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What is the right way to interpret Jesus' teachings regarding divorce?

I understand the Scriptures to be written to the average guy... Not just scholars . Something about making wise the simple... Yes there are deep subjects in Scripture that go over my head and i am thankful for the scholars ...


Here He is preaching to multitudes
Mat_5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat_19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Here He is talking to His buddy's
Mar 10:10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.


Could be Jesus just didn't think He should have to go into detail again..

Example... Johnny your room is a mess time to clean it up.

Johnny your room is a mess time to clean it up.

Clean your room :hips
 
wondering said:
Actually, I've been hearing the same argument.
And it makes sense.
In a way I believe that we entered into "politics" too late.
Way back in the 60's and 70's we never thought it would come to this...
but here we are. Our morals were not enough to hold back divorce, SS marriage, etc.
Because we went from a society that believed in absolute morals to subjective morals, and so Christianity was hit head on with two big forces which have created many evils.

So now how do we go back? How do we get our house in order?
Young people talk about living together as if it were the most natural thing to do.
The CC is making changes regarding giving communion to remarrieds, thus changing an important doctrine. I know some say no doctrine has been changed, but I believe it certainly has.

And how do we deal with a young woman with two children -- her husband leaves her. Is she to be alone forever? Should the non-responsible party get a break?
Francis seems to think so.

I'm becoming a bit confused myself.
What do YOU think?
You sure have studied enough...!
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay. Had a guest for dinner who just left.

I don't know for sure how to get back or if we can but I do think we need to take the words of Pope Francis to heart "Church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners" versus a torture chamber (my words). These are words that American Catholicism is just starting to think through and I hope Evangelicals and others will do the same. Jesus response to the woman caught in adultery (a mortal sin in the CC) was so gentle "Neither do I condemn you. No go and sin no more." He was harsh with the self-righteous Pharisees but not with anyone else that I can think of.

Pope Francis is trying to figure this out: how do we not condone an adulterous situation (remarriage after divorce) while at the same time be as gentle with the sinner as the Lord was with the adulterous woman? How do we remain relevant in the lives of people who we believe are living a sinful life? When I was a Baptist I heard about separating oneself from the sinful brother (comes from Matthew 18 I think). He's trying to get us to temper our judgement by showing tenderness to the sinner and don't make separation the immediate response.
 
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reba said:
I understand the Scriptures to be written to the average guy... Not just scholars . Something about making wise the simple... Yes there are deep subjects in Scripture that go over my head and i am thankful for the scholars ...


Here He is preaching to multitudes
Mat_5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat_19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Here He is talking to His buddy's
Mar 10:10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.


Could be Jesus just didn't think He should have to go into detail again..

Example... Johnny your room is a mess time to clean it up.

Johnny your room is a mess time to clean it up.

Clean your room :hips
Click to expand...

I like your way of thinking this through but I can't agree with what you wrote about not going into detail or limiting his speech for the sake of brevity. Until all the books of the Bible were pulled into a single composite book, the likelihood of a given church (1st century esp) having access to both Matthew and Mark was quite small. What confusion if you say were part of the church in Rome where Mark is the one gospel you have and you travel somewhere else where Matthew's gospel rules and you find the rules for divorce are different from one to the next.

The Catholic translation of Matthew I think resolves the quandry. Matthew was likely written to a mostly Hebrew audience who would be definitely interested in how to deal with those who might have contracted marriages that were acceptable to the Gentiles but forbidden by the Law. Mark was likely to have been written for a Gentile audience who wouldn't have cared much about the conflict with Jewish marriage laws.
 
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Let me add a complaint I've had about preachers, both RCC and Protestant. One could think from listening to the average American priest or pastor that homosexuality and abortion are the only sins God cares about. This has caused so much harm. 1st of all we've ripped into sinners who need the Lord the most and driven them off. 2nd of all we've probably made people think "I haven't had an abortion, I'm not gay, so I must be doing ok right?" and they take their other sins far too lightly. Has our myopic focus on these 2 issues but peoples' souls in jeopardy?
 
In a way I believe that we entered into "politics" too late." ![/QUOTE said:
Maybe we did enter politics late but worse, when we entered politics we focused on that and forgot evangelism. Someone converts to following Jesus and sinful habits often get taken care of. We focused on the politics of abortion and gay marriage and instead forgot to save souls. If people would convert we wouldn't need to even have a discussion about abortion and the like.
Click to expand...
 
gtrudeau said:
Sorry for the delay. Had a guest for dinner who just left.

I don't know for sure how to get back or if we can but I do think we need to take the words of Pope Francis to heart "Church is supposed to be a hospital for sinners" versus a torture chamber (my words). These are words that American Catholicism is just starting to think through and I hope Evangelicals and others will do the same. Jesus response to the woman caught in adultery (a mortal sin in the CC) was so gentle "Neither do I condemn you. No go and sin no more." He was harsh with the self-righteous Pharisees but not with anyone else that I can think of.

Pope Francis is trying to figure this out: how do we not condone an adulterous situation (remarriage after divorce) while at the same time be as gentle with the sinner as the Lord was with the adulterous woman? How do we remain relevant in the lives of people who we believe are living a sinful life? When I was a Baptist I heard about separating oneself from the sinful brother (comes from Matthew 18 I think). He's trying to get us to temper our judgement by showing tenderness to the sinner and don't make separation the immediate response.
Click to expand...
Don't apologize for delays!
You'll get plenty from me and others as well.

"Go and sin no more". Right. But those divorced and living with others are in a constant and on-going sin which is why it can't even be forgiven.

Do we realize that even if the CC allows a divorce, the two are STILL married? If we're going to say that marriage is a covenant, then we have to agree that it cannot be broken once God and the person take an oath to it. So what to do? After divorce, even a legitimate one, a person can get remarried in the CC, but are they REALLY free to remarry? I think not.

This is a very complicated issue and page 8 of Amoris Laetitia leaves much open to the individual priest as to how to treat a particular case. I have a problem with this.
I also have a problem with a person being alone all their life. I guess: I HAVE A PROBLEM!!

I wouldn't separate myself from a sinning brother. Jesus ate with them. How do you testify, or help them along, if you separate yourself? Jesus said He came not to condemn the world but to save it.
John 3:17

Maybe Mathew 18:17 could be one of those misunderstood passages.
I think it means to treat the offending brother as a tax collector and a Gentile just means that we are to witness to them, or to tell them the same things we would tell a tax collector or Gentile...IOW, treat them as a non-believer who needs to repent.
I believe this is what this verse means. Please give your opinion.

And, since I offer no solution to the problem, I'll stop here.
I will say that I hope in Jesus and that our fragile human nature will be considered
at judgement time, because we all need His love.
 
I married a divorced woman.
She was verbally and physically abused and thrown out of her house and divorced so his new lover could move in.
Whether Scripture addresses these issues or not, I believe God would not hold any of it against her.
He is a loving God and has not put us here to suffer evil.
I think looking at the law or the rules or whatever is not the right way to address harmful issues in a person's life.
It is so much deeper than that.
 
Allen Wynne said:
I married a divorced woman.
She was verbally and physically abused and thrown out of her house and divorced so his new lover could move in.
Whether Scripture addresses these issues or not, I believe God would not hold any of it against her.
He is a loving God and has not put us here to suffer evil.
I think looking at the law or the rules or whatever is not the right way to address harmful issues in a person's life.
It is so much deeper than that.
Click to expand...
I think I said this. It's a problem all around.
I mentioned about how a person can't be alone all their life.
Wonder what the O.P. thinks. Probably thinks along the same lines.
 
The rules for a Catholic is that if she had a sacramental 1st marriage and she didn't get an annulment then she can't remarry, even in the circumstances cited. I agree with those rules but I leave judgement up to God. I have no idea if a sacramental marriage existed (a new thread would be needed for that discussion), I have no idea of motivations involved, nothing. I do think there is a world of difference between someone who has tried to keep a marriage going and is unjustly abandoned versus a person who does everything they can to torpedo the marriage.

Assuming one or both spouses were Catholic, all I would suggest is contacting a good and compassionate Catholic priest, seek his opinion, and abstain from love making pending that conversation.
 
gtrudeau said:
The rules for a Catholic is that if she had a sacramental 1st marriage and she didn't get an annulment then she can't remarry, even in the circumstances cited. I agree with those rules but I leave judgement up to God. I have no idea if a sacramental marriage existed (a new thread would be needed for that discussion), I have no idea of motivations involved, nothing. I do think there is a world of difference between someone who has tried to keep a marriage going and is unjustly abandoned versus a person who does everything they can to torpedo the marriage.

Assuming one or both spouses were Catholic, all I would suggest is contacting a good and compassionate Catholic priest, seek his opinion, and abstain from love making pending that conversation.
Click to expand...
Contact a good and compassionate priest?
Find me one.
 
I said this before when this question had been addressed in the Ladies Lockeroom. Is divorce a sin? Yes. But like all of our other sins it was paid for in blood by Jesus Himself. That still doesn't excuse it though by any means. If your are having doubts and not sure whether or not you will be able to stay committed to that person, then don't get married. It's that simple.
 
Allen Wynne said:
Contact a good and compassionate priest?
Find me one.
Click to expand...

If you were living in the upper Midwest I could find you one very easy. All 4 priests that we've had in our parish's history have been the types you want to meet and I've known others too. They know their theology and are gentle and merciful in temperment. But word of warning, they will tell you what they think you need to hear and not necessarily what you want to hear.

If you want to email our priest any questions you have, I'll post his email address for you.

GT
 
gtrudeau said:
Pope Francis is trying to figure this out: how do we not condone an adulterous situation (remarriage after divorce) while at the same time be as gentle with the sinner as the Lord was with the adulterous woman?
Click to expand...
Well, it's something that the individual must understand for themselves. We don't cast judgment on anyone, but if they have the revelation of Jesus................then they should understand his words that he says to them. Like when he says, "go and sin no more".
 
gtrudeau said:
If you were living in the upper Midwest I could find you one very easy. All 4 priests that we've had in our parish's history have been the types you want to meet and I've known others too. They know their theology and are gentle and merciful in temperment. But word of warning, they will tell you what they think you need to hear and not necessarily what you want to hear.

If you want to email our priest any questions you have, I'll post his email address for you.

GT
Click to expand...
That is very kind of you , but I'll pass at this time.
 
What this really comes down to is loving God.
If you are a woman who's been cast out, are you bound to singleness, loneliness, and despair and that somehow is suppose to please God?
I don't think Scripture addresses this.
 
Jeremiah 3:8 kjv
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Somehow we have to see divorce in the / a broader context.

To just look at the relationship of men and women alone leaves us lacking.

What about getting a divorce from the (The) bridegroom?

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Jesus knew that he was dealing with a world of sinners. His statements about marriage are meant to underscore the sanctimony of a spiritual joining of two into one. His words are not meant to condemn the infidelity of any person apart from the flesh, but to set forth a spiritual standard indicative of God's Eternal Love. For elsewhere he says that to look upon another woman so as to lust after her, is also adultery. Wherefore when he was asked, "then who can be saved?"..., he replied that for mankind it is impossible, but for God anything is possible.
 
Jeremiah 3 should be read in its entirety.

You find that it is not just the external but the hidden man of the heart that God sees.

A bird seems to defy gravity while in flight, but the bones are hollow (devoid in resistance to avian flu).

We can look like we love God, but we sneak a peak at sin in the brackish water flowing where fresh water should be?

If we confess our sins all the way down into the hidden reaches of our being and (seek the redemption of Jesus) then the whole of us has a chance at judgement day.

I see through a glass darkly. Do I fly along and do not notice the hawk about to devour me? Do I fail to see a root of bitterness dipping into hidden bad things of the heart.

With the mind I may serve the law of Christ, but where is my flesh. Anyone able to see the wretched man? The man to be totally changed at the last trump.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
eddif said:
Jeremiah 3 should be read in its entirety.

You find that it is not just the external but the hidden man of the heart that God sees.

A bird seems to defy gravity while in flight, but the bones are hollow (devoid in resistance to avian flu).

We can look like we love God, but we sneak a peak at sin in the brackish water flowing where fresh water should be?

If we confess our sins all the way down into the hidden reaches of our being and (seek the redemption of Jesus) then the whole of us has a chance at judgement day.

I see through a glass darkly. Do I fly along and do not notice the hawk about to devour me? Do I fail to see a root of bitterness dipping into hidden bad things of the heart.

With the mind I may serve the law of Christ, but where is my flesh. Anyone able to see the wretched man? The man to be totally changed at the last trump.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
Click to expand...
Yes, yes, I see you.
 
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