What is the Mark of the Beast?

[francisdesales]

I'm inclined to believe that the Beast was Caesar Nero in the mid 60s AD. I know that's not as exciting as trying to figure out the "Beast mystery" from present-day newspapers, but it seems most contextual to me.

Agreed - and could refer to all of his successors, the Roman Emperor... John was writing to people of 100 AD and didn't care about the people of 2010 AD. He wrote to an audience that would interpret Revelation's mysterious symbols in a manner that would be useful to them...

Regards

 

[shad]

What is the Mark of the Beast?

It is symbolic. If we are not followers of Jesus we will receive the mark in our heart and God can see it.

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[JudaicChristian]

I'm inclined to believe that the Beast was Caesar Nero in the mid 60s AD. I know that's not as exciting as trying to figure out the "Beast mystery" from present-day newspapers, but it seems most contextual to me.

Agreed - and could refer to all of his successors, the Roman Emperor... John was writing to people of 100 AD and didn't care about the people of 2010 AD. He wrote to an audience that would interpret Revelation's mysterious symbols in a manner that would be useful to them...

Regards

John was writing to those present and future. See: Revelation 1:19. "Write, therefore, what you have seen,what is now and what will take place later. 20The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven congregations, and the seven lampsticks are the seven congregations.

 

[JudaicChristian]

During the days of John the Romans painted in blood dragons on their sheilds. It seems that different cultures and religions used the dragon as a symbol. All we know is that in other cultures it is a symbol for good luck or fortune, but in Judaism and Christianity it is a symbol for evil and Satan. The Catholic Church uses the dragon symbol at some of it,s churches; I do not know if anyone knows why they use it. Another thing I find odd about the Catholics is that they have upside down crosses displayed. Who knows why? In modern society an upside down cross means "To Hell with Christ." There are many things the Catholics say and do or ware that is associated with Paganism. And all of it seems good to them. Tip of the day: Steer manure makes a great stocking stuffer.

 

[francisdesales]

Agreed - and could refer to all of his successors, the Roman Emperor... John was writing to people of 100 AD and didn't care about the people of 2010 AD. He wrote to an audience that would interpret Revelation's mysterious symbols in a manner that would be useful to them...

John was writing to those present and future. See: Revelation 1:19. "Write, therefore, what you have seen,what is now and what will take place later. 20The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven congregations, and the seven lampsticks are the seven congregations.

"later" can mean next week. It doesn't have to mean 2000 years later...

The "later", if meaing 2000 years later, would be pointless to people of 100 AD. Who cares about something that will happen 2000 years from now???

"Later", to John, means very soon...Not hundreds of hundreds of years later...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

During the days of John the Romans painted in blood dragons on their sheilds. It seems that different cultures and religions used the dragon as a symbol. All we know is that in other cultures it is a symbol for good luck or fortune, but in Judaism and Christianity it is a symbol for evil and Satan. The Catholic Church uses the dragon symbol at some of it,s churches; I do not know if anyone knows why they use it. Another thing I find odd about the Catholics is that they have upside down crosses displayed. Who knows why? In modern society an upside down cross means "To Hell with Christ." There are many things the Catholics say and do or ware that is associated with Paganism. And all of it seems good to them. Tip of the day: Steer manure makes a great stocking stuffer.

The best thing to do is not even comment on such steer manure dropped from this post above...

just desperate attempts to villify the other side based on ignorance...

 

[toddm]

"later" can mean next week. It doesn't have to mean 2000 years later...

The "later", if meaing 2000 years later, would be pointless to people of 100 AD. Who cares about something that will happen 2000 years from now???

"Later", to John, means very soon...Not hundreds of hundreds of years later...

Regards

Bam! The imminent language of Revelation hardly seems fitting to mean 2,000 yrs later.

 

[LaCrum]

Lets see the documentation for that statement. That sounds like something a Catholic would say.

Wow that's not a very Christian or loving statement of you to make toward Catholics. It was 616, not 696 I was thinking of.

Here's a link discussing it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

616
A few ancient manuscripts of the Revelation say the number is 616, fifty less than the more well known numeral. A possible reason for the discrepancy lies in early translation. On the assumption that the Revelation was meant to be distributed among the Early Christians, it could very well be assumed that occasionally someone may have used the Latin spelling of Nero's name (Nero Caesar), so the total value of the gematria would be 616.[16][17]

The early Church father Irenaeus knew several occurrences of the 616-variant but regarded them as a scribal error and affirmed that the number 666 stood "in all the most approved and ancient copies" and is attested by "those men who saw John face to face".[18]


Red arrow points to ???? (616) in P115 deciphered in May 2005.In May 2005, it was reported that scholars at Oxford University using advanced imaging techniques[19] had been able to read previously illegible portions of the earliest known record of the Book of Revelation (a 1,700 year old papyrus), from the Oxyrhynchus site, Papyrus 115 or P115, dating one century after Irenaeus. The fragment gives the Number of the Beast as 616 (chi, iota, sigma), rather than the majority text 666 (chi, xi, sigma).[1] The other early witness Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) has it written in full: hexakosiai deka hex (lit. six hundred sixteen).[20]

Significantly, P115 aligns with Codex Alexandrinus (A) and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (C) which are generally regarded as providing the best testimony to Revelation. Thus, P115 has superior testimony to that of P47 which aligns with Codex Sinaiticus and together form the second-best witness to the Book of Revelation. This has led some scholars to conclude that 616 is the original number of the beast.[21][22]

Dr. Paul Lewes in his book, A Key to Christian Origins (1932) wrote:

"The figure 616 is given in one of the two best manuscripts, C (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, Paris), by the Latin version of Tyconius (DCXVI, ed. Souter in the Journal of Theology, SE, April 1913), and by an ancient Armenian version (ed. Conybaere, 1907). Irenaeus knew about it [the 616 reading], but did not adopt it (Haer. v.30,3), Jerome adopted it (De Monogramm., ed. Dom G Morin in the Rev. Benedictine, 1903). It is probably original. The number 666 has been substituted for 616 either by analogy with 888, the [Greek] number of Jesus (Deissmann), or because it is a triangular number, the sum of the first 36 numbers (1+2+3+4+5+6...+36 = 666)".[23]

Professor David C. Parker, Professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the University of Birmingham, thinks that 616, although less memorable than 666, is the original.[24] Dr. Ellen Aitken said: “Scholars have argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original number of the beast. It's probably about 100 years before any other version."[25].

 

[JudaicChristian]

The Catholic Church has a very long history of killing Christians, sexual immorality, and distorting scripture and historical documents. Now why should anyone listen to that adversary or it's disciples?

 

[toddm]

The Catholic Church has a very long history of killing Christians, sexual immorality, and distorting scripture and historical documents. Now why should anyone listen to that adversary or it's disciples?

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the discussion

 

[JudaicChristian]

Lets see the documentation for that statement. That sounds like something a Catholic would say.

Wow that's not a very Christian or loving statement of you to make toward Catholics. It was 616, not 696 I was thinking of.

Here's a link discussing it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

Now this comment is note worthy: "The early Church father Irenaeus knew several occurrences of the 616-variant but regarded them as a scribal error and affirmed that the number 666 stood "in all the most approved and ancient copies" and is attested by "those men who saw John face to face."

 

[JudaicChristian]

616 or 666
Irenaeus knew several occurrences of the 616 variant, but he regarded them as scribal errors and affirmed that the number 666 is the correct translation. Quote: "in all the most approved and ancient copies" and is attested by "those men who saw John face to face".
According to Irenaeus, those men who knew John face to face affirm that the number of that Beast (nation) is 666.

 

[Hawkins]

I can grasp what you're saying. Where did you get this from? Seems everyone's got their own theory. Interesting.....Those links I posted make sense to me especially since they used scripture to back up their pov. But what you just explained (education as the mark) sounds more feasible than money being the mark.

Even the very elect could be deceived by false prophecies regarding this subject. I can't even count how many different responses there are on this subject. How can we be prepared, if we aren't on the same page?

It doesn't matter. Those who understand will understand. And here's more, which I posted else where minutes ago.

-----------------------
Though I never deny the possibility that the 8th pope may have something to do with the Beast in the last days, I do think that the situation is more spiritual in nature than physical (a spiritual warfare). The pope could be just a puppet of the Beast.

In my study, Satan's force is divided into 2 hordes, and his hierachy is somehow in 3 tiers,

Satan->Lawless One (the Beast)->False prophet (or any puppet having a physical body in our physical world)

Satan->Anti-christ->False prophet (or any puppet)

The anti-christ's job is for the spreading of the false doctrines. From my speculation almost all kinds of false doctrines will finally boil down to the denial of Jesus Christ. For example, what those universalists preaching is "no hell exists such that no believing in Jesus is needed as everyone will finally be saved".

The lawless one is for the spreading of scientism and such through our education system, for the worshiping of the image of the dead and Satan. The atheists are actually worshiping scientism instead of God, though they know of God and Christianity consciously.

Romans 1:21-23
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


Their final goal is to bring the abomination into God's earthly church to cause a spiritual desolation (no soul can be harvested after the destruction of God's church). Most likely this will start with the Catholic Church (possibly by the 8th pope).

And the possible abomination include,
abomination 1 - worshiping of a false god
Allah the false god is introduced formally intot the church and treated the same as our God.

abomination 2 - deceit
the church may finally accept evolution as its formal stance.

abomination 3 - adultery
the church may finally accept homosexuality as its formal stance.

When God's earthly church accepts the above (or more), which simply means people's faith is no longer the correct kind of faith to be saved. It is the abomination causing desolation to occur inside God's Holy Place.

Then perhaps the end will come.

Matthew 24:15-16
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

 

[Fembot]

I'm inclined to believe that the Beast was Caesar Nero in the mid 60s AD. I know that's not as exciting as trying to figure out the "Beast mystery" from present-day newspapers, but it seems most contextual to me.

I saw that on Nat Geo this week. What do you think about the links posted?

 

[Fembot]

The Catholic Church has a very long history of killing Christians, sexual immorality, and distorting scripture and historical documents. Now why should anyone listen to that adversary or it's disciples?

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the discussion

If you read the links I posted you would see the relevance.

 

[francisdesales]

The Catholic Church has a very long history of killing Christians, sexual immorality, and distorting scripture and historical documents. Now why should anyone listen to that adversary or it's disciples?

Let's be honest...

MEN have a long history of killing others, sexual immorality, etc etc...

Non-Catholic Christians individually are guilty of the very same crimes against other men...

We are all in this together, we all need the grace of God.

Catholics and non-Catholics...

Your comments are just more divisive chatter continuing the work of dividing the Body of Christ...

Regards

 

[JudaicChristian]

The Catholic Church has a very long history of killing Christians, sexual immorality, and distorting scripture and historical documents. Now why should anyone listen to that adversary or it's disciples?

Let's be honest...

MEN have a long history of killing others, sexual immorality, etc etc...

Non-Catholic Christians individually are guilty of the very same crimes against other men...

We are all in this together, we all need the grace of God.

Catholics and non-Catholics...

Your comments are just more divisive chatter continuing the work of dividing the Body of Christ...

Regards

That is because I am for the 7 Stars and the 7 lampsticks.
Zechariah 3:9
See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 1:5
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Revelation 3:1
"To the angel of the church in Sardis write:These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 4:5
From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

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