What is the rule of faith for Christians?

[Hopeful]

Men.
Men are sinful and sin --- much to your disapproval.

Men not reborn of God's seed are sinful.

Some men in the church love God
Some men in the church do not.

You are entitled to 5th amendment rights to not incriminate yourself.
How can a member of Christ not love Christ?

Some only seek honor, glory and power.
These men have ruined the church---going back at lease 1,000 years.

They were not of "us" so they went out from "us". (1 John 2:19)

And it will explain why the CC is always a holy church...as all churches are.
even though many in it are not.

Our definitions of "holy" don't agree.

It's still the biggest denomination in the world (Christian)
and it has lasted two millennea.
This does not make all its doctrine correct, but I think it answers your question.

We disagree.

 

[Quantrill]

It's OK Quantrill --- understood.

Can we dig deeper?

James 5:15 says that if we have committed any sins, they will be forgiven.
This is stated re the elder annointing the sick, who will be prayed over by the elder.
It states that such a prayer said in faith will HEAL the sick person and make him well.
And, that sins will be forgiven if the person has committed any.

Doesn't this conflict with what we are taught and experience?
Annointing of the sick does not heal the sick person. I have experienced this in two different person.
Also, why would this forgive sins? Do we not ask God for forgiveness and receive it?

This almost sounds like John 20:23.

Any ideas?

My take on this is that, all healing is from God. So it is God's will first of all if one is healed.

I understand (James 5:15) to mean what it says. If there is one physically sick and calls for the elders to pray for him and anoint him with oil, and they do that, then he will be healed. And if his sickness was due to some sins he had done, they will be forgiven.

We are talking about one who is already believer. All his sins have been paid for in Christ. This forgiveness of sins is about his walk with the Lord in the present time. His sanctification.

I have pointed out, somewhere, Moses as an example. God didn't forgive Moses for striking the Rock when He told him to speak to the Rock. God said for that you will be judged. You will not enter the promised land. Moses sought to change God's mind about it, but God told him No. Moses still went to Heaven. But God would not forgive Moses on this earth, for that sin.

I agree it does sound like (John 20:23).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Your second paragraph above, highlighted by me, is what the CC teaches.
But it's more than just remembered...it's a remembrance...or it's like standing at the foot of the cross.

I am not against everything the Roman Church teaches. But because it has been around the longest, satan has had more time to develop many errors in it. Just as we see also now in the Protestant denominations.

I don't think I have any problem with your use of the word 'remembrance'.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

Men not reborn of God's seed are sinful.

You are entitled to 5th amendment rights to not incriminate yourself.
How can a member of Christ not love Christ?

They were not of "us" so they went out from "us". (1 John 2:19)


Our definitions of "holy" don't agree.

We disagree.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Just FYI, 1 John 2:19 is speaking about gnostics.

And I don't believe you know what HOLY means.

 

[GodsGrace]

My take on this is that, all healing is from God. So it is God's will first of all if one is healed.

I understand (James 5:15) to mean what it says. If there is one physically sick and calls for the elders to pray for him and anoint him with oil, and they do that, then he will be healed. And if his sickness was due to some sins he had done, they will be forgiven.

We are talking about one who is already believer. All his sins have been paid for in Christ. This forgiveness of sins is about his walk with the Lord in the present time. His sanctification.

I have pointed out, somewhere, Moses as an example. God didn't forgive Moses for striking the Rock when He told him to speak to the Rock. God said for that you will be judged. You will not enter the promised land. Moses sought to change God's mind about it, but God told him No. Moses still went to Heaven. But God would not forgive Moses on this earth, for that sin.

I agree it does sound like (John 20:23).

Quantrill

Thanks for the input.
There is just some stuff in the bible I can't understand and probably never will.
Maybe this healing was just for the Apostles - and the forgiving.

The forgiving could also mean that the Apostles, and the church leaders that came after them, had the power
to forgive and allow one to join the church - or to withhold forgiveness, for whatever reason.

I do believe there are some teachings we won 't really understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

My take on this is that, all healing is from God. So it is God's will first of all if one is healed.

I understand (James 5:15) to mean what it says. If there is one physically sick and calls for the elders to pray for him and anoint him with oil, and they do that, then he will be healed. And if his sickness was due to some sins he had done, they will be forgiven.

We are talking about one who is already believer. All his sins have been paid for in Christ. This forgiveness of sins is about his walk with the Lord in the present time. His sanctification.

I have pointed out, somewhere, Moses as an example. God didn't forgive Moses for striking the Rock when He told him to speak to the Rock. God said for that you will be judged. You will not enter the promised land. Moses sought to change God's mind about it, but God told him No. Moses still went to Heaven. But God would not forgive Moses on this earth, for that sin.

I agree it does sound like (John 20:23).

Quantrill

P.S. Agreed about the healing - it's not automatic.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not against everything the Roman Church teaches. But because it has been around the longest, satan has had more time to develop many errors in it. Just as we see also now in the Protestant denominations.

Amen to that!

I have the same problem with Catholics that don't understand Protestantism.
I try to help both sides...
LOL

I don't think I have any problem with your use of the word 'remembrance'.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Thanks for the input.
There is just some stuff in the bible I can't understand and probably never will.
Maybe this healing was just for the Apostles - and the forgiving.

The forgiving could also mean that the Apostles, and the church leaders that came after them, had the power
to forgive and allow one to join the church - or to withhold forgiveness, for whatever reason.

I do believe there are some teachings we won 't really understand.

You're quite welcome.

We are all always learning truths in the Bible. But it is the 'revealed' truth God has given, which means it is for us to know. There is truth that God has not revealed for us now and so we can't know it. (Deut. 29:29) And our learning of God and the Bible now is 'line upon line', a little at a time. Slowly building on what we know.

I believe the healing was for the Church. It is for the Body of Christ to exercise the minsitry of Christ through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12-14) Consider (Acts 1:1), a very important verse in this regard. "The former treatise have I made, O Theophilous, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach." We are told here that all that the Gospels said of the things Christ did and taught, were just the beginning of what He would do and teach. How are they just the beginning? Because the Church continues to do and teach through the ministry of the Spirit of Christ in the Church. Through the gifts given to each believer.

Quantrill

 

[crossnote]

Galatians 3:11 KJV
[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Bible]

Well, high and low are your terms. Not the Bibles. Not God's. Not Christ's. Chist is High Priest. We are priests after the same order. Christ is priest after the order of Melchizedek. So are the believers.

Good, then we agee. Christ's offering was done 'once' and for all. Before that offering believers looked forward to it. After that offering believers look back to it. It is never repeated, only remembered.

Quantrill

Simple logic
Christ is high priest!
In order to be high priest there must be low priests of the same order, or there is nothing to higher than or over

No they are two different orders
One the order of Melchizedek
Psalm 110:4
Offers the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ!

The other is the royal priesthood
1 pet 2:9
Offers the sacrifice of praise

 

[Bible]

Good question......since confession evolved and did not exist in the early church.

Yes it did Jn 20:21-23
2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 

[Bible]

My point is that any Covenant is between God and Man. Not between God and a church.


The reason there are other churches which you call sects founded by men is because the CC went astray as time went by.
It started out well but by the 1500's it was declaring who was saved and who was lost, charging to have sins forgiven and loved ones released from purgatory,
refused to forgive some persons and not based on there being no repentance but on other political reasons, having many tortured and/or put to death during the
inquisition - which lasted for hundreds of years.

Purgatory and confession are extremely defective doctrine and here's why:


Purgatory makes a person believe that they will end up in heaven even if they sin a lot, as long as they don't commit a mortal sin.
This is not what the gospels of Jesus teach us.
This could lead many to become lost.
We have only this life to decide where we want to spend eternity and live accordingly.
Some priests do not believe purgatory even exists.
Some priests believe it is an operation because of the love God has for us to give us a second chance.
This is nowhere to be found in scripture and is a harmful doctrine.



If a confession is not done properly, the person may leave confession believing they are forgiven, when, in reality, they are not.
A person may feel that he could sin and then be forgiven.
This leads a person to think less about sinning because they can always go to confession later.

Confession requires repentance

Indulgences

1st of all these are based on misunderstandings and accusations

Salvation has nothing to do with indulgences nor the forgiveness of sin!

Salvation is God’s mercy to us thru His church by grace!

An indulgence is a merit of Jesus Christ thru his blood passion and death! Jn 1:16 & 1:29

Cannot sell indulgences
There were indulgences granted to those who supported the building of saint peters, not selling, (donations) but if you chose to make a donation you could get an indulgence, but there were and are many other ways to get them without making a donation! Not a requirement

You did something and got a favorable response, like buying a dozen dognuts and get one free, they may accuse you cannot selling 13 but you actually only sold 12 and gave one free.

Salvation is of grace with mercy and the forgiveness of sins, but the temporal punishment due to sin Christ did not take away, just like he did not take away our sin nature and restore up to the state of innocence in the garden.

Example: a child breaks a window with his baseball, his father forgives him totally, but the child work and earn money to pay for the window, and we must pray, fast, alms, penance, carry our cross and practice Christian virtues to expiate the temporal punishment due to our sins, God provides for everything in His goodness and gives us ample means to do this, and it purifies our souls in this life or if not he also provides a means of purification in the next.

And we can pray for and do penance and gain indulgences for those being purified since they are in the communion of the saints like us and those already perfected in heaven!

 

[Hopeful]

You're entitled to your opinion.

Thank you.

Just FYI, 1 John 2:19 is speaking about gnostics.

Though gnostics are not labeled there, why does it not apply to all who depart from the faith?

And I don't believe you know what HOLY means.

It is the opposite of unholy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Simple logic
Christ is high priest!
In order to be high priest there must be low priests of the same order, or there is nothing to higher than or over

No they are two different orders
One the order of Melchizedek
Psalm 110:4
Offers the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ!

The other is the royal priesthood
1 pet 2:9
Offers the sacrifice of praise

1 Peter 2:9 can mean:

1. As members of the Body of Christ we take part in His work of reconciling God and man. This is a priestly work done by witnessing, testifying, and being "different" from others in such a way that it can be noticeable.

2. We are called to follow Jesus and to submit ourselves as sacrifices. Romans 12:1
Let us be a living and holy sacrifice --- acceptable to God.

I don't understand how praise can be a sacrifice - but I have no difficulty with your understanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes it did Jn 20:21-23
2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Confession is called Reconciliation.

But the reconciliation you speak of just means that we again have a relationship with God, and the ministry is the proclamation of the good news.
"We work hard to persuade others"...2 Corinthians 5:11

Also 2 Corinthians 5:19
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

John 20:23 does seem to support confession.
I wonder why the Apostles never mentioned this and why the early church fathers did not.
James 5:16 does state to confess our trespasses one to the other...not to any particular person with authority.

Clement of Rome stated that the Lord wishes nothing of us except that confession be made to HIM.
ca 95AD

Do you know of any ECFs that spoke of confessing to a particular person?

 

[GodsGrace]

Confession requires repentance

Indulgences

1st of all these are based on misunderstandings and accusations

Salvation has nothing to do with indulgences nor the forgiveness of sin!

Salvation is God’s mercy to us thru His church by grace!

An indulgence is a merit of Jesus Christ thru his blood passion and death! Jn 1:16 & 1:29

Cannot sell indulgences
There were indulgences granted to those who supported the building of saint peters, not selling, (donations) but if you chose to make a donation you could get an indulgence, but there were and are many other ways to get them without making a donation! Not a requirement

You did something and got a favorable response, like buying a dozen dognuts and get one free, they may accuse you cannot selling 13 but you actually only sold 12 and gave one free.

Salvation is of grace with mercy and the forgiveness of sins, but the temporal punishment due to sin Christ did not take away, just like he did not take away our sin nature and restore up to the state of innocence in the garden.

Example: a child breaks a window with his baseball, his father forgives him totally, but the child work and earn money to pay for the window, and we must pray, fast, alms, penance, carry our cross and practice Christian virtues to expiate the temporal punishment due to our sins, God provides for everything in His goodness and gives us ample means to do this, and it purifies our souls in this life or if not he also provides a means of purification in the next.

And we can pray for and do penance and gain indulgences for those being purified since they are in the communion of the saints like us and those already perfected in heaven!

Indulgences were sold Bible...this was the main reason Luther protested.

I also have a problem with the idea of salvation being by God's mercy through His church.
How many go to church every Sunday and yet are far from God.
Still they repeat every Sunday:
"Look not upon our sins but on the faith of your church".

The NT does make it clear that we are INDIVIDUALLY responsible for our own salvation.
Jesus did not address a church, but man in general...
for instance Matthew 7:21-27. Where are Jesus' words addressed to a church?

Matthew 7:21-27
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


The above is addressed to individual persons.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you.

Though gnostics are not labeled there, why does it not apply to all who depart from the faith?

Find out what John was worried about and had seen in his lifetime.
Find out what was happening in the church even before the year 90 when the gospel and Revelation were written.

Gnostics in the church
and
those leaving the faith
are two totally different concepts.

It is the opposite of unholy.

What does holy mean?

 

[Hopeful]

Find out what John was worried about and had seen in his lifetime.
Find out what was happening in the church even before the year 90 when the gospel and Revelation were written.

Gnostics in the church
and
those leaving the faith
are two totally different concepts.


What does holy mean?

I feel that John was worried about sin creeping into the church/body of Christ.
He went to great lengths to discern those who walk in the darkness and those who walk in the light.
Which do you suppose the sinners walk in, even today?

HOLY?
Clean in the eyes of God.
No sinners there...

 

[Quantrill]

Simple logic
Christ is high priest!
In order to be high priest there must be low priests of the same order, or there is nothing to higher than or over

No they are two different orders
One the order of Melchizedek
Psalm 110:4
Offers the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ!

The other is the royal priesthood
1 pet 2:9
Offers the sacrifice of praise

No, just your logic.

Christ is High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Just because the order of Melchizedek is different than the order of Aaron or the Levitical priesthood, doesn't mean we who are believers in Christ are not after the same order as Christ. (Ps. 110:4) doesn't prove anything you say. (1 Peter 2:9 ) says we are of a 'royal priesthood'. Why? What makes us a 'royal priesthood'? Because our priesthood is after the priesthood of Christ. Of Melchizedek.

We the Church are the very Body of Christ. Our priesthood must be the same as our Head in the Heavens is of.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel that John was worried about sin creeping into the church/body of Christ.
He went to great lengths to discern those who walk in the darkness and those who walk in the light.
Which do you suppose the sinners walk in, even today?

HOLY?
Clean in the eyes of God.
No sinners there...

Sin was already in the church.
It had been from the beginning.
This is the reason confessing to a priest finally came to be taught
because persons were still sinning after Baptism - much to the surprise of the early Christians.
It's history.

John was worried about gnostics entering the church and taking it over.
I'm sure you could find out about this on the net if you so wish.

Holy

Holy means to be set apart for service to God.
That's all it means.
You could find out about this too.