Bible Study WHAT IS THE MEANING OF ISAIAH 66:24 ...?

[SputnikBoy]

A friend just asked me the question of the post topic. Whether I know the answer or not I'd like to throw this question open to other forum users. The text is Isaiah 66:24 . . .

 

[jgredline]

Sput
Trick question Ha? :wink: OK, i will bite. Taking it back to verse 18

He knows their works and their thoughts and when He rains down judgment on them, they will see His glory. He will give them some supernatural sign, which we cannot identify at present. Those who escape will go to the ends of the earth with the news of the Lord’s power and fame. Then the Gentiles will mobilize their transportation facilities to carry dispersed Israelites back to the land, as if they were bringing an offering to Jehovah. God will reinstitute the priesthood and the Levitical order for service in the millennial temple.

Israel’s status with God will be as permanent and secure as the new heavens and the new earth. Pilgrims from all nations will come to Jerusalem at the appointed times to worship.
While there they will walk out to the Valley of Hinnom and see the corpses of rebels being cremated in the perpetual fire of the city dump.
It is worth noting that the Lord quotes from the last verse in Isaiah as a warning to those who would live in sin and offend Christ’s little ones. Three times in Mark 9 Jesus uses Isaiah’s solemn words: “Their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched†.

The good news is that a person can escape these eternal fires of hell by putting his or her faith in the Savior, the Servant of the Lord that Isaiah has described so winsomely in so many of his prophecies.

I am sure its not what you wanted to read, but it is my take on it.

 

[guibox]

And your take is not bad, jg. However it fails to take in the whole matter and the ramifications of what happens at the end time and how we are to view passages like Mark 9.

Obviously the 'worm not dying' is metaphorical unless you want to believe that somehow in an eternal fiery environment, we have asbestos worms that 'eat' what the fire doesn't manage to consume and not be burnt up themselves...and that they too also have immortality and a 'spirit' that is reunited with their 'body' so they can be not burned for eternity....???? Hey, I didn't make the doctrine!)

What we see is that these worms are feeding on corpses and not living souls be they in body and immaterial (How exactly does a worm eat a disembodied soul?)

You are right that this is imagery from the Valley of Hinnom where 'gehenna' comes from. This is signficant, jg. For the V of H was the imagery where hellfire comes from. It was a place of continual burning BECAUSE there were always BODIES to feed the fires. And yet we see that it was DEAD BODIES that were cast in the fire, not living beings.

Hence, the metaphor here is complete and absolute destruction signified by the worms doing their work (which is to eat dead bodies! The bible uses these critters all the time to show complete death, degradation and finality).

We must then take this language into Mark 9 (as well as unquenchable fire spoken of in Jeremiah 17:29) which proves that the wicked are going to be utterly annihilated at the end and not shown to live for eternity.

 

[samuel]

The diffrence here being "the", "Their". The word used in this verse is their, not the. The word worm signifies the decay, and corruption of the body.

Where their body never is consumed, and the fire is never quenched. Hell is eternal whether some choose to believe it or not. I don't suggest anyone wanting to go there just to prove the point though.

 

[guibox]

The diffrence here being "the", "Their". The word used in this verse is their, not the. The word worm signifies the decay, and corruption of the body.

Where their body never is consumed, and the fire is never quenched. Hell is eternal whether some choose to believe it or not. I don't suggest anyone wanting to go there just to prove the point though.

Again, you ignore the metaphorical meaning of the passages. The Hebrews had no concept of 'bodies that are never consumed'. This is an erroneous view of the nature of man read into the text.

How can bodies never be consumed? The Bible makes it quite clear that the wicked WILL be consumed, not burning eternally like some asbestos fire torch.

You have no basis at all, anywhere in the scripture, to show that the wicked have immortal bodies to never be consumed.

Read Jeremiah 17:29 again (if you read it at all). An 'unquenchable fire' is a fire that cannot be PUT OUT not that it will not GO OUT.

Understand the language of destruction that the bible uses and you will rightly interpret Mark 9 and Revelation 14 correctly.

 

[samuel]

Well to tell you the truth! I have delt with plenty of your kind before. so to each his own!.

 

[guibox]

Well to tell you the truth! I have delt with plenty of your kind before. so to each his own!.

Usually the response of someone who doesn't want to accept the bible for what it says over tight-fisted tradition. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away or make erroneous views the truth simply because it is easier and safer to accept.

We have an obligation to seek out the truth even if it goes against what we've grown up to believe. This is difficult but necessary.

 

[samuel]

Really it makes no diffrence since I have no plans to visit.
But don't you think it might be little more impressive to a sinner, to tell him he would burn forever, than to tell him it will all be over in a flash.

This is one of those doctrines people spend time on, better spent on other things. Which there are about a half dozen of - it does not pay to discuss. It certainly does nothing for the glory of God.

 

[guibox]

But don't you think it might be little more impressive to a sinner, to tell him he would burn forever, than to tell him it will all be over in a flash.

Impressive?

How can you say that? You see, your focus is on the wrong thing. You see it as this:

man sins---man deserves to be punished--Christ came to save those worthy and condemn those who aren't

This is not the formula. It is this:

man sins---man automatically is doomed to die---Christ comes to give life, those who reject it continue to face death

God doesn't want to punish sinners. He wants to eradicate sin. To say that God is going to knowingly consign sinners to a hell that He created for no other reason but to punish, because sinners 'deserve it' is to make God vindictive.

This is one of those doctrines people spend time on, better spent on other things. Which there are about a half dozen of - it does not pay to discuss. It certainly does nothing for the glory of God.

The doctrine of eternal torment 'certainly does nothing for the glory of God'. This doctrine more than anything else has made more atheists and people lost because it skews the loving character of God and makes Him the worst tyrant and vindictive 'god' that even the worst human mind couldn't imagine.

It is time we stop consigning people to doom because we misrepresent the character of God. Christ admonished the Pharisees and pronounced judgment on them for doing exactly that about God. Why do Christians think this won't happen to them when they present our Loving God in such a horrible light and call it 'truth'?

 

[samuel]

I don't think I would be trying to speak for God if I were you. We have not the mind of God, nor can we understand it. Our idea of justice is compramised at best, and we cannot qustion Gods justice. As far as evidence goes it just depends on your view, there is as much to support either view, it just depends on your idea of justice, but again that is not within our understanding..

But I would have no problem with the judge if I committed murder, he can either sentence me to life in prison or death. I broke the law, and I knew the consequences, so in the end I made the choice not the judge. In Gods case there is only one sentence, no alternative.

As I said this is fruitless discussion. And a waste of time.

 

[SputnikBoy]

As I said this is fruitless discussion. And a waste of time.

Purely your opinion ...and a rather empty one at that. I believe that an accurate picture of the destiny of the lost would have to be among the most important topics in the scriptures.

 

[samuel]

I was going to discuss this further, but a thought came to me this morning - if you want to call it that. Our Lord when asked for the times, and the signs of his coming answered with some specific signs, no more.

We all have our little differences in the way we see things working out, and that’s no problem. But the problem arises when we get so involved we stop watching, that was our Lords last statement. None of us have a rock solid way of proving which is right, if it were so there would be no contentions.

Unfortunately there is one who does have a plan, its so old and always has the same appearance, we don’t even recognize it any longer. That one is Satan!!. He is very attentive, and heard our Lord when he said a house divided cannot stand, and he is using it. The worst part is we are going right along with it. I am not recommending a common ground for all religions as the ecumenicist do, but a common ground to return to watching.

As I reviewed the latest news reports this morning, I saw many things happening that bear close watching. We are standing on the brink of the precipice, and the fall is a great distance down. In fact it leads all the way to Hell!. If our Lord returns today GREAT!, but if as some believe we must go through the TIMES of TROUBLE we should be prepared, because its right at the door.

One day we will wake up in a brand new world, that is a far cry better than this one. So don’t consume yourselves with trying to save this old haunt of satan, this one does belong to him you know, and we should not even try to lay claim to it. Its no longer ours, if you are Christian your citizenship is in Heaven.

But the day is far spent, and the night is coming on swiftly, so as our Lord said WATCH, I really do not think we have long to wait regardless of how we see things.

One thing for sure we know Jesus said he would return for us, that promise we know is true. It doesn’t matter what the day, or hour is - we just need to be ready.

 

[jgredline]

samuel

I agree with your postings here and sput I thought it could have turned into a very fruitful discussion, but then it quickly started to head towards annihilation and well, why bother. The sad thing is that there is so much to learn and discuss in the passage you asked about... There is allot of history that would be great for growth here.... Perhaps if we can agree to leave eternal torment or annihilation out of this thread we discuss such things, but up until now I have not responded to guibox post, because it was the same ole retoric

 

[stranger]

Sputnikboy'

My opinion : Is 66.24 is an end of the age scenario.

In Christ: Stranger

 

[samuel]

I think a lot of people misunderstand this particular verse, as referring to a heavenly scene. Where those in heaven can walk over and look upon those who are in torment in hell. This would be a horrifying scene, and not provoking to much joy.

Isaiah was referring to the end of all those who rebel against God, a hellish scene for certain. But looking more so at those who fall on the battlefield of rebellion. Also as a picture of Armageddon, after which the Jews will be burying the corpses of the dead, and rotting bodies of these who have rebelled against God for months. A time in which they will be able to look over the battlefield in the valley of Megiddo, and view the carnage of those who rebelled against God.

 

[cyberjosh]

Obviously the 'worm not dying' is metaphorical unless you want to believe that somehow in an eternal fiery environment, we have asbestos worms that 'eat' what the fire doesn't manage to consume and not be burnt up themselves...and that they too also have immortality and a 'spirit' that is reunited with their 'body' so they can be not burned for eternity....???? Hey, I didn't make the doctrine!)

What we see is that these worms are feeding on corpses and not living souls be they in body and immaterial (How exactly does a worm eat a disembodied soul?)

One thing I haven't seen written here yet is the source of the imagery of this symbolic passage. Where this passage gets its graphic image from (and the "worms" in association with Sheol are mentioned again in Isaiah 14:11) is from the Valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem. Early on in Hebrew history the valley of Hinnom was regarded as a place of idolatry and many "high places" were put there for pagan worship, but later it was used as a landfill and more and more trash accumulated in the valley until worms became a problem so the Hebrews set the enormous valley full of trash on fire to both get rid of the trash and to kill the worms. Well the worms stayed at the bottom and the top was always on fire never quite consuming the enormity of trash in the valley. There was a constant fire and smoke from the valley, and eventually by Jesus time the valley had become a byword for hell in the form of the greek word Gehenna, the "henna" part being borrowed from the cognates in the Valley's name.

It was the perfect idiom/symbolism for a place constantly on fire with magots & worms in it that never die (the fire never consumes them). Pretty much denoting eternal torture in a disgusting, unpleasant place.

Edit: I take it back, I see that jgredline has touched on this breifly. But I hope my elaboration helps.

 

[cyberjosh]

Read Jeremiah 17:29 again (if you read it at all). An 'unquenchable fire' is a fire that cannot be PUT OUT not that it will not GO OUT.

That verse doesn't exist, at least not on Biblegateway. Typo? At any rate that sounds like a strained interpretation anyway. The hebrew probably wouldn't allow for such an interpretation.

Plus there are several simple statments in hebrew which use simple ideas to denote eternity, such as the word "ending/ceasing" with a negative article in front of it.

 

[guibox]

That verse doesn't exist, at least not on Biblegateway. Typo? At any rate that sounds like a strained interpretation anyway. The hebrew probably wouldn't allow for such an interpretation.

Oops...I meant Jeremiah 17:27

'strained'? When the Bible says that it will burn the gates of Jerusalem with 'unquenchable fire' and the gates are not burning now, how do you explain unquenchable?

 

[cyberjosh]

Oops...I meant Jeremiah 17:27

'strained'? When the Bible says that it will burn the gates of Jerusalem with 'unquenchable fire' and the gates are not burning now, how do you explain unquenchable?

In Jeremiah 17:27 (as well as Jeremiah 7:20 & Ezekiel 20:47, where quenching is mentioned) it seems to denote an unstoppable force for the duration of its purpose or completion of its task, obviously temporal because human life is finite - and the punishments are for people when they are living. Now in those verses they refer to things that will happen to living people, and the task will either be completed as God said (in their lifetime, obviously, or perhaps repeated for every generation) or God's threats would be alleviated (thus ending it) if the nation repents (often the reason for such promised destructions - Jeremiah 18:7-11). But in the context of a dead person where does the idea of suffering in hell stop? Is there an end goal to being cast into hell and the lake of fire? How could you repent after you are dead, the Bible makes it clear that it is a point of no return? The word "unquenchable" doesn't have to refer to a force that ceases (you have to look at context to determine the meaning), for example in Matthew 18:8 Jesus demonstrates that it is an eternal fire.


And aside from that has anyone seen now the imagery lended to Isaiah 66:24 from the valley of Hinnom? Also the context of that verse demands an everlasting "looking upon the corpses." Note the following words used to describe activities:

"For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,†says the LORD,
“ So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,†says the LORD.
“ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. " (Isaiah 64:22-24)


Just like the activity of worshiping God will proceed from one Sabbath and Moon to the next, and the remaining of the heavens and our name, so will be the constant gazing on those dead in their tresspasses.

 

[guibox]

In Jeremiah 17:27 (as well as Jeremiah 7:20 & Ezekiel 20:47, where quenching is mentioned) it seems to denote an unstoppable force for the duration of its purpose or completion of its task, obviously temporal because human life is finite - and the punishments are for people when they are living.

Your false assumption is that this changes for the afterlife. The wicked are not immortal and their punishment is the same fire. The problem is you assume that the wicked are immortal to be punished for eternity THEREFORE you must interpret the 'unquenchable fire' to actually not mean that it won't be PUT OUT as the Bible uses it but that it will not GO OUT.

You have basically taken an apple and called it an orange.

But in the context of a dead person where does the idea of suffering in hell stop? Is there an end goal to being cast into hell and the lake of fire? How could you repent after you are dead, the Bible makes it clear that it is a point of no return?

Nobody is saying that there ISN'T a point of no return. 'Unquenchable fire' means that it will do its work uninterrupted until everything is gone. A fire that can not be put out will destroy completely and utterly. Malachi 4:1-3 brings this out clearly that they will be 'ashes under the soles of your feet' and that 'it shall not be left them root nor branch'. This also coincides with Psalms 37 which says that the wicked shall be 'burnt up' and 'into smoke shall they consume away'

The word "unquenchable" doesn't have to refer to a force that ceases (you have to look at context to determine the meaning), for example in Matthew 18:8 Jesus demonstrates that it is an eternal fire.

But that is the only way the Bible uses it and the NT directly takes this language from the Old. Therefore, unless we are told otherwise the same meaning of the language must apply. See Jude 7 for eternal fire. Eternal is in the results, not the duration.

We must stop making assumptions and interpreting already explained language according to these assumptions. Let the Bible interpret itself. The parallel is clear...

(Sodoma and Gomorrah and Jerusalem) -- God's enemies sinned against Him---God's enemies 'suffer the vengeance of eternal fire' and 'unquenchable fire'

(The wicked at the end of time) -- God's enemies sinned against Him---God's enemies 'suffer the vengeance of eternal fire' and 'unquenchable fire'

The wicked are mortal. Their lot in this life will be the same in the next one.

you cannot take the exact same language to denote 'annihilation', make the wicked immortal and use this exact same language then to denote 'eternal conscious torment'.

This is twisting the Bible to make 'black' be 'white' and 'white', 'black'