he sacrifices his Love away and nothing is more profitable for a man's soul than being filled with Love. That's the way I see it, for what it's worth.

 

[stovebolts]

Childeye,

We are essentially saying the same things, just in a different way... and I am in no way riding the tailcoats of Augustine, let alone running down a rabbit hole on whether or not God was created... I do hope you are able to "see" that.

The way I understand it.. and I do hope I don't regret this, but darkness is the absence of light. One could surmise darkness is inactivity... nothingness. However you want to relate to it. In Genesis 1, when God speaks, it is an act. Jesus would say its an act of work for his Father is always working. When God speaks is it then a wonder that light was his first utterance? And what was this utterance other than the word of God? Clearly we see this tone in John's writing "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and this is echo'd in Colossians "15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created:"

So we clearly see scripture showing that in the Genesis account that God created all by his word. John tells us that Jesus is the Word, and in John 8 Jesus refers himself to the Light, which echo's back to Genesis 1. Paul affirms this by stating that it was God's son (Jesus) who created all. There is more, and I know you already know this.

We have by way of example God's perfect work in creation. Everything was in harmony and I have to admit John Paul did an excellent "Theology of the Body" where he speaks on the garden very extensively. I would deem it a theological masterpiece. But I digress for fear of straying off topic. We have the words of Jesus stating that his Father is always working, and by way of example we have the works of Jesus and we are taught His ways to live. Jesus even said, "If you love me, keep my commandments". Please don't misunderstand me, we are not working for our salvation, our works are simply a manifestation of our devotion and love to Jesus as we try to mirror his life in our own life as a son would mimic his father in awe and respect, hoping to be like him one day... trying to please him. Simply put, we are His workmanship.

Scripture is clear, we are tasked with living the way of Christ, and that is assuming we have a relationship with Christ... We are part of His Body... the Church. We do not offer lip service when our deeds show otherwise....

Sin is failing to do the right thing. It's not about doing the wrong thing.... it's about doing the right thing and that's where our focus should be. Not on where we fail, but how to suceed. Scripture gives us an example of what repentance is. For example, if one is a thief, he is to stop stealing. But this in itself does not acquit him of being a thief. No, he is commanded to find a job.. and then give to the needy. It is the same with a liar. One does not stop being a liar when one stops lying. Rather, one stops being a liar when one starts telling the truth.

Anytime we fail to be the people God would have us to be.. and that means anytime we fail to do what God would have us to do, then we are in sin. Paul understood this, which I believe is why he says that he does what he doesn't want to do, and doesn't do what he wants to do... Ahh, but thank goodness there is no condemnation in Christ, and can we get an Amen to Paul's insight on the matter.

Back to John's theme on darkness and light. About the easiest example to show is the woman at the well. She is in ruin and in darkness. She is sitting next to the true light who wants to give light, and she responds with an argument... "You Jews"... All she had to do was reach out to the light to find healing, but she didn't do that.. and because she didn't do that, she remained in darkness. In that case, I am glad Jesus was persistent and brought her to the light.

 

[childeye]

Childeye,

We are essentially saying the same things, just in a different way... and I am in no way riding the tailcoats of Augustine, let alone running down a rabbit hole on whether or not God was created... I do hope you are able to "see" that.

The way I understand it.. and I do hope I don't regret this, but darkness is the absence of light. One could surmise darkness is inactivity... nothingness. However you want to relate to it. In Genesis 1, when God speaks, it is an act. Jesus would say its an act of work for his Father is always working. When God speaks is it then a wonder that light was his first utterance? And what was this utterance other than the word of God? Clearly we see this tone in John's writing "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and this is echo'd in Colossians "15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created:"

So we clearly see scripture showing that in the Genesis account that God created all by his word. John tells us that Jesus is the Word, and in John 8 Jesus refers himself to the Light, which echo's back to Genesis 1. Paul affirms this by stating that it was God's son (Jesus) who created all. There is more, and I know you already know this.

We have by way of example God's perfect work in creation. Everything was in harmony and I have to admit John Paul did an excellent "Theology of the Body" where he speaks on the garden very extensively. I would deem it a theological masterpiece. But I digress for fear of straying off topic. We have the words of Jesus stating that his Father is always working, and by way of example we have the works of Jesus and we are taught His ways to live. Jesus even said, "If you love me, keep my commandments". Please don't misunderstand me, we are not working for our salvation, our works are simply a manifestation of our devotion and love to Jesus as we try to mirror his life in our own life as a son would mimic his father in awe and respect, hoping to be like him one day... trying to please him. Simply put, we are His workmanship.

Scripture is clear, we are tasked with living the way of Christ, and that is assuming we have a relationship with Christ... We are part of His Body... the Church. We do not offer lip service when our deeds show otherwise....

Sin is failing to do the right thing. It's not about doing the wrong thing.... it's about doing the right thing and that's where our focus should be. Not on where we fail, but how to suceed. Scripture gives us an example of what repentance is. For example, if one is a thief, he is to stop stealing. But this in itself does not acquit him of being a thief. No, he is commanded to find a job.. and then give to the needy. It is the same with a liar. One does not stop being a liar when one stops lying. Rather, one stops being a liar when one starts telling the truth.

Anytime we fail to be the people God would have us to be.. and that means anytime we fail to do what God would have us to do, then we are in sin. Paul understood this, which I believe is why he says that he does what he doesn't want to do, and doesn't do what he wants to do... Ahh, but thank goodness there is no condemnation in Christ, and can we get an Amen to Paul's insight on the matter.

Back to John's theme on darkness and light. About the easiest example to show is the woman at the well. She is in ruin and in darkness. She is sitting next to the true light who wants to give light, and she responds with an argument... "You Jews"... All she had to do was reach out to the light to find healing, but she didn't do that.. and because she didn't do that, she remained in darkness. In that case, I am glad Jesus was persistent and brought her to the light.

Thank you for the time you spent on addressing me. We all value our pearls. I have no desire to cause you to regret expressing yourself. The problem is always semantics. The term God is a broad generalization encompassing not only His Person but the energy and power of His Word which has created all things, even those things that usurp. You pointed this out quite admirably in my view. I therefore agree with your assessments pertaining to Light and dark. However regarding the woman at the well, it seems to me she accepted Christ in faith when in response to Jesus' saying she would have asked him for water if she knew who stood before her, she said "please give me this water always". Also she runs and tells all that this must be the Messiah because he told her everything she had done. So I don't see how she turned away from being healed.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for being polite.

When I read the account of the woman at the well, Jesus offers her that healing water. We see that there are two things that ail this woman. She has had multiple husbands and is with a man not her husband and then she has the social ailment of how to worship God.

She asks for this water, and Jesus says, "Go get your husband" and we see through the dialog that she ends being respectful but changes the discussion to "You Jews worship, but our ancestors...." I see this as she's not ready to confront her past and it's easy to divert our pain to something bigger. Jesus is right there in front of her wanting to give her the living water that she so desperatly needs to heal and grow from her failed relationships and she responds with, "You Jews" which was the argument of the day between the Samaritans and the Jews. Often, when we have personal pain, we don't want to talk about it and we hide behind other issues. It's so much easier to talk about the faults and issues of other people than to address our own. I think that's why I appreciate the gentle words of Jesus to this woman. He puts worship in it's proper perspective because he understands it's about the heart, and by doing so, I think in a way she understand that her issue is an issue of the heart.

Some will disagree with me, and that's ok. It's my little pearl because that's what resonates with me. Often we don't want to be healed because we don't want to talk about our pain. It's scarey because people are so quick to pass judgment on the things we do wrong and they spend very little time trying to understand the situation from anothers perspective long enough to offer some comforting advice that would actually bring the person into repentance by using gentle, yet sobering and insightful words. We learn to guard our baggage because it's not safe to bring it out because it's so easy for others to pour salt in those wounds.

Jesus pursues us just like he pursued the woman and I am thankful for that. He doesn't leave us when we bring up the argument of the day, but he doesn't let us escape the other junk either. As a result, she recieved a taste of that living water.

 

[childeye]

Thank you for being polite.

When I read the account of the woman at the well, Jesus offers her that healing water. We see that there are two things that ail this woman. She has had multiple husbands and is with a man not her husband and then she has the social ailment of how to worship God.

She asks for this water, and Jesus says, "Go get your husband" and we see through the dialog that she ends being respectful but changes the discussion to "You Jews worship, but our ancestors...." I see this as she's not ready to confront her past and it's easy to divert our pain to something bigger. Jesus is right there in front of her wanting to give her the living water that she so desperatly needs to heal and grow from her failed relationships and she responds with, "You Jews" which was the argument of the day between the Samaritans and the Jews. Often, when we have personal pain, we don't want to talk about it and we hide behind other issues. It's so much easier to talk about the faults and issues of other people than to address our own. I think that's why I appreciate the gentle words of Jesus to this woman. He puts worship in it's proper perspective because he understands it's about the heart, and by doing so, I think in a way she understand that her issue is an issue of the heart.



Some will disagree with me, and that's ok. It's my little pearl because that's what resonates with me. Often we don't want to be healed because we don't want to talk about our pain. It's scarey because people are so quick to pass judgment on the things we do wrong and they spend very little time trying to understand the situation from anothers perspective long enough to offer some comforting advice that would actually bring the person into repentance by using gentle, yet sobering and insightful words. We learn to guard our baggage because it's not safe to bring it out because it's so easy for others to pour salt in those wounds.

Jesus pursues us just like he pursued the woman and I am thankful for that. He doesn't leave us when we bring up the argument of the day, but he doesn't let us escape the other junk either. As a result, she recieved a taste of that living water.

After reading your post, I now have a better understanding of your take on this scripture. You make some valid points albeit you are reading between the lines so to speak, and that requires some guesswork. To summarize what I have come away with is that you believe the woman took a defensive posture when confronted with the fact that she had had many husbands and currently was without one. I would say your guesswork is insightful since obviously Jesus knew what he was doing and also what buttons to push to get a reaction. Why else would he say go get your husband when he knows she does not have one?

However, her "argument of the day" may actually have a direct relationship with why she has no husband rather than just a means to avoid the subject. But this of course we cannot know from the scripture. Certainly Jesus used the good Samaritan story to convey a point that may coincide with what the woman may be refering to, i.e., the doing of God's will is a spiritual matter of compassion and not simply a matter of following the letter. The point that worshipping God on the Mountain as opposed to Jerusalem seems to suggest what worshipping from the heart rather than serving an institution is at issue. Nonetheless, you are right that she would naturally take a defensive posture and your added commentary as to why people are afraid to let others in is also thoughtful. Whatever the case may be, we can be sure that Jesus' invite is without condemnation and his knowledge of the sin that ails us is with more understanding than our own. May he have his way in all things so that all may prosper.

Thanks for the discussion, I have enjoyed a pleasant exchange.

 

[JCitoL]

Well?

From my vantage point, sin does not really exist. Notice how the scriptures describe sin as "darkness". Darkness does not exist. In fact, all darkness is, is a word to describe a lack of light.

Sin is simply the rejection of the love of God, nothing more. It does not exist. God did not create it.

unfortunately the "darkness" is the uncaused and eternally existing negative side of the divine, while the "sin" is the appearance of the "darkness" and the spiritual/religious iniquity

Blessings

 

[stovebolts]

After reading your post, I now have a better understanding of your take on this scripture. You make some valid points albeit you are reading between the lines so to speak, and that requires some guesswork. To summarize what I have come away with is that you believe the woman took a defensive posture when confronted with the fact that she had had many husbands and currently was without one. I would say your guesswork is insightful since obviously Jesus knew what he was doing and also what buttons to push to get a reaction. Why else would he say go get your husband when he knows she does not have one?

However, her "argument of the day" may actually have a direct relationship with why she has no husband rather than just a means to avoid the subject. But this of course we cannot know from the scripture. Certainly Jesus used the good Samaritan story to convey a point that may coincide with what the woman may be refering to, i.e., the doing of God's will is a spiritual matter of compassion and not simply a matter of following the letter. The point that worshipping God on the Mountain as opposed to Jerusalem seems to suggest what worshipping from the heart rather than serving an institution is at issue. Nonetheless, you are right that she would naturally take a defensive posture and your added commentary as to why people are afraid to let others in is also thoughtful. Whatever the case may be, we can be sure that Jesus' invite is without condemnation and his knowledge of the sin that ails us is with more understanding than our own. May he have his way in all things so that all may prosper.

Thanks for the discussion, I have enjoyed a pleasant exchange.

I find myself too enjoying this topic with you. It's rare to find edification in this forum.. The conversation is a breath of fresh air.

I know that there was a tremendous amount of tension between the Samaritans and the Jews and I wish I was a little sharper than I am on it. I believe during the Exile gentiles were mixed among the Jews and they claimed lineage to Abraham. Again, I'm dull on this. After the exile the Samaritan's were rejected as part of Israel, and I'm not sure exactly why. I do know that they believed they were to worship God on the mountain as they claimed ownership of Jacob's well. I believe they also only accepted parts of the Torah, but not the whole Torah. Anyway, I've read in other places through the years where the Samaritan's would try to desecrate the temple and I've also read how the two groups continually sought revenge. What I took away from those readings were that the two groups had a soiled past that ran deep.

Have your studied anything on this?

 

[childeye]

I find myself too enjoying this topic with you. It's rare to find edification in this forum.. The conversation is a breath of fresh air.

I know that there was a tremendous amount of tension between the Samaritans and the Jews and I wish I was a little sharper than I am on it. I believe during the Exile gentiles were mixed among the Jews and they claimed lineage to Abraham. Again, I'm dull on this. After the exile the Samaritan's were rejected as part of Israel, and I'm not sure exactly why. I do know that they believed they were to worship God on the mountain as they claimed ownership of Jacob's well. I believe they also only accepted parts of the Torah, but not the whole Torah. Anyway, I've read in other places through the years where the Samaritan's would try to desecrate the temple and I've also read how the two groups continually sought revenge. What I took away from those readings were that the two groups had a soiled past that ran deep.

Have your studied anything on this?

I havn't really studied the topic very much and I hardly trust everything I read anyway since there are two sides to such history. I believe that such divisions do happen all the time and that these divisions are almost always misunderstandings over doctrine. People who must share a planet, fighting over moral imperatives. The honest truth, is all I know for sure is God, (Creator of all things) is trustworthy or we're all doomed.