What is the rule of faith for Christians?

[Hopeful]

Sin was already in the church.

Sin will never be in the church.
It is Christ's body and there will never be sin in Christ.
Those who sin, those who walk in darkness are "not of us".

It had been from the beginning.
This is the reason confessing to a priest finally came to be taught
because persons were still sinning after Baptism - much to the surprise of the early Christians.
It's history.

Thanks be to God we don't have to commit sin anymore !!!
Rebirth from God's seed, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and a divine nature saw to that.

John was worried about gnostics entering the church and taking it over.
I'm sure you could find out about this on the net if you so wish.

There is no difference between anyone who tries to pollute the body of Christ.
If I have learned about one decimator of a good conscience, I have learned abut all of them

Holy
Holy means to be set apart for service to God.
That's all it means.
You could find out about this too.

Yep, sanctification.
It happened at my death and burial with Christ, and when I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

 

[Bible]

1 Peter 2:9 can mean:

1. As members of the Body of Christ we take part in His work of reconciling God and man. This is a priestly work done by witnessing, testifying, and being "different" from others in such a way that it can be noticeable.

2. We are called to follow Jesus and to submit ourselves as sacrifices. Romans 12:1
Let us be a living and holy sacrifice --- acceptable to God.

I don't understand how praise can be a sacrifice - but I have no difficulty with your understanding.

Hebrews 13:15
By him therefore let us offer the sacrificeof praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

The apostles are appointed by Christ to preach the gospel matt 28:19-20 not the faithful

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 13:15
By him therefore let us offer the sacrificeof praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Thanks Bible.
But how can praise be sacrificial?

The apostles are appointed by Christ to preach the gospel matt 28:19-20 not the faithful

I know that Catholics feel no responsibility at all for witnessing or teaching or anything.
This has always bothered me. My Catholic friends ask me why I'm so worried about the soul of others
and all this talk of being saved or not being saved.
I think this is rather unfortunate.
I also do not agree that the church saves us...but we must save ourselves --- in the sense that salvation is personal.

 

[Bible]

Confession is called Reconciliation.

But the reconciliation you speak of just means that we again have a relationship with God, and the ministry is the proclamation of the good news.
"We work hard to persuade others"...2 Corinthians 5:11

Also 2 Corinthians 5:19
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 20:23 does seem to support confession.
I wonder why the Apostles never mentioned this and why the early church fathers did not.
James 5:16 does state to confess our trespasses one to the other...not to any particular person with authority.

Clement of Rome stated that the Lord wishes nothing of us except that confession be made to HIM.
ca 95AD

Do you know of any ECFs that spoke of confessing to a particular person?

There are two kinds of confession
Just to clarify
To be a martyr is called a confessor
We’re speaking of confession in of personal sins plural thats John 20:21-23 they had to hear them to know if you’re repentance is real and absolve you’re sins or not and held bound

Three things make up penance
Prayer alms and fasting

will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given” (ibid., 51[55]:20).
“But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]” (ibid., 51[55]:22).

---

APHRAAHAT THE PERSIAN SAGE​

“You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us” (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).

---

BASIL THE GREAT​

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles” (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).

---

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM​

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven” (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

---

AMBROSE OF MILAN​

“For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only” (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).

---

JEROME​

“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him” (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).

---

AUGUSTINE​

“When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance” (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).

 

[GodsGrace]

There are two kinds of confession
Just to clarify
To be a martyr is called a confessor
We’re speaking of confession in of personal sins plural thats John 20:21-23 they had to hear them to know if you’re repentance is real and absolve you’re sins or not and held bound

Three things make up penance
Prayer alms and fasting

will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given” (ibid., 51[55]:20).
“But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]” (ibid., 51[55]:22).

---

APHRAAHAT THE PERSIAN SAGE​

“You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us” (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).

---

BASIL THE GREAT​

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles” (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).

---

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM​

“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven” (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

---

AMBROSE OF MILAN​

“For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only” (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).

---

JEROME​

“If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him” (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).

---

AUGUSTINE​

“When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance” (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).

First I do believe the ECFs time ends at the Council of Nicea - but not everyone would agree.

However, by the time of the Fathers that you posted the sacrament of confession had already progressed and was present in the church.
History tells us that confession, as we know it today, did not exist in the early church.

The reason it had to be initiated is because it was believed that those baptized would no longer commit sin.
It was obvious that this was not happening and that persons were still sinning, just as John had stated in 1 John.
So it was decided that confession would become more as we know it today.

Simply, I can't accept the Fathers you posted regarding the sacrament of confession.

 

[Bible]

Confession is called Reconciliation.

But the reconciliation you speak of just means that we again have a relationship with God, and the ministry is the proclamation of the good news.
"We work hard to persuade others"...2 Corinthians 5:11

Also 2 Corinthians 5:19
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 20:23 does seem to support confession.
I wonder why the Apostles never mentioned this and why the early church fathers did not.
James 5:16 does state to confess our trespasses one to the other...not to any particular person with authority.

Clement of Rome stated that the Lord wishes nothing of us except that confession be made to HIM.
ca 95AD

Do you know of any ECFs that spoke of confessing to a particular person?

There are two kinds of confession
Just to clarify
To be a martyr is called a confessor
We’re speaking of confession in of personal sins plural thats John 20:21-23 they had to hear them to know if you’re repentance is real and absolve you’re sins or not and held bound

Indulgences were sold Bible...this was the main reason Luther protested.

(There is nothing in the Bible saying so, it is only an accusation by any enemy of christ
Luther was an occultist Rosa crucian
“Salvation by the shilling”
Another accusation since indulgences have nothing to do with salvation

I also have a problem with the idea of salvation being by God's mercy through His church.
How many go to church every Sunday and yet are far from God.
Still they repeat every Sunday:
"Look not upon our sins but on the faith of your church".

The NT does make it clear that we are INDIVIDUALLY responsible for our own salvation.
Jesus did not address a church, but man in general...
for instance Matthew 7:21-27. Where are Jesus' words addressed to a church?

Matthew 7:21-27
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


The above is addressed to individual persons.

Yes but salvation is only available in the church

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
The holy church is the ark of grace and salvation!

 

[GodsGrace]

There are two kinds of confession
Just to clarify
To be a martyr is called a confessor
We’re speaking of confession in of personal sins plural thats John 20:21-23 they had to hear them to know if you’re repentance is real and absolve you’re sins or not and held bound

(There is nothing in the Bible saying so, it is only an accusation by any enemy of christ
Luther was an occultist Rosa crucian
“Salvation by the shilling”
Another accusation since indulgences have nothing to do with salvation

Yes but salvation is only available in the church

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
The holy church is the ark of grace and salvation!

Putting Luther aside, I agree with everything you've stated except that salvation is only in the church.
What if a person is aware of God and loves God (see Romans 1:19....) but has never read a bible and has never attended any type of church.
Is that person still saved?

Tomorrow....

 

[Bible]

No, just your logic.

Christ is High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Just because the order of Melchizedek is different than the order of Aaron or the Levitical priesthood, doesn't mean we who are believers in Christ are not after the same order as Christ. (Ps. 110:4) doesn't prove anything you say. (1 Peter 2:9 ) says we are of a 'royal priesthood'. Why? What makes us a 'royal priesthood'? Because our priesthood is after the priesthood of Christ. Of Melchizedek.

We the Church are the very Body of Christ. Our priesthood must be the same as our Head in the Heavens is of.

Quantrill

Then why don’t you offer the sacrifice of Christ?

 

[Bible]

Spiritual anarchy and chaos!
Vs
God establishes “peace and order” thru obedience to hierarchical jurisdictional authority!

Peter matt 16:18
The apostles Matt 18:18
Jn 29:21-23 eph 2:20 eph 5:24 eph 5:32
Jn 15:1-5
Apostolic succession acts 1:26

Christ and his church are one acts 9:4 as Saul found out, he thought he was doing God’s will and acting righteously

 

[Quantrill]

Then why don’t you offer the sacrifice of Christ?

Christ has already been offered. To never be offered again.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Christ and his church are one acts 9:4 as Saul found out, he thought he was doing God’s will and acting righteously

Ah, you now resort to deception yourself.

In your post #(269), you present me as saying something I never said.

I would think there are rules against that...but perhaps not. Will be interesting to see.

Quantrill